Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)

E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-23-2009, 06:32 AM
kotik kotik is offline
Registered User
Location: new jersey
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: mercury
335i vs C6

hey all,

so i sold my mazdaspeed 3 (with lots of mods). Now i'm deploying in July, and coming back in January. I'm planning to buy either a C6 vette (07+) or a bmw 335/135(used, depending on the price). For C6, i'm mainly concerned with getting an 07 (or if 08's prices go down than that). For 335/135, i'm concerned about oil cooler and sport package. I will have either as a daily driver. Which one do you guy's think would be a better pick, and why? i know this is a bmw forum, that's why your opinions mean a lot to me.
As far as the price, i'm hoping for $25k(january 2010) and I want a car that still has a warranty.
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:21 AM
carve's Avatar
carve carve is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: I live in a house
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 720
Mein Auto: 07 335i E90
I also had it narrowed down to the same two cars (07 C6 vs 07 335i). I went to a carmax and drove them back-to-back. At this altitude (~1 mile) the Vette was just barely faster, and didn't feel as strong until it was revved up, although it should be different in NJ. While the Vette was sexy as hell, the BMW is definitely classier and portrays a more "responsible" image that I prefer (think 335i=Scarlett Johansen and Vette=...I don't know...Paris Hilton). The 335i was also FAR more practical day-to-day (nicer interior, 4 useable seats, doesn't bottom out the spoiler on every driveway). What surprised me the most was the intangible "feel". The bimmer, even though it's limits are probably a bit lower and is about the same size, was WAY easier to drive hard and "felt" smaller. Far more confidence inspiring...much better road "feel". I'd always heard that about bimmers, but never understood what any of that meant until driving it back-to-back with the Vette.

Also, if you're into modding, the bimmer, being a turbo, will be much easier to boost up to being at least as fast as the Vette for just a few hundred bucks. Thetruthaboutcars.com has also done a comparisson test between these two cars, which I'd recommend you read.

One of the advantages of the Vette is it's stone-age simple powertrain with 7/100k warranty, which should be dependable. However, I was able to find a "certified pre-owned" 335i for CHEAPER than I could find a C6. CPO comes with a 6 year, 100k warranty that covers about everything but some of the electronics.

You can't make a wrong choice here, and this is an enviable dilema to be in. It is a still tough decision (although a little easier at altitude where the turbos are nice), but I'd recommend a CPO 07 335i. It's just as fun to drive, classier, and makes for a better daily driver, which is what you'll use it for. The Vette is flashier and a bit faster stock. Make sure you find a 335i with the sport package and, if you plan on driving hard for extended periods, an oil cooler. All the manuals with sport and 18" wheels have the oil cooler. Automatics with sport and 18" have it if they were built 3-07 or later, although quite a few earlier ones have coolers retrofitted, so be sure to ask.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:33 AM
carve's Avatar
carve carve is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: I live in a house
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 720
Mein Auto: 07 335i E90
Here's the article...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ame...2008-bmw-335i/

I had another thought about "image". Both cars have a performance-car image. However, a lot of people associate the Vette with old-guy white-trash sleaze-bag with a gold chain, and the bimmer with douche-bag yuppie jerk. Since I really am a yuppie jerk, the choice was easy for me
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-23-2009, 10:55 AM
kotik kotik is offline
Registered User
Location: new jersey
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: mercury
thank you very much for your answer. It was very detailed and exactly what i was looking for (big thanks on oil cooler info, been looking for that)!
I did see that article. It was well written. hmm... well i guess everything will come down to the price. As of now, i see quite a few 335's for sale under 30k, but almost all of them are Auto, and no sport package(at least it doesn't say it has one). I want a manual. I would actually like the 135 as well. Both cars have some issues. For example, C6 in 05 had a weak differential that would brake (most of c6 on sale under 30k are 05's). The 100k mile warranty was offered only on 07+, in my price range 07+ have around 60k miles (which is quite a bit for a performance car). 08 came with better interior, shifter and steering. If i were to get the one without navi, i can buy a used stock navi and install it later. Bimmers, on the other hand, oil pump issues, so i have to get the year right, need to make sure it's with a sport package (want that suspension, seats and no speed limmiter). Dreaded HPFP issues. Also if it didn't come with navi, i'd have to get after market one (which usually don't fit very well), or that stupid window one(i'm tired, i want a stock navi system).

CPO? what's that? what's that about the warranty? i thought all bmw had only 4/48 and that's it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:12 AM
1CEBITN 1CEBITN is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Kansas
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 212
Mein Auto: 335i Sedan
CPO=Certified Pre-Owned. And the sport package with 18's still has a speed limiter (155mph). You need a tune to get rid of that. I would be surprised if you can find an 07 or 08 vette for $25k in a year that doesn't have 50k on it.

In my experience the Vette is much faster stock vs stock (half second or more to 60 depending on driver) and much more fun to drive hard even in the twisties. I like to hang the tail out and am a muscle car guy at heart though. I miss hearing the loud rumble of a big V8 from the exhaust. You won't get that from a BMW. However I needed a 4 door and the 335 is easily modded to get you relatively close to a stock vette. You won't find another 4 door except the M3 maybe that is as fun to drive as the 335 but if a 2-seater is ok go for the vette assuming prices are similar. Keep in mind, head/cam packages are not very expensive on the vette and they can put you over 500 rwhp. Heck, just exhaust and CAI can get you around 400 at the wheels. Drive both and buy what you like.

I haven't been all that impressed with BMW honestly and probably won't buy another one. Too many issues for a car this expensive. I came out of an 03 Cobra (470ish rwhp - low 12s/high 11's) and my Cobra had less issues modified than my 335 does stock and the 335 cost almost double. Anyway, you don't need to make a decision for another year or so and things may be drastically different by then. It is fun to daydream though. Good luck and stay safe!
__________________
2007 Titanium Silver 335i Sedan w/Sport, Premium, Comfort Access, Steptronic...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:14 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: S.F. Bay Area
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,778
Mein Auto: 2010 335d
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotik View Post
thank you very much for your answer. It was very detailed and exactly what i was looking for (big thanks on oil cooler info, been looking for that)!
I did see that article. It was well written. hmm... well i guess everything will come down to the price. As of now, i see quite a few 335's for sale under 30k, but almost all of them are Auto, and no sport package(at least it doesn't say it has one). I want a manual. I would actually like the 135 as well. Both cars have some issues. For example, C6 in 05 had a weak differential that would brake (most of c6 on sale under 30k are 05's). The 100k mile warranty was offered only on 07+, in my price range 07+ have around 60k miles (which is quite a bit for a performance car). 08 came with better interior, shifter and steering. If i were to get the one without navi, i can buy a used stock navi and install it later. Bimmers, on the other hand, oil pump issues, so i have to get the year right, need to make sure it's with a sport package (want that suspension, seats and no speed limmiter). Dreaded HPFP issues. Also if it didn't come with navi, i'd have to get after market one (which usually don't fit very well), or that stupid window one(i'm tired, i want a stock navi system).
I would echo carve's comment on drivability - the 335i is way more drivable on the street than the C6. As far as the HPFP, you are rolling the dice on it failing. There is a consolation of sorts in that the '07s have a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty from BMWNA on HPFP failures.

On the navigation system, Garmin has a superior navigation product in the Nuvi 765. There are ways to mount the Nuvi where you use the center cupholder that pops out from the dash; not getting a Navigation-equipped car will drop the price a bit....

EDIT: What oil pump issue on the E9Xs? Especially if you get one with the oil cooler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotik View Post
CPO? what's that? what's that about the warranty? i thought all bmw had only 4/48 and that's it.
CPO = Certified Pre-Owned. It is BMW's extended warranty for 6 years/100,000 miles from the original retail delivery date. The dealer has to put the car through an extensive inspection program for the car. If the car passes inspection, it can be enrolled in the CPO program for a fee that is paid by the dealer before the car is offered for sale.

Last edited by anE934fun; 04-23-2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason: See EDIT above.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:59 AM
kotik kotik is offline
Registered User
Location: new jersey
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: mercury
i hope that 135's prices will drop a bit more. If i could get into that for 25k, i'd be a happy camper. I would go for 135 over both. vette surely has more potential (even though 335 is TT). The tt max out at about 400hp, then you need to change them and whole bunch of other things. i'm surprised you all don't think that the vette will get cheaper, does that mean they hold their value better? i mean, i've herd of people getting brand new 08's for 39-40k (well under MSRP).

Ohh, ok, CPO. Sounds good, but we all know that dealers charge an arm and a leg. And all that rumble about warranty included, well not really, and all that about thorough inspection is also bs. I wonder if i can just buy extended warranty on a bmw, how much it'd be? probably cheaper to find a private sale and just purchase the extended warranty, than dealers with CPO.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:11 PM
carve's Avatar
carve carve is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: I live in a house
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 720
Mein Auto: 07 335i E90
I've always been a stick-guy, but after driving the 335i automatic I decided to get one of those. They accelerate just as hard, generate the same rear-wheel horsepower, only weigh 12 pounds more and get the same gas mileage. You can drive in the twisties with both hands on the wheel, shifting with the paddles, although the sport mode is so smart that is seldom necessary unless you're driving at 10/10ths. You'll never miss a downshift and overrev your engine, and the ultra-quick downshifts are perfectly rev-matched every time! Resale will be much easier. You'll never burn out your clutch, although you're more likely to wear the tranny out so that's a wash. This is arguably the best torque-convertor automatic transmission ever built. The only downsides to the auto in this car are if you like rowing through the gears and the added purchase expense.

Haven't heard of oil pump problems. HPFP is a real issue, but with such a good warranty I'm not too concerned.

I only drove manual vettes, but I hear their auto (the 6-speed auto in the newer ones) is pretty damn good too. I would definitely try to get 07 or newer in the Vette for the powertrain warranty and lack of "first year gremlins" like "dead battery syndrome" the 05 and 06 models have.

BTW- I paid $29k SHIPPED for a CPO 07 335i sedan with automatic, sport, cold weather, premium, comfort access, and shades with 27k miles last January. It probably cost mid to high 40s new, with a LESSER warranty. Shop around and don't limit yourself to your local area.

Last edited by carve; 04-23-2009 at 12:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:32 PM
RichmannMotorSport.com RichmannMotorSport.com is offline
SUPPORTING VENDOR
Location: So.Cal./Simi Valley, CA.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 375
Mein Auto: 07' E90 and 95' E36 M3x2
I would do the 335 for sure over the vette and the 1 series. It would make for a better daily driver than the vette and have way better space and looks than the 1 series.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:35 PM
1CEBITN 1CEBITN is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Kansas
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 212
Mein Auto: 335i Sedan
You can buy extended warranty but if you plan to mod the car I wouldn't bother, waste of money better spent on mods.
__________________
2007 Titanium Silver 335i Sedan w/Sport, Premium, Comfort Access, Steptronic...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:42 PM
AF AF is offline
Here since day one
Location: Long Island, NY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,073
Mein Auto: 535ix, GL450, 991S, NSX
I have both and switch off on a regular basis, I find the BMW is more practical being it is a 4 door but one thing I cannot stand about my 335i is the combo of the runflat tires and the suspension on bumps ... I do not understand why my bmw has to feel like I am driving with rocks as wheels.

I know everyone is going to say the Vette has runflats too but GM did a much better job putting this combo together ... the ride is smoother on the bumps also I find the overall comfort of the Corvette is higher, the seat is very comfy and the Vette controls are all within a hand reach. In other words you don't need to budge from the seat to touch any switch or dial ... it is only something I could show better in person rather then describing it in writing. The car just makes you feel like you are a part of it.

The 2 cars have totally different feels, the Corvette is a sports car, it has no body sway, much better handling/ grip, massive torque and power that is ALWAYS there. The grumble from the engine sounds incredible and is just a beautiful car to look at.

The BMW is very fast (not as fast as the Vette), has a harder ride, has a tighter german feel to all of the controls, steering and transmission and feels like a great handling and performing sports sedan. It looks nice for a 4 door though I never find myself turning to look back at it after parking.

If I had one car it would be the 335i for the practicality (I have 3 kids and eat lunch everyday with 2 or 3 other people) though here is something to think about.

My 335 lease is up in a few weeks and I am not getting another 335i though I will get something similiar like a C350 or IS350.

The Vette is owned though if I were going to replace it, it would most likely be with another Corvette.

Best of luck deciding, you really can't go wrong as they are both great cars.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-23-2009, 01:10 PM
kotik kotik is offline
Registered User
Location: new jersey
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: mercury
carve: can you please tell which resources have you used? I usually go for cars.com and put unlimitted miles. Although I don't want a CA rated car, since it'll run on 91 and have different cats. P.S. Can anyone tell me exatcly what's different about CA rated cars and the rest? also, can you make a CA car suited for east coast(like a chip)?

I am torn between the two everyone that has a vette, say that they would never go back to anything else, and always love their vettes. Bmw, it's different. My brother had bmw m6 covertable, had a broken pass seat, squicks, undershield flew off (and landed on me, when we were doing 140). So yea bmw is great, but for some reason many people complain.

What do you think about this: I'll probably live in NYC(bk), and here bmw are abundant and vettes are somewhat rare. I would think that having a vette would be a bit more... well, just a bit more individualized vs a bmw. but then again, if i'm 24 and driving a vette, people would probably think that my parents bought it for me, vs bmw you'd always be respected in a weird way.

In the end, which one do you think would pick up more chicks, lol ? hey hey, every guy on here does appreciate when some cute girl gives him(his car) a smile.

Last edited by kotik; 04-23-2009 at 01:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:09 PM
el indiano's Avatar
el indiano el indiano is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 202
Mein Auto: 2006 Z4 3.0 si
bmw.

if you have more than a 2 min commute to work, you will be sick of the vette in about a week. it rattles, nothing on the dash lines up, and it kinda says, "hey look at me, im a doosh!"

get the bimmer. you will love the 335i.
__________________
2006 Z4 3.0si

Silver/Black
Premium/Sport/Auto/Xenon/Bluetooth/Heated Seats
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Silkysmooth Silkysmooth is offline
Registered User
Location: Boston
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 23
Mein Auto: E46 M3, E39 540iA, B6 A4
get the 335i.
but you are in NJ, car stealing capital. so pick a conservative color
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:24 PM
prep328 prep328 is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles,CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 38
Mein Auto: 328i, SA
i thought corvette was being spun off, to TATA? Rumor?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:25 PM
carve's Avatar
carve carve is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: I live in a house
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 720
Mein Auto: 07 335i E90
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotik View Post
carve: can you please tell which resources have you used? I usually go for cars.com and put unlimitted miles. Although I don't want a CA rated car, since it'll run on 91 and have different cats. P.S. Can anyone tell me exatcly what's different about CA rated cars and the rest? also, can you make a CA car suited for east coast(like a chip)?
I set up a search for CPO under 30k ($ and mi) on autotrader and cars.com. A lot of times they didn't call out "sport package", but you can usually tell by looking at the wheels in the thumbnail, or by the steering wheel. You'll often see some dealers dramatically lower the price if a car has been on a lot for a while, so I'd have a few individual dealers known to do this, or the ones within a days drive, bookmarked too. All these would be in one bookmark folder in firefox. When I got home and, if possible, in the morning or at lunch, I'd "open all in tabs" and spend a few minutes looking through. I missed a few equally good deals, so if you want a deal like this you have to have your loan pre-approved and have the fast trigger finger to say "yes" right away. Pre-determine your go/no-go critera so you don't waste time thinking it over- otherwise someone else will get it.

I think Hassle BMW in NY DRAMATICALLY lowers the price of cars that have been on the lot over three months. If you want CPO, it'll be a 2nd owner car from a dealer 19/20 times. If you don't, Kero's auto brokers in Seattle seems to have good deals.

Except for some diesels, I think nearly all cars are 50-state now. The CA cars haven't been different for at least a decade on most makes and models.

Don't start a relationship with a girl interested in your car. I'd imagine most would prefer the bimmer though....many think Vette=midlife crisis.

Last edited by carve; 04-23-2009 at 02:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-23-2009, 02:29 PM
prep328 prep328 is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles,CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 38
Mein Auto: 328i, SA
i would go with the 335i
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:32 PM
AF AF is offline
Here since day one
Location: Long Island, NY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,073
Mein Auto: 535ix, GL450, 991S, NSX
Quote:
Originally Posted by el indiano View Post
bmw.

if you have more than a 2 min commute to work, you will be sick of the vette in about a week. it rattles, nothing on the dash lines up, and it kinda says, "hey look at me, im a doosh!"

get the bimmer. you will love the 335i.

If buying a car based on what others have to say then you need to get it right, if you drive a vette they say you have a small d**k and if you have a BMW they say your a prick.

Being I have both I must have the worst of both worlds


On a serious note though my Vette is going to be 3 years old and has been to the dealer once for a TSB, my 335i has been to the dealer 3 times in 2 yrs.

Both cars make strange noises/rattles though the Vette has less of them and seems quieter on the inside ... Also it is an extremely livable car and you do not get sick of it after a small or long drive ... you just want to get back in and drive it more ...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-23-2009, 04:09 PM
fasttimes fasttimes is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Arlington, VA
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 312
Mein Auto: 99 Maxima GLE
CPO isn't all that its cracked out to be. Usually just a Certified Pounding (of an) Orafice.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-23-2009, 05:02 PM
carve's Avatar
carve carve is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: I live in a house
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 720
Mein Auto: 07 335i E90
Harrr...I get it...cause the acronym is the same! Clever!

What is it "cracked out" to be?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-23-2009, 05:30 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: S.F. Bay Area
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,778
Mein Auto: 2010 335d
Quote:
Originally Posted by prep328 View Post
i thought corvette was being spun off, to TATA? Rumor?
Only if Chevrolet is sold to Tata. Given that Chevy is a core GM brand, even if GM goes Chapter 11, I don't see Tata getting Chevy....
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-24-2009, 06:45 AM
kotik kotik is offline
Registered User
Location: new jersey
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: mercury
thanks for all reply's. I think at this point, it'll come down to the price of the vette. "can i get a vette for the price i want", if not then i'll get a bimmer. Like AF said, and many others, you don't want to get out of vette, you want to drive it (i had that feeling before, and it's great). For some reason I don't hear that from bmw owners.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-24-2009, 06:52 AM
Shark01 Shark01 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Houston, Tx
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 167
Mein Auto: Porsche Turbo, E93 335i
I have had different generations of Corvettes over the past 20 years. If you are under 30 and/or unmarried with no kids, I'd go Corvette every time. Its the kind of car you have to own at least once (like a Porsche or Ferrari).
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:23 AM
Mk23's Avatar
Mk23 Mk23 is offline
Corner Carving Addict
Location: Central Florida
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,274
Mein Auto: 09 - 335i E92
From Car & Driver's Lightning Lap 2:

"The 335i does everything remarkably well, which is why many of us at Car and Driver think itís the best all-around car in the world."

/thread
__________________
09 - 335i E92 / Monaco Blue / Saddle Brown / Dark Burl / Step / Comfort Access / Rear Sunshade / Heated Seats / PDC / iDrive / Sat. Radio / iPod & USB / Prem Pkg / Sport Pkg / OEM Alarm / Ventus V12 (Non-RFT) / V1 and other goodies...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-24-2009, 07:46 AM
SLVR330 SLVR330 is offline
Registered User
Location: MD area
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22
Mein Auto: 06 330i
I have both the C6 and E90, the C6 is a 1SB base model with no nav, bose, dual roofs, HUD, and upgrade leather. However, the CPO 330i has Premium, Sport, Cold, Navi, and 18's. The comparions are not really a good comparison. The 335i is in a different league, maybe a comparison would be the coupe M3 and the vette they are closer in power. I had the vette for 3 years and only at 2 oil changes and a gas cap problem. The 330i it's been back 3 times to the dealer cause of a battery drain problem, bubble in side wall on one the RFTs, and headlight brackets it seems that the HID's are dacing at night when hitting a bridge overpass. This is in a last couple of months. The vette goes in for an oil change once a year with no other issues.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms