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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #51  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:10 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Another thing I came across was that the solenoid activated injectors on the audis have a high failure rate, that will be expensive in the coming years.
Sounds like Audi may be on track to enhance its reputation for longer term mechanical issues....
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  #52  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:25 AM
BradF BradF is offline
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[QUOTE=wouvlfe;4061146]

moreover, my loaner was a 328 and now i know why i paid about $6k more for the 335

QUOTE]

Yea, $6k for constantly looming HPFP failure and inevitable softward-driven turbo lag sounds like a bargain to me....
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  #53  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:26 AM
BradF BradF is offline
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OP Wrote:

moreover, my loaner was a 328 and now i know why i paid about $6k more for the 335



Yea, $6k for constantly looming HPFP failure and inevitable softward-driven turbo lag sounds like a bargain to me....
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  #54  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:27 AM
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thekurgan thekurgan is offline
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Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
The problem with this assumption is that you assume only one failure mode. BMW's pumps are higher pressure than the others and will need better tolerances, and assembly. So sometimes it is assembly and sometimes it can be fuel quality. The BMW system is a more recently advanced system by bosch/siemens. It uses piezoelectrics to overcome some of the more serious issues of previous designs(like carbon deposits that will lead to early engine death), and it appears to have growing pains like all the others, but the issues are different. The piezoelectrics apparently require higher pressure pumps to control the fuel better(and they are better), but that probably means that fuel quality and part tolerances must be within spec or the pumps will fail. VW GTI aftermarket pumps develop higher pressures and speak to this very issue, that tolerances must be higher(and it goes without saying that the fuel must not fail specs). Most people dont realize that much of the gas you buy actually fails the shipping spec, its NEVER tested for spec at the pump.
Sorry man, I'm not buying that excuse. Folks that pay $50k for a vehicle shouldn't be the beta testers for something knowingly inadequate for its intended design. The pumps are crap and BMW should have done better R&D before and during these events where people are stranded.
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  #55  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:29 AM
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330ximd 330ximd is offline
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Yea, $6k for constantly looming HPFP failure and inevitable softward-driven turbo lag sounds like a bargain to me....
I have a colleague who just got a 328i...beautiful car. I don't know if any car is perfect though. I think the 335i is amazing, but there are improvments that need to be met. But all in all, BMW has done a great job with the warranties at least. Designwise, the HPFP is a big fail for U.S. gasoline cars.
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  #56  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:31 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Originally Posted by desertdriver View Post
Yeah, I found that it is mechanical, but cant find a schematic. the BMW pump has 200bar pressure and its failure does not end up in destroying the engine like the VW audi/mazda products that run at only 130 bar. Higher pressures are of course going to be more difficult for the seals.

Its also interesting that everyones gasoline direct injection is NOT the same(check out wiki on direct injection, there are different systems by mitsubishi, toyota mazda, VW, and BMW(siemens/bosch). Toyota uses a combination of direct and port injection, VW/audi design uses solenoid control valves to meter fuel and BMWs design(pioneered by bosh and siemens) is the most precise and accurate using piezoelectric injectors. VW and audis patent(developed in 2000) admits to excessive carbon deposit formation that is due in part to fuel delivery control problems(they allude to solutions including better control of fuel delivery, like shutting it off before ignition). The BMW direct injection does just that with piezo electrics which are MUCH more precise at high speed than solenoid valves, but appear to require 50% higher pump pressures. So, it appears that the new direct injection system used in the BMW products is better at controlling carbon deposits, and preventing catastrophic engine failure, but runs at higher pressure and has more fuel pump failure issues. Clearly the system used by BMW is the most advanced, but the most recent(2006), and hence the issues. But that is not stopping the bosch/siemens design from going into the Ferrari california.

If you go back, each of these systems has had issues and most were tested in other markets for a few years, most of the others still have the carbon deposit issues. And I dont buy that those carbon deposit issues are mainly egr issues, as aromatic deposits on the valve stems(cited by vw/audi as most common) are perhaps THE major defining issue, and the aromatic content of motor oils is alot lower than the aromatic contents of gas(up to 25-30%). As a matter of fact, the aromatic contents of synthetic motor oils are just about zero, NADA. Im betting those aromatic carbon deposits are just unburnt fuel around the exhaust valve stem area due to poor control of the fuel delivery. Direct injection technology looks to be going forward and there are growing pains. I'll take less carbon deposits and no catastrophic engine failure rather than a more reliable fuel pump.

If anyone finds something interesting on this(to the contrary or otherwise), I'd be interested to learn more.
Hi DD: Here is my theory regarding piezo injectors vs. solenoids in relation to fuel pressure requirements. Again, this is conjecture on my part but I believe it to be valid.
Originally injectors were forced open by fuel pressure. A pulse of high pressure fuel would hit an injector and then force a pintle up off its seat where it was held bya spring. When the spring pressure exceeded fuel pressure the pintle would hit the seat and seal the injector. This was common on diesels and early (injected) Corvettes.
Then along came variations of electro magnetic (solenoid) injectors. An electric signal would energize a solenoid which would lift the pintle off the seat. The fuel pressure to the injector was constant (in the 40 to 60 psi range) and fuel would spray out of the injector as long as the injector was open due to the electric signal. This was "invented" for early throttle body systems, and various iterations are what are most commonly used today to spray fuel into each intake runner.
Along comes direct injection. Now each injector must spray into a pressurized cylinder (the piston is on the compression stroke) and then not open when the mixture explodes! The need for very high injection pressures is obvious. Springs inside injectors would no longer be sufficient to overcome the very high combustion pressures. Some genius figures out that a piezo electric circuit could do the job because then the pintle would be 'vibrated' off the seat and allow fuel past it. Unfortunately the resultant opening would be far smaller than when a pintle is lifted with a solenoid. The only way to increase flow would be to increase the fuel pressure and that's how we wound up with 2000 psi pumps.
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  #57  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:52 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Originally Posted by 330ximd View Post
I have a colleague who just got a 328i...beautiful car. I don't know if any car is perfect though. I think the 335i is amazing, but there are improvments that need to be met. But all in all, BMW has done a great job with the warranties at least. Designwise, the HPFP is a big fail for U.S. gasoline cars.
Yep, it sure is. On every fanboy site on the internet. But not out in the rest of the world where it is a non issue.
I knew about the early failures and I still bought my 335i in late '07. I'd buy it today if I didn't already have one.
I'd guess everyone who has ever visited Bimmerfest has to be aware of the failure rate, very few have said they are not going to buy as a result (yes, some have). I agree that more field testing might have picked up this (excessive) failure rate. Now that BMW is aware of the defect it has extended the warranty to ten (!) years and is replacing pumps on cars as they rotate in for service. The next step may be a recall letter. That will come out after someone gets hurt and the NTSB gets involved, but I hope they do it before then.
My gut feel is that BMW still is unsure that they have a 99.97% "good" replacement pump to install yet and that's why they have not acted even more dramatically.
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  #58  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:53 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Hi DD: Here is my theory regarding piezo injectors vs. solenoids in relation to fuel pressure requirements. Again, this is conjecture on my part but I believe it to be valid.
Originally injectors were forced open by fuel pressure. A pulse of high pressure fuel would hit an injector and then force a pintle up off its seat where it was held bya spring. When the spring pressure exceeded fuel pressure the pintle would hit the seat and seal the injector. This was common on diesels and early (injected) Corvettes.
Then along came variations of electro magnetic (solenoid) injectors. An electric signal would energize a solenoid which would lift the pintle off the seat. The fuel pressure to the injector was constant (in the 40 to 60 psi range) and fuel would spray out of the injector as long as the injector was open due to the electric signal. This was "invented" for early throttle body systems, and various iterations are what are most commonly used today to spray fuel into each intake runner.
Along comes direct injection. Now each injector must spray into a pressurized cylinder (the piston is on the compression stroke) and then not open when the mixture explodes! The need for very high injection pressures is obvious. Springs inside injectors would no longer be sufficient to overcome the very high combustion pressures. Some genius figures out that a piezo electric circuit could do the job because then the pintle would be 'vibrated' off the seat and allow fuel past it. Unfortunately the resultant opening would be far smaller than when a pintle is lifted with a solenoid. The only way to increase flow would be to increase the fuel pressure and that's how we wound up with 2000 psi pumps.
Sounds very reasonable, and I might add that the velocity of the piezo direct injection has to faster and higher pressure for the injection of a fixed combustion volume in a shorter time period. Higher velocity/pressure also aids in more effective fuel nebulization. In audis patent they allude to the control issues of solenoids for these high speed events. In my field, piezoelectrics are way faster responding than solenoids, so I can understand that fuel delivery would be better controlled, but velocities(and pressures) would have to be higher to deliver the same fuel volume in less time. I like the new piezo assisted direct injection in principle, but as with all the others, issues arise with new technology. And in this case, it appears that those issues are seal integrity, fuel specification adherence, and manufacturing tolerances.

As for alcohol in gas, we dont even know what that means for longevity in port injected cars yet, but I expect longevity will suffer as it is bad science/engineering. Decreasing the stability of the fuel properties cant be good engineering. Politics often leads to bad science, thats not a suprise to me. I suppose it could be worse, the forced euro fleet mileages are making the engine management systems much more complex to "beat the ratings" and probably will hurt longevity with excessive lean burn, programmmed shutting off of oil and coolant pumps and varying combustion conditions without consideration of engine longevity.
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  #59  
Old 04-06-2009, 12:40 PM
swartzentruber swartzentruber is offline
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As for alcohol in gas, we dont even know what that means for longevity in port injected cars yet, but I expect longevity will suffer as it is bad science/engineering. Decreasing the stability of the fuel properties cant be good engineering. Politics often leads to bad science, thats not a surprise to me.
Thanks for the discussion on engineering guys. Very interesting. I'm just hoping we don't become even more guinea pigs in ethanol testing, with the recent discussion on raising the ethanol content to 12-13%. I guess that could help prove the theory, if the failure rate suddenly shoots up. Supposedly, the ONLY auto manufacturer supporting this is Ford.

Incidentally, have either of you researched the VW PDI engine (pumpe duese injected or something like that), used approximately in their 2004 - 2007 diesels? I have some interest in this topic, having owned a 2004 jetta wagon for approximately a year, before selling it after I realized I didn't drive enough for a diesel. It's relavance to this topic is that VW (in my understanding) used an extremely high pressure fuel pump to inject the diesel. They spent a lot of money on this engineering approach, as a means of achieving better emissions, before abandoning it in 2007 to go to the more common common-rail technology. I think those might have been Bosch injectors, so I wonder if the engineering approaches might have been similar. On the other hand, I'm sure diesel and regular engine differences are substantial. Still, the long term longevity of those injectors might shed light on what this engine might see.

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/ne...m-pd-tdi/1591/

Last edited by swartzentruber; 04-06-2009 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Insert link
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  #60  
Old 04-06-2009, 01:44 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Thanks for the discussion on engineering guys. Very interesting. I'm just hoping we don't become even more guinea pigs in ethanol testing, with the recent discussion on raising the ethanol content to 12-13%. I guess that could help prove the theory, if the failure rate suddenly shoots up. Supposedly, the ONLY auto manufacturer supporting this is Ford.

Incidentally, have either of you researched the VW PDI engine (pumpe duese injected or something like that), used approximately in their 2004 - 2007 diesels? I have some interest in this topic, having owned a 2004 jetta wagon for approximately a year, before selling it after I realized I didn't drive enough for a diesel. It's relavance to this topic is that VW (in my understanding) used an extremely high pressure fuel pump to inject the diesel. They spent a lot of money on this engineering approach, as a means of achieving better emissions, before abandoning it in 2007 to go to the more common common-rail technology. I think those might have been Bosch injectors, so I wonder if the engineering approaches might have been similar. On the other hand, I'm sure diesel and regular engine differences are substantial. Still, the long term longevity of those injectors might shed light on what this engine might see.

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/ne...m-pd-tdi/1591/

I dont think the high pressures are an issue for diesel as it self lubricates the seals. Because diesel is thicker viscosity, the film strength is greater/film is thicker so the pump tolerances are not likely to be as big an issue either.
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  #61  
Old 04-06-2009, 01:50 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Thanks for the discussion on engineering guys. Very interesting. I'm just hoping we don't become even more guinea pigs in ethanol testing, with the recent discussion on raising the ethanol content to 12-13%. I guess that could help prove the theory, if the failure rate suddenly shoots up. Supposedly, the ONLY auto manufacturer supporting this is Ford.
here is a link with a brief discussion on the problems with ethanolized gas:

http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm

some of the problems include:

"Vehicles stored with gasoline containing Ethanol in the fuel tank are more likely to have problems with the alcohol causing component corrosion, deterioration, and breakdown.

Special plastics, corrosion resistant stainless steel and other more expensive components must be used in any component that touches fuel containing alcohol.

Ethanol is much more hygroscopic than regular gasoline. This holding of dissolved or suspended water can lead to more component corrosion; and gum, varnish, and carbon deposit formation problems.

Ethanol is not as volatile as gasoline, therefore as the percentage of alcohol increases; the engine becomes progressively more difficult to start in cold weather conditions.

Ethanol is a strong solvent and has been used by industry for hundreds of years to clean various types of contaminants and to dissolve and suspend solids.

Gasoline with dissolved solids (plastics, styrene?s, rubber materials, etc.) that will tend to reform as the fuel evaporates. The reforming of the dissolved material shows up as deposits in the fuel system and engine. This material has shown up as deposits on the throttle plate, injector?s piston crowns, and exhaust valves. It is also a problem with PCV?s systems and turbochargers.

There is also a problem where Gasoline, MTBE, Ethanol, and Water come together. This combination can cause formations of a thick, gooey, black material that wreaks havoc on fuel systems."


Yeah ethanol is no problem for the politicians, just the auto manufacturers and auto owners. Since californians and many other states have been using MTBE in lieu of ethanol until a few years ago, the "ethanol effect" will probably rear its head in the next few years.
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  #62  
Old 04-06-2009, 06:24 PM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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All the more reason I'm sticking with 'top tier' gas, specifically Shell 93 Octane. Yes the pump says "May contain up to 10% ethanol." but I figure they earned the top tier rating by meeting quality standards which other refiners can not.
Here we go with the "all gasoline comes out of the same pipeline" argument again. And all oil comes out of the dirt. It's what happens to it between the dirt and the nozzle which makes all the difference to me.
Info below. Be sure to click on the internal links.
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
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  #63  
Old 04-06-2009, 06:26 PM
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OP Wrote:

moreover, my loaner was a 328 and now i know why i paid about $6k more for the 335



Yea, $6k for constantly looming HPFP failure and inevitable softward-driven turbo lag sounds like a bargain to me....
Sounds like sour grapes from a 328i owner to me.
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  #64  
Old 04-06-2009, 06:44 PM
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Here's a little more information behind the politics as well as the technology of peizoelectric injectors from Bosch's point of view.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...n%26ie%3DUTF-8

A piezo crystal is an interesting thing. If you hit it with an electric current it vibrates. If you vibrate it, it will generate an electric current. This phenomenon has resulted in another very interesting application of peizocrystals in modern engines- as knock sensors. Exactly how they work is beyond my understanding. By exactly, I mean I still don't know precisely why when you vibrate a crystal it can give off electrons.
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  #65  
Old 04-06-2009, 07:09 PM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Here's a little more information behind the politics as well as the technology of peizoelectric injectors from Bosch's point of view.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...n%26ie%3DUTF-8

A piezo crystal is an interesting thing. If you hit it with an electric current it vibrates. If you vibrate it, it will generate an electric current. This phenomenon has resulted in another very interesting application of peizocrystals in modern engines- as knock sensors. Exactly how they work is beyond my understanding. By exactly, I mean I still don't know precisely why when you vibrate a crystal it can give off electrons.
Yeah piezoelectrics are very interesting. It a reversible process where an applied electric field causes a physical deformation of crystals to align molecular dipoles within the crystal. And conversely deforming the material(an applied stress) causes a change in the arrangement of molecular dipoles that leads to a voltage. You might compare it to many small magnets that are realigned in a field, or that exert a potential when their poles are changed from the lowest energy configuration by physical manipulation.

http://www.aurelienr.com/electronique/piezo/piezo.pdf
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  #66  
Old 04-06-2009, 09:29 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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All the more reason I'm sticking with 'top tier' gas, specifically Shell 93 Octane. Yes the pump says "May contain up to 10% ethanol." but I figure they earned the top tier rating by meeting quality standards which other refiners can not.
Here we go with the "all gasoline comes out of the same pipeline" argument again. And all oil comes out of the dirt. It's what happens to it between the dirt and the nozzle which makes all the difference to me.
Info below. Be sure to click on the internal links.
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
Top Tier does nothing to control the quality of the gas as it leaves the pump on its way into your tank. Top Tier gas could be put into the service station's tanks and if there is a wee bit of water leaking into the tank, the gas would fail specification.

Your best bet is to use Top Tier gas that is dispensed from a new station (less chance of water ingestion) that does a lot of business (high turn-over of inventory). If you have to choose between Top Tier gas from an older lower volume station or non-Top Tier gas from a new, high volume station, I would go with the new, high volume station and throw in a pint of Techron....
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  #67  
Old 04-07-2009, 12:39 AM
richard1138 richard1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by BradF View Post

Yea, $6k for constantly looming HPFP failure and inevitable softward-driven turbo lag sounds like a bargain to me....
Softward-driven turbo lag? What is that? And does HPFP failure loom any more constantly than whatever failures affect the 328i?
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  #68  
Old 04-07-2009, 05:06 AM
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Softward-driven turbo lag? What is that? And does HPFP failure loom any more constantly than whatever failures affect the 328i?
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  #69  
Old 04-07-2009, 08:08 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Top Tier does nothing to control the quality of the gas as it leaves the pump on its way into your tank. Top Tier gas could be put into the service station's tanks and if there is a wee bit of water leaking into the tank, the gas would fail specification.

Your best bet is to use Top Tier gas that is dispensed from a new station (less chance of water ingestion) that does a lot of business (high turn-over of inventory). If you have to choose between Top Tier gas from an older lower volume station or non-Top Tier gas from a new, high volume station, I would go with the new, high volume station and throw in a pint of Techron....
This is spot on, the gas properties deteriorate from the time the gas is blended and shipped, regardless of the tier. With ethanolized gas this happens much faster. Top tier gas is recommended though, as the blending process is much better controlled, meaning less carbon deposit froming garbage(stuff that doesnt like to burn) in the gas. My pet station is a brand new shell station(with high N gas) about 1 mile from a high volume interstate. I have used this station or another shell station near the job >95% of the time to fill up since I bought my car. I am not superstitious, I used to work for Exxon corporate R&D(before it became exxon mobil). I remember they used to test ethanolized gas on car engines, and the results were bad enough that no one wanted any of that gas in their car. MTBE was much less damaging to engines in long term wear, but we all know MTBE is bad stuff for the ground water. I would stay away from any station with old tanks or low customer volume as these tanks have a high risk of accumulated water. Another point might be to find out when the monthly gas delivery is, and DONT buy any 5 days prior to delivery as the tanks will be low and hence the water concentration in the will probably be high. If I lived in a humid state, I would also never run my gas tank in my car low, try not to hit 1/4 and top it off frequently. Anyone who thinks that water in gas is not an issue with all engines is a fool. But if you lease, it probably wont hurt you, just the next guy who owns the car.
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  #70  
Old 04-07-2009, 09:41 AM
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This is spot on, the gas properties deteriorate from the time the gas is blended and shipped, regardless of the tier. With ethanolized gas this happens much faster. Top tier gas is recommended though, as the blending process is much better controlled, meaning less carbon deposit froming garbage(stuff that doesnt like to burn) in the gas. My pet station is a brand new shell station(with high N gas) about 1 mile from a high volume interstate. I have used this station or another shell station near the job >95% of the time to fill up since I bought my car. I am not superstitious, I used to work for Exxon corporate R&D(before it became exxon mobil). I remember they used to test ethanolized gas on car engines, and the results were bad enough that no one wanted any of that gas in their car. MTBE was much less damaging to engines in long term wear, but we all know MTBE is bad stuff for the ground water. I would stay away from any station with old tanks or low customer volume as these tanks have a high risk of accumulated water. Another point might be to find out when the monthly gas delivery is, and DONT buy any 5 days prior to delivery as the tanks will be low and hence the water concentration in the will probably be high. If I lived in a humid state, I would also never run my gas tank in my car low, try not to hit 1/4 and top it off frequently. Anyone who thinks that water in gas is not an issue with all engines is a fool. But if you lease, it probably wont hurt you, just the next guy who owns the car.
I don't doubt the facts as you give them. What I wonder about is the extent of damage being caused by ethanol which you suggest. I own a garage. We regularly maintain over 1200 cars (cars we see many times during the year). Honestly, I cannot recall a single problem which we have traced to 'bad gas' which was not immediately apparent (liquid water sucked up by the tank pump and ending up rusting/fouling injectors, 'crud' dispensed by gas stations fouling up fuel systems, etc.). And even these instances might number under five in the past few years. I have many BMWs pushing 300K miles, as well as other premium marques with similarly high mileage. There's just nothing I can see which is resulting from ethanol in otherwise good gas.
I'm no fan of ethanol. To me it's like I have to pay more money for less mileage. From my perspective to attribute all things bad to ethanol though is going too far. We will eventually find out if ethanol is the big bogeyman in relation to HPFP failures...
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  #71  
Old 04-07-2009, 10:59 AM
desertdriver desertdriver is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
I don't doubt the facts as you give them. What I wonder about is the extent of damage being caused by ethanol which you suggest. I own a garage. We regularly maintain over 1200 cars (cars we see many times during the year). Honestly, I cannot recall a single problem which we have traced to 'bad gas' which was not immediately apparent (liquid water sucked up by the tank pump and ending up rusting/fouling injectors, 'crud' dispensed by gas stations fouling up fuel systems, etc.). And even these instances might number under five in the past few years. I have many BMWs pushing 300K miles, as well as other premium marques with similarly high mileage. There's just nothing I can see which is resulting from ethanol in otherwise good gas.
I'm no fan of ethanol. To me it's like I have to pay more money for less mileage. From my perspective to attribute all things bad to ethanol though is going too far. We will eventually find out if ethanol is the big bogeyman in relation to HPFP failures...
Yeah ethanol isnt responsible for engine failure due to long oil change schedules. When cars are abused by running them hard before they are warm, its not an ethanol problem. But high ethanol gas has only been widespread year round for about a decade, and even for part of that decade, MTBE was used instead in many states. Most of those 300K mile BMW's havent seen all that much ethanol unless their drivers have been putting on 30K miles a year. Most of what I hear at Exxon was about carbon deposits found when engines running on ethanolized gas are torn down, and the parts wearing faster on those engines, presumably to higher heat. Fuel injector replacement is pretty common at around 100K on many brands or so, and its a bit pricey. I understand the 335's piezo injectors are among the most pricey you can buy. I'll bet a good part of that is due to ethanol drawing water into gas or just old gas. Where I live, I doubt much water gets into gas as there isnt much water in the desert.

I am pretty confident that BMW/Bosch has done the right thing with the basic pump design. A cam driven HPFP like the audi/mazda one will initially be more reliable, but eventually it need a camshaft replacement as the lobe wears, and that will be kind of pricey. I understand that the HPFP wear energies on that camshaft are way higher than the valve system. And if you do not replace the parts when needed, the whole engine is at risk, kaboom.

I understand why leasers of 335's are pissed as they are impacted by this HPFP design, but long term owners will be happy when their cars have 150-200K while the audis/mazdas either cost$$$ in 100K+ maintenance or self destruct their engines due to lack of maintenance.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:07 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
I don't doubt the facts as you give them. What I wonder about is the extent of damage being caused by ethanol which you suggest. I own a garage. We regularly maintain over 1200 cars (cars we see many times during the year). Honestly, I cannot recall a single problem which we have traced to 'bad gas' which was not immediately apparent (liquid water sucked up by the tank pump and ending up rusting/fouling injectors, 'crud' dispensed by gas stations fouling up fuel systems, etc.). And even these instances might number under five in the past few years. I have many BMWs pushing 300K miles, as well as other premium marques with similarly high mileage. There's just nothing I can see which is resulting from ethanol in otherwise good gas.
I'm no fan of ethanol. To me it's like I have to pay more money for less mileage. From my perspective to attribute all things bad to ethanol though is going too far. We will eventually find out if ethanol is the big bogeyman in relation to HPFP failures...
I bolded the operative phrase in your post. The critical distinction is the quality of the gas. If the gas meets specification as it leaves the retail pump (and there is no water in the tank from a previous visit to the 'wrong side of the tracks'), ethanol will likely have a minimal impact on HPFP wear.

One more data point - I asked the SA at the dealer that sold me the 2006 M3 how many cars with N54 engines he sees in a month. The answer was 'around a 100'. I then asked of the 100 N54s, how many need a new HPFP? The answer - 1. A 1% failure rate is not a problem 'solved' failure rate.... The problem continues.
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  #73  
Old 04-07-2009, 11:22 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
I bolded the operative phrase in your post. The critical distinction is the quality of the gas. If the gas meets specification as it leaves the retail pump (and there is no water in the tank from a previous visit to the 'wrong side of the tracks'), ethanol will likely have a minimal impact on HPFP wear.

One more data point - I asked the SA at the dealer that sold me the 2006 M3 how many cars with N54 engines he sees in a month. The answer was 'around a 100'. I then asked of the 100 N54s, how many need a new HPFP? The answer - 1. A 1% failure rate is not a problem 'solved' failure rate.... The problem continues.
Point understood.
In regard to the 1% anecdotal failure rate, you are correct that that does not indicate the problem is "solved". However, a 1% failure rate is not anywhere near as high as many of us had suspected. I'll take my chances with a 1% probability that my car will go into 'limp home' mode. After all, I've been known to buy lottery tickets with a 99.99999% failure rate!
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:28 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Point understood.
In regard to the 1% anecdotal failure rate, you are correct that that does not indicate the problem is "solved". However, a 1% failure rate is not anywhere near as high as many of us had suspected. I'll take my chances with a 1% probability that my car will go into 'limp home' mode. After all, I've been known to buy lottery tickets with a 99.99999% failure rate!
Can't help on the Lotto tickets, as I have had a 100% failure rate on that endeavor....

According to the SA, the current 1% failure rate is down from where it was last year - the replacement/failure rate got as high as 10 HPFPs a month....
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:26 PM
KTB13 KTB13 is offline
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1% sounds pretty good to me. I think if they had extended the warranty (not sure if this includes the '09s though) before I signed my paperwork I would have bought instead. The 335i is an amazing car - and it sounds like the dealers (generally) take pretty good care of their customers so frankly getting a HPFP replaced doesn't sound like the end of the world to me...
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