Ford or BMW? Side by side comparison

Originally Posted by johnc_22

The HACK is kind of right. People buy cars for different reasons. I have a co-worker who has to support a family and chose a Fusion. It's given him a lot less trouble than my 335i and he probably paid < 50% what I paid. Sure, as I said above, it's not a BMW nor does it drive like one, but why compare cars that are completely in different leagues unless it makes you somehow feel better to diss cars that are blatantly lesser than yours and no one would argue that point. Why not pick on a Dodge Neon or a Hyundai Excel while you're at it?

it's not What Hack said, it's how he said it. i think you have a good point. my neighbor has a geo metro... the much coveted car among the thrifty when gas was $4.16 per gallon.

Originally Posted by westwest888

I find it extra hilarious that the Ford Fusion Hybrid is $8000 more than its larger engined sister at $28k, and that they think it's going to sell in any quantity comparable to the 3rd gen Toyota Prius and the 2nd gen Honda Insight which both start at $19,xxx.

The Ford Fusion is a bad rental car even among rental cars. Simple things like the window switches, turn signals, map light, radio and other bits are omitted or ergonomically or functionally incorrect. The car is basically a 10th generation Taurus, so I'm not sure what the excuse is.

There are waiting lists for the new Fusion Hybrid. It drives well and gets great gas mileage. I don't think Ford has any worries about the price. The market wants that car.

By the way it does not compete in the same market as the Prius or Insight which are smaller and drive terribly.

Thanks, Mike.

beauty and one of many ford beasts, including the mustang. c'mon people... have some class. ford gets it, in europe anyway. they're just appealing to our lack of taste in the states.

Originally Posted by BMW_GAL

The Hack reminds me of BJ, both are strongly opinionated

True. The difference is that The Hack has more than one opinion.

tsk tsk

As posted, I came out to my car after a long day of work, and here were these two new, dark blue cars, one right next to the other. The contrast in chrome was remarkable, so I posted the photos just for fun.

If the Hack read the posts, he would have seen that I think the Ford Mustang is a strikingly attractive car. If he read the thread, he'd see that others and I have given many compliments to other car companies.

Of course we're BMW fans here. Of course we tend to like the BMW styling more than a random sample of people would. But it's o.k. to say, the Fusion is a great car but the chrome is overdone, no?

I think the Fusion is one of the best cars Ford has made in a long long time. The Hybrid won a comparison test with C/D (for what it's worth) and the 2010 model got a long needed face lift. The old one had a bland interior but then, few American cars in that price class excel at interiors.

The Fusion is a pretty nice car for someone wanting an everyday family hauler and Ford has made strides in quality here in the past few years.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy one but then, if I have a choice and financial means, I will skip it for something else.

What's all the fuzz about?

The Fusion looks like 1990's styling, but as Fords go, one of their better efforts of late for something to sell to people that buy camry's!

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

There are waiting lists for the new Fusion Hybrid. It drives well and gets great gas mileage. I don't think Ford has any worries about the price. The market wants that car.

By the way it does not compete in the same market as the Prius or Insight which are smaller and drive terribly.

Thanks, Mike.

LOL. Go down to Hertz and try to drive a Fusion for a week without cursing. It is about as awesome as the 1988 Pontiac Bonneville I drove in high school - not awesome at all. It has unforgivable shortcomings and I bet the Chinese will do better when they start making their second gen cars.

Besides the obvious things like the underpowered engine (in the non-hybrid Fusion), *****zo transmission, $10 shocks with $3 springs, 100k mile hard all season tires, the window switches that short circuit when you press two at the same time, the non existent map light, the one candle power headlights, 61% of the weight on the front wheels, the huge front overhang, the huge rear overhang, the doors that just can't quite swing open smoothly, the fcked up dead pedal and poor pedal placement in general...

The company is bankrupt. It's because after 100 years they can't get simple things right.

I'm a guy who is pretty particular about the way a car handles. I've spent hundreds of hours at the track and tuning the suspension of my BMW. I wouldn't have bought the Honda if it didn't do a respectable job of cornering. With the right tires, a Porsche-Cayman-besting 2700 pounds of mass, and a center of gravity in the floor boards I can attest that it handles *extremely* well for an economy car, and better than most Japenese cars Lexus IS included.

I'm not a fan of American cars, therefore 328. But I guess that's biased.

Originally Posted by ProfessorCook

I actually like the way the new Mustangs look. I think there are plenty of decent American cars out there.

However, I think the Ford Fusion's styling is horrible.... but then... that guy probably thinks my car's styling is just too dull and boring, lol.

The dodge chargers are also pretty good.


And Ford really did do good with this:


BTW:
Ford Mustang Shelby from the made-for-tv series in 2007. Too bad it flopped (the show)

Originally Posted by westwest888

LOL. Go down to Hertz and try to drive a Fusion for a week without cursing. It is about as awesome as the 1988 Pontiac Bonneville I drove in high school - not awesome at all. It has unforgivable shortcomings and I bet the Chinese will do better when they start making their second gen cars.

Besides the obvious things like the underpowered engine (in the non-hybrid Fusion), *****zo transmission, $10 shocks with $3 springs, 100k mile hard all season tires, the window switches that short circuit when you press two at the same time, the non existent map light, the one candle power headlights, 61% of the weight on the front wheels, the huge front overhang, the huge rear overhang, the doors that just can't quite swing open smoothly, the fcked up dead pedal and poor pedal placement in general...

The company is bankrupt. It's because after 100 years they can't get simple things right.

I'm a guy who is pretty particular about the way a car handles. I've spent hundreds of hours at the track and tuning the suspension of my BMW. I wouldn't have bought the Honda if it didn't do a respectable job of cornering. With the right tires, a Porsche-Cayman-besting 2700 pounds of mass, and a center of gravity in the floor boards I can attest that it handles *extremely* well for an economy car, and better than most Japenese cars Lexus IS included.

Whatever. You're obviously a hater. First of all a rental Fusion and a decently equipped 2009 model are worlds apart. A rental has been thrashed and is poorly optioned. They bear little resemblance to what you and I would buy. Second the 2009 model has been extensively redone and has received high praise in every review. It's also not marketing as a sport sedan like a 3 series. It's a top quality family car that now competes head to head with the Accord.

Last, Ford is not bankrupt. They are by far the healthiest US car company and probably in better shape than many foreign owned car manufacturers.

Thanks, Mike.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Whatever. You're obviously a hater. First of all a rental Fusion and a decently equipped 2009 model are worlds apart. A rental has been thrashed and is poorly optioned. They bear little resemblance to what you and I would buy. Second the 2009 model has been extensively redone and has received high praise in every review. It's also not marketing as a sport sedan like a 3 series. It's a top quality family car that now competes head to head with the Accord.

Last, Ford is not bankrupt. They are by far the healthiest US car company and probably in better shape than many foreign owned car manufacturers.

Thanks, Mike.

+1

To some folks around here NOT A BMW is the same as garbage. This is the mindset that GM had years ago about Japanese cars . . . and here we are.

westwest888 makes some points and you guys deride his comments?

He did say he knows what he wants out of a car. If you are not the same way then you simply won't understand. For 95% of humans out there, cars are just that.

For the rest with high expectations, watching designers and manufacturers making stupid decisions when they could just as easily do the right thing, is unbearable.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Last, Ford is not bankrupt. They are by far the healthiest US car company and probably in better shape than many foreign owned car manufacturers.

I have to laugh when a New Yorker tells me California is bankrupt. Or when a Ford guy says GM and Chrysler are bankrupt. To a third party observer, they're all bankrupt with different expiration dates.

Ford loses money every time they sell a car. It's been this way for over a decade. The only time they post an "accounting profit" is when they write off some bad asset or move money from one pocket to another. Otherwise they lose $10 billion a year in a bull market, and $15+ billion a year in a bear market. If you couldn't make money during a credit bubble, you're not going to make any in whatever the next decade has in store for us.

Originally Posted by v12

westwest888 makes some points and you guys deride his comments?

He did say he knows what he wants out of a car. If you are not the same way then you simply won't understand. For 95% of humans out there, cars are just that.

For the rest with high expectations, watching designers and manufacturers making stupid decisions when they could just as easily do the right thing, is unbearable.

All the complaints he makes about the Fusion are based on an experience with the completely stripped rental mule (probably has cloth + automatic). My co-worker has the 4-cylinder Fusion with a stick and sure, it's not super fast but it has what you would expect from such an engine while rowing your own gears, and fuel economy to match. He also chose leather. I mean it seems for an $18K car, people have expectations that it should be more like a $35K car (or more) and that's just not realistic.

Everyone knows what they want and need out of a car. Just because a particular model does not fit your needs or wants does not make it crap. People don't buy Ford Fusions because they spend "hundreds of hours at the track" in it - they buy them because they can afford them and are nicer than some of the more basic transportation out there.

Opinions about specific cars aside, saying Ford is bankrupt demonstrates basic ignorance of the facts.

Originally Posted by westwest888

I have to laugh when a New Yorker tells me California is bankrupt. Or when a Ford guy says GM and Chrysler are bankrupt. To a third party observer, they're all bankrupt with different expiration dates.

Ford loses money every time they sell a car. It's been this way for over a decade. The only time they post an "accounting profit" is when they write off some bad asset or move money from one pocket to another. Otherwise they lose $10 billion a year in a bull market, and $15+ billion a year in a bear market. If you couldn't make money during a credit bubble, you're not going to make any in whatever the next decade has in store for us.

While I do not claim to have the insider info you seemingly claim to have, I would venture to say not even Microsoft could operate on $10 billion a year losses for 10+ years. So I'd venture to say you overinflated that stat to make a point or are just flat out lying.

Originally Posted by cwinter

While I do not claim to have the insider info you seemingly claim to have, I would venture to say not even Microsoft could operate on $10 billion a year losses for 10+ years. So I'd venture to say you overinflated that stat to make a point or are just flat out lying.

Bill Gates just called and wants you to stop making up rumors:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/23/mic...-earnings.html

In 2009 Q1 MS made a 2.98 billion profit...which is a 32% decrease from last year this time. Apparantly it's the first time, since 1986, the company has made less money then previous times.

Originally Posted by westwest888

LOL. Go down to Hertz and try to drive a Fusion for a week without cursing. It is about as awesome as the 1988 Pontiac Bonneville I drove in high school - not awesome at all. It has unforgivable shortcomings and I bet the Chinese will do better when they start making their second gen cars.

I hear the Fusion Hybrid got amazing reviews and is giving the Prius/Insight a run for their money.

Originally Posted by furby076

Bill Gates just called and wants you to stop making up rumors:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/23/mic...-earnings.html

In 2009 Q1 MS made a 2.98 billion profit...which is a 32% decrease from last year this time. Apparantly it's the first time, since 1986, the company has made less money then previous times.

What? I never said MS lost money like that, I just used them as an example saying that even a big company like MS couldn't last 10 years while lose $10 billion a year, and hence I doubt Ford loses that much every year for 10 years straight.

Originally Posted by cwinter

What? I never said MS lost money like that, I just used them as an example saying that even a big company like MS couldn't last 10 years while lose $10 billion a year, and hence I doubt Ford loses that much every year for 10 years straight.

I was just busting your stones

Originally Posted by ProfessorCook

tsk tsk

As posted, I came out to my car after a long day of work, and here were these two new, dark blue cars, one right next to the other. The contrast in chrome was remarkable, so I posted the photos just for fun.

If the Hack read the posts, he would have seen that I think the Ford Mustang is a strikingly attractive car. If he read the thread, he'd see that others and I have given many compliments to other car companies.

Of course we're BMW fans here. Of course we tend to like the BMW styling more than a random sample of people would. But it's o.k. to say, the Fusion is a great car but the chrome is overdone, no?

Unfortunately I actually did read all the posts up to the point of MY post, and my opinion does not change. What appears to me is fanboism borderline that of E46Fanatics and Bimmerpost and BMW elitism. What is "overdone" chrome to you, maybe just right to most other buyers. Believe you me, I read the subtle undertones of these posts and subconsciously some of you are revelling at the fact that you own more expensive cars than the said Fusion, including YOU.

I guess buying a BMW has that effect on some people, especially when some saved all their lives to own a BMW. I mean, if I were to park my blue F430 Scoodiarhea next to your 3 series, I would probably chuckle to myself about the amount of orange peel on the car and the gawdy plastic instead of hand stitched leather dash too, wouldn't you think?

But I don't. Let's face it. There's "overdone" chrome on the Fusion because, for that level of spending chrome attracts buyers, just like for a $40,000 entry level BMW you'd expect LEATHER not vinyl (oh wait, LEATHER is not standard? WTF?). There's ALWAYS cars better than yours (or mine) on the market and someone in a more financially secured situation than you driving that car. I don't look in the parking lot everyday and go, damn, my car is faster and more expensive than any of the cars on the lot (it is some days, except when my co-worker brings his Serial Number 00X Series 5 Hurst Challenger to work. That thing will do 0-60 in 4 seconds flat AND probably fetch about $200,000 right now due to the low serial number). Sales rep pulls up in his nicely done '06 Subaru WRX sedan I don't go "man what a gawdy collection of cheap econobox design" and I recognize that in wet or dry, properly driven his WRX sedan will probably pull away from ANY of my expensive collection of cars from a tight corner.

If you need to judge other cars parked next to you to make you self fell better or "have fun" as you put it, you probably should rethink some of your priorities. No offense, but there's a reason why the joke about porcupines and the pricks on the outside always involves BMWs (or Porsches, for that matter. Again, apologies in advance Emission, nothing against Porsche drivers except they're SLOW).

Originally Posted by ChampagneKitty

if i were a man you would be wearing your @ss for a hat.

Still butt-hurt for me outing you? I would have thought that by now you would have taken my advice and come clean.

If "cyber-threats" intimidated anyone, I'd be a billionaire by now. Puhlease, I've been wearing my @ss for a hat for ages on these forums. Does that mean I'm right, you REALLY are a man?

And do you have your mom's permission to use her photo for your avatar? Not sure, but if I were your mom and you're plastering her photo everywhere on the intarweb...Not sure if I'd appreciate it. You might get grounded from using the computer for a week or two.

Well o.k., Hack. I'm guessing we're both misjudging each other some. I think you have some good points about the Fusion and I'm definitely a BMW fan... no doubt about that.

Came out to the parking lot today and paused to admire a red Z4 parked there with the top down. (I've always had a soft spot for the Z series and think it's a better looking car than any other BMW, mine included.) But I think you've got part of me pegged, no matter what I'd like to think of myself, because I took a look at his wheels which don't look like they've been cleaned since he bought the car and thought "gotta put some work into the detailing though..."

Like I said earlier, I betcha the Fusion owner looks at my car and thinks "Man! That boy should've spent the extra few bucks to upgrade the exterior to include some chrome!"

Originally Posted by cwinter

While I do not claim to have the insider info you seemingly claim to have, I would venture to say not even Microsoft could operate on $10 billion a year losses for 10+ years. So I'd venture to say you overinflated that stat to make a point or are just flat out lying.

I have lots of insider info. It's called reading the newspaper and the google.

People have no idea why they lost 46% of their money last year. They have no idea what they bought (equity shares) and they have no idea what they bought it in (a company with decades of NEGATIVE earnings that stays afloat by issuing more debt against collateral secured earlier in the century).

Here's a good insider table from Hoovers.com. It's so insider that it's required by Federal law to be disclosed to the public. The numbers are in millions. As in, "Ford posted a $14,467,000,000 or $14.4 billion loss last year."

There has not been an official recognition of bankruptcy at Ford. But for the owners of the company, they would have been better off if they Chapter 7 liquidated it at the height of the credit and real estate bubble in 2005. If Chrysler and GM come out their bankruptcies even slightly less unprofitable, Ford's hand will be forced and they will have to go through the same Obamanation in order to free themselves from supplier contracts, labor contracts, etc. It will happen inside of 12 months.

For our advanced readers you can look at the statement of cash flows and deduce that Ford actually does lose $2000 every time a car leaves the showroom. The years where Ford posts "profits" they are accounting profits, not cash profits. That means some future cash stream is discounted to the present and booked even though it may never materialize.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Puhlease, I've been wearing my @ss for a hat for ages on these forums.

ok.