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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E36 (1991 - 1999)

E36 (1991 - 1999)
The E36 chassis 3-Series BMW was a huge hit among driving enthusiasts from the first moment the car hit the pavement. The E36 won numerous awards over the years it was produced and is still a favorite of many BMW enthusiasts to this day! -- View the E36 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 07-05-2015, 01:56 PM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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Big Brake Kit

Hey I am saving up for the a bbk from wilwood and I was wondering if it would be okay if I did the rears before the front or would it make the brakes feel off? Its for a 1995 M3.
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2015, 03:00 PM
E36MikeSheafe E36MikeSheafe is offline
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I would think not so much. Most of the braking is done by the front brakes, 80-20 I believe. Doing the rear first would be the way I would do it in stages.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2015, 03:06 PM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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Awesome. Thanks man
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2015, 10:41 PM
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The above advice is wrong. By doing the rears first, you would adversely change brake bias by a massive amount, which is bad.

I would not recommend changing your brakes in any regard unless you are doing everything at the same time.

Also, do you take your car to the track regularly? Are you on R-comp tires? If not, a big brake kit will not benefit you in any way. It won't make the car stop more quickly, nor will it help with brake feel. The only thing they do is help manage heat under racing conditions. Even so, the stock E36 non-M brakes can handle track duty with proper pads and fluid just fine. I have PFC Z-Rated pads and ATE Type 200 fluid in my car, and I don't have any problems with braking during track days in 95F ambient temps.

So unless you have a dedicated race car, and I'm assuming you don't based on your original question, save your money and spend it on something more beneficial. A BBK in a street driven car with street tires would be flushing money straight down the toilet.
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Last edited by ZeGerman; 07-05-2015 at 10:45 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2015, 12:26 AM
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bronx1987 bronx1987 is offline
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yep, listen to Zegerman, doing rears first is a bad idea and will upset your brake bias too much.
Also for daily driving and not dedicated track car, waste of money, fluids and pads are more than you will ever need, unless you have the money to burn and want it to look cool.

I run wilwood fronts and stock rears.
I have changed brake fluid to a a 400deg fluid.
Fronts run SBS pads up front and have yet to make a decision on what rears I will run.
Also the front pistons in the wilwoods are around 1,75" and 1,6" from memory, which is massive especially running the stock non M3 master..... however the pedal feel for me is perfect and close to stock which comes I need for the track.
But I do run hankook z222 tyres which have massive grip and also run pretty wide tyres.

Just FYI, my kit set me back a total of $1100AUD for calipers, braided hoses, pads, DBA M3 size discs and fluid, also everything is track spec, not for street.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2015, 06:57 AM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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Its on a 460whp supercharged S52 so I figured some extra brake power would help, the current M brakes are crap but that's with Brembo Blanks, stoptech pads and stop tech brake lines. Any better suggestions?
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeGerman View Post
The above advice is wrong. By doing the rears first, you would adversely change brake bias by a massive amount, which is bad.

I would not recommend changing your brakes in any regard unless you are doing everything at the same time.

Also, do you take your car to the track regularly? Are you on R-comp tires? If not, a big brake kit will not benefit you in any way. It won't make the car stop more quickly, nor will it help with brake feel. The only thing they do is help manage heat under racing conditions. Even so, the stock E36 non-M brakes can handle track duty with proper pads and fluid just fine. I have PFC Z-Rated pads and ATE Type 200 fluid in my car, and I don't have any problems with braking during track days in 95F ambient temps.

So unless you have a dedicated race car, and I'm assuming you don't based on your original question, save your money and spend it on something more beneficial. A BBK in a street driven car with street tires would be flushing money straight down the toilet.
^This^

How often are you engaging the ABS system on your car? If the answer is rarely or never, you aren't even using the full braking power of your existing brake system. The only thing you'll get out of a BBK is it looks cool. Regardless of what brake system you have, the tire contact with the road is the ultimate determiner of braking power. If you did a before and after ABS fully engaged stopping distance test with your stock brake system and after with a BBK system the stopping distance would be the same because the brakes can't apply any more force than it takes to lock up the wheels, and without a significant wheel and tire improvement there's no difference for either system. If you want to stop better, invest in some really grippy wider size tires (Hankook R-S3s or Bridgestone RE71s for example) and some lightweight wheels.
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2015, 07:34 AM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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Looks like I'm going to be saving some money then thanks everyone for the input

Last edited by Addamcontreras; 07-06-2015 at 07:39 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:07 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
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i wounder why you would go to the big brake kit over s pins and aggressive pads and drilled rotors?

the 2nd set of big brake replacement will pay for 5 or 6 sets of upgrades....

How fast can you really drive? even if your a fking nut on the road (like me)


brakes have been the back bone of every build Ive every done, and never have i had to step in to the "professional" racing brakes.....
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:29 PM
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The only thing we never take into consideration, as to why turbo or high performance versions of cars come with bigger brakes compared to their smaller NA counterparts is due to emergency stopping power.

I read a bmw article some years ago when the e90 first came out, and said the brakes on the 335i are capable of stopping 1200hp.
So in an emergengcy with wide open throttle, your car can still be stopped.

So that would be the only thing to take into consideration.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:30 PM
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I'm just curious what else was done to get an S52 up to 460 WHP with a supercharger..
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:30 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
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by all means... if that is the case then i step aside....
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:38 PM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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13PSI forged pistons rods, stock crank MLS head gasket from cometic arp head studs main studs connecting rod studs, sunnbelt cams, full AA exhaust and AA supercharger stage 2 kit. And I'm sure a jettas brakes could stop a 1200hp car but it would take a heck of a long time compared to the 335i, what's the difference? Pads and rotors are obviously better but isn't more surface area going be a be a massive factor?
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:48 PM
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Generally, additional surface area will only help dissipate heat resulting from repeated hard braking (i.e., track duty). Since brake temps on the street don't get anywhere near hot enough to take advantage of the heat dissipating properties of a BBK, they are hugely overkill for any street car. A common misconception regarding BBKs is that they shorten your stopping distance over stock brakes. Most of the time this is not true. What they do instead is allow your braking distances to stay the same during extremely heavy usage on a track where standard brakes generate too much heat and begin to fade. But for the odd panic stop here & there on the street, a BBK won't benefit you at all since there simply isn't enough heat present after a few panic stops to overheat stock brakes.

Also, if you are able to engage the ABS at all on dry pavement, the weak link is your tires, not the brakes.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:49 PM
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Sure thing, maybe a jetta can stop 1200hp, but 335i has bigger master, discs, 2 piston calipers compared to single etc etc.
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  #16  
Old 07-06-2015, 06:00 PM
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bronx1987 bronx1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeGerman View Post
Generally, additional surface area will only help dissipate heat resulting from repeated hard braking (i.e., track duty). Since brake temps on the street don't get anywhere near hot enough to take advantage of the heat dissipating properties of a BBK, they are hugely overkill for any street car. A common misconception regarding BBKs is that they shorten your stopping distance over stock brakes. Most of the time this is not true. What they do instead is allow your braking distances to stay the same during extremely heavy usage on a track where standard brakes generate too much heat and begin to fade. But for the odd panic stop here & there on the street, a BBK won't benefit you at all since there simply isn't enough heat present after a few panic stops to overheat stock brakes.

Also, if you are able to engage the ABS at all on dry pavement, the weak link is your tires, not the brakes.
Larger discs not only dissipate heat better, but it is also easier to stop with less force.
Hence why race cars have same surface area on their 380mm discs as a bmw road car would have on 300mm discs.
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  #17  
Old 07-06-2015, 06:08 PM
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Good point. It's important to recognize the difference between rotor diameter and rotor surface area.
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  #18  
Old 07-06-2015, 07:45 PM
Addamcontreras Addamcontreras is online now
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This makes sense then. I do lock up the brakes every once in a while but my ABS light is on so that has something to do with it. So for my situation I do like going in the mountains on a weekly basis (not as gnarly as a track I know) but I do get fade and the brakes do tend to lock up. So suggestions are; better rotors, pads, and tires. I currently have Michelin pilot super sports 235 front and 255 rear. They grip pretty well but what would be better tire suggestions? I daily this car so race slicks isn't an ideal option
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  #19  
Old 07-06-2015, 10:11 PM
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bronx1987 bronx1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Addamcontreras View Post
This makes sense then. I do lock up the brakes every once in a while but my ABS light is on so that has something to do with it. So for my situation I do like going in the mountains on a weekly basis (not as gnarly as a track I know) but I do get fade and the brakes do tend to lock up. So suggestions are; better rotors, pads, and tires. I currently have Michelin pilot super sports 235 front and 255 rear. They grip pretty well but what would be better tire suggestions? I daily this car so race slicks isn't an ideal option
Michelin PSS are some of the best road going/track tyres available.
once you start going softer compound and hardersidewalls, you will be in different territory, this includes the Cons: harsher ride, incredibly noisy, very bad grip on cold and finally much quicker wear.

However you do get the Pros too: Better stopping power when hot, incredible grip and traction when warm too.

But if you DD your BMW with 460hp, it might be a bit much for your car if you are not going to get them to temperature.

Look at some reviews, but I say you seem pretty set with your tyres unless you want a 2nd set of wheels and tyres to swap out for your "spirited" driving
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Old 07-06-2015, 11:41 PM
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Funny this thread should come up now. I was offered a BBK for the E36 on Monday, a lightly used (less than 1000 miles) Wilwood set (F & R) with rotors, braided hoses and hardware, for $650. Reason they are selling? They were going back to stock before selling the car.

I don't have $650 to spare. I don't have $6.50 to spare right now, so I told them thanks, but no thanks. They sold the whole thing to the next person on their list.
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  #21  
Old 07-07-2015, 01:08 AM
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Also one thing to watch out for, especially with wilwood.
Dynalite are terrible, all the cnc machined stuff is crap, only stick to the forged stuff.
There is a reason some wilwood kits are so cheap, the forged stuff will jack the price up quite a bit over the cnc crap
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  #22  
Old 07-07-2015, 06:12 AM
M-technik-3 M-technik-3 is offline
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Originally Posted by bronx1987 View Post
Also one thing to watch out for, especially with wilwood.
Dynalite are terrible, all the cnc machined stuff is crap, only stick to the forged stuff.
There is a reason some wilwood kits are so cheap, the forged stuff will jack the price up quite a bit over the cnc crap
They were race kits that people put on their street cars. The dynalites are supposed to be rebuilt or at least cleaned after races. We use them on a team I help wrench on. It's a modified for circle track racing.

We run PFC pads and stock rotors on our lemons race car and it's very quick. We use the oem sized 318is rotors and have not need more brakes just better tires but it's lemons so we are limited to 190 UTOG wear rating.

Last edited by M-technik-3; 07-07-2015 at 06:15 AM.
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