This board is going to H

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

Yeah, I'm starting to see a trend of going from relationship based selling/purchasing to transactional based selling/purchasing. Sad, but true.

I've pulled back significantly. I know others have, too. I'm not playing the tit for tat game and then being accused of having an attitude. I'd give my opinion and then get flamed? Uh, no. I have better things to do. It's not worth my time or calories. I will be on the look out for more substantative threads where fest members have legitimate questions and there's quality dialogue. To those of you who troll with nasty things to say about dealers or how much you bled a dealer- you're officially on my ignore list. Please put me on yours.

For a while, it was vehicle histories, then dealer locates... then this brain damage about MMR's and lease buy outs. Enough. And then I've even had some Fester's pit one sponsor against another in a pissing match (forgive my candor) for a deal. Whatever.

I'd rather hang out in the ED forum.

Alpine300ZHP hit it on the nail, btw.

Oh, and one more thing. I've been here since Feb 2003. Yeah, back when TedW at Carbone BMW had in his avatar, "Here to Help," so I know what it's like to go way back and know how great this forum has been and how sad that a few bad apples, err, mooches, can ruin a good thing.

So mclaren, I'm right there with ya, brother.

Adrian and the other dealers: I have enjoyed all of your helpful posts. It is a shame that all of this is becoming "I need to get a car for $500 over invoice".

As a buyer, I don't begrudge the need for the dealer to make a living. All I want is to be treated honestly and with respect, and not get gouged in the process. It is unfortunate that many don't realize this.

Adrian, you have been very helpful as reading through your posts on the Fest. I posted the thread about lease buy outs. So what's the problem if it helps a dealer move another car...., especially when BMW gets their money up front now, vs. down the road in a couple years? I know I'd take a full buy out now at full value, then a stream of payments over time.

Woz and the other dealers have done a great job....so I don't understand why you feel a lease pay off question turns it into amatuer hour, especially when a customer writes a check to dump a lease, and to buy or lease another new car.

Best wishes,
Schnell.

I'm still a little confused here. I have not been on here for years and years, but I have been here for a year or so, so I don't know if I'm a newbie or not. It seems that most people posting here believe that just because they have posted 3K or so posts means they are old timers and that entitles them to say the "newbies" are all to blame for a lame site. Just because I don't make a bunch of posts that say, "nice car" or "kewl beans" or my all time favorite, "+1" doesn't mean that I am a newbie. I read nearly every post and if I don't agree then I just pass on it, if I have something to say then I'll say it. I suggest you get off this newbie thing and maybe point out the people that are just plain dumb asses. If you want to talk about something of importance then start a thread. My guess is most every subject has been covered at one time or another and if everybody just did a search then there would be no reason to start a new thread. No new threads means no forum. Which do you prefer?

When dealers were tacking $5000+ over MSRP on the e39m5, (and the E60 for the first 3 months!) they were unapologetic saying "It is what the market will support"

Why, now that the market is in the toilet, do these same dealers IGNORE this argument of "it is what the market will support", but rather whine about food on the table and 'we need to make a living'???

The hypocrisy is stunning.

And these helpful dealers are silent about many issues that they chose not to disclose- BMW to Dealer incentives, known issues with defects, tsbs, etc (like when we see multiple reports of specific failures, yet the dealers will say "Wow, we've never heard of that"...then we see a TSB for that same issue.)

Originally Posted by ard

When dealers were tacking $5000+ over MSRP on the e39m5, (and the E60 for the first 3 months!) they were unapologetic saying "It is what the market will support"

Why, now that the market is in the toilet, do these same dealers IGNORE this argument of "it is what the market will support", but rather whine about food on the table and 'we need to make a living'???

The hypocrisy is stunning.

And these helpful dealers are silent about many issues that they chose not to disclose- BMW to Dealer incentives, known issues with defects, tsbs, etc (like when we see multiple reports of specific failures, yet the dealers will say "Wow, we've never heard of that"...then we see a TSB for that same issue.)

This is why this board goes to hell. Posts like these.


FWIW, my SA has always disclosed known issues. I usually ask about something to the effect of "is this something you guys have seen quite frequently?", and they always are up front about it. The few repairs I have had done under warranty, it's usually been a known issue. I haven't had anyone keep things quiet.

Originally Posted by rdkind62

I'm still a little confused here. I have not been on here for years and years, but I have been here for a year or so, so I don't know if I'm a newbie or not. It seems that most people posting here believe that just because they have posted 3K or so posts means they are old timers and that entitles them to say the "newbies" are all to blame for a lame site. Just because I don't make a bunch of posts that say, "nice car" or "kewl beans" or my all time favorite, "+1" doesn't mean that I am a newbie. I read nearly every post and if I don't agree then I just pass on it, if I have something to say then I'll say it. I suggest you get off this newbie thing and maybe point out the people that are just plain dumb asses. If you want to talk about something of importance then start a thread. My guess is most every subject has been covered at one time or another and if everybody just did a search then there would be no reason to start a new thread. No new threads means no forum. Which do you prefer?

+1.

(OK, that was a joke).

I couldn't agree more. I, too, am a newbie, by whatever criteria is used. I, too, do not pad my thread count with silly posts, but try to read many posts and comment when I feel so moved. I wish we would just get rid of the post count, and judge someone's experience based on the content of their posts. At least bimmerfest does not give their members a rank or special name based on the number of posts.

I don't care how many posts you have or don't have, if you post crap, you should hear about it.

I have stopped looking at the Ask a Dealer forum with any sort of regularity because of the issues presented. The description of this forum states, "Have a question for a dealer about leasing, warranty options or just general questions from researching your new car purchase? Let one of the many BMW dealer representatives on Bimmerfest lend a helping hand."

I don't recommend only allowing dealers to post responses here. There is good information from other 'festers who are not dealers. However, I would roughly estimate 98% of the responses are not from dealers, not even people who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

This forum has become very limited in its utility for me, so I just PM Adrian with any serious question. I have always been given an honest response, and that is why I am using him for my next purchase/first ED. It is a shame because I think several questions I have asked may be of use to other 'festers.

I have only been here a year or so, and hopefully this trend cycles, and this will again become a useful forum. Until then, I'll you on the ED board, E9x board, F10 board...

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP

You know I was thinking the same thing about a month ago and never thought to post about it. I think the dealers on here especially the loyal and hard working ones like Adrian, Phillipe, Woz, Jeremy, Ivan, JW, ect are getting tired of being beat up by people looking to squeeze blood from a turnip. I really dont blame the dealers for not wanting to spend time here talking to us, but I must admit that I this recent negative attitude from newbies is making me a bit angry because I consider all of the aforementioned dealers good guys, very valuable contributors to the board and even friends in an acquaintance sort of way. I like these guys enough that if I were in their neck of the woods I would drop by just to say hi and talk shop. A little banter and BS ing back and forth is fine when board members know each other....I give Adrian, Phillipe and Ivan a little heckling once in a while, but it is all in good fun. The newbies seem hell bent on getting the car for $500 over invoice, free mats and no doc fees or rate markup. I fully realize these deals happen (they have even happened for me), but reality is that these are the exception not the norm. These guys do have a business to run and will go out of business if they sell everything for zero profit (500 over really is zero profit..lets be honest). I think the newbies do not respect and apprciate the depth of contribution these sponsors and non-sponsor client advisors provide to the board. I hope each of the client advisors (those mentioned and not mentioned) read my post and realize that the majorityof festers do appreciate your contributions and like to see you guys here once in a while even if its just to say
I am confident that I speak for the majority of the festers.

End rant/

Another member of the Fest and I met for drinks and one of our topics was the beating up of dealers on the page. Someone is buying a $50,000.00 car and they beat up 5 Sales Associates and waste their time for a $400 difference. Really? $400?

A good deal is someone providing a level of service that exceeds your expectations and allowing them to be profitable at a fair price. If I sold BMW's I would wind up in jail for slapping someone who is going to take up 5 hours of my time and do business with someone else because of $400 or less.

I've only been around a short period of time, but i'd like to spout up and say that I appreciate the hard work and information that the sponsors and other dealers provide to this community. It wouldn't be the same place if Adrian or philippek or any of the others weren't in here giving us the inside scoop or explaining to a bimmer noob (like myself) how things work, what things mean, and what to expect.

Heck, I'm not sure I can ever forgive philippek for starting his "ED in 129 Easy steps" after I was well down that path. Had he planned his vacation more in line with mine, it would have saved me a great deal of time. thanks, buddy.
(for the slow readers - that was dry humor - his video is amazing and the thread should be cleaned and stickied IMHO)

I have the posters on this forum to thank for giving me the information I had to get a decent deal on my car. I hope moronic nubs looking for "ED at ED Invoice + $.05" don't convince the posters here, both CA and experienced bmw sage, to stop coming and provide an invaluable service to this community.

Originally Posted by schnell525

Adrian, you have been very helpful as reading through your posts on the Fest. I posted the thread about lease buy outs. So what's the problem if it helps a dealer move another car...., especially when BMW gets their money up front now, vs. down the road in a couple years? I know I'd take a full buy out now at full value, then a stream of payments over time.

Woz and the other dealers have done a great job....so I don't understand why you feel a lease pay off question turns it into amatuer hour, especially when a customer writes a check to dump a lease, and to buy or lease another new car.

Best wishes,
Schnell.

Schnell, I have an issue with lease buy outs. The problem is in reality it doesn't help a dealer move another new car and it takes a possible retailable pre-owned unit off the pre-owned market. You don't see it that way, but BMW FS, dealers, and CA's realized it and did something about it. Moreover, the lease buy out became more like buying a new car- how much is MMR (invoice), how much should I pay over MMR (ahh, $500 over is enough), etc. and we then get into a futile debate about what's fair and what's not and then the dealer bashing begins because we're trying to make a profit on a used car that's not even yours to begin with- it's BMWFS' and then the center's car once they buy it. Or in some cases, some would beat up BMW FS for not being more accomodating and acted like they were doing BMW FS a favor by taking the lease off their hands. I beg to differ.

So those days of lease buy outs and MMR and all that how much over, what will you do for me "in this economy" (hate that phrase), are over. If you bought your lease out prior to 7/1, consider yourself fortunate. It's a different situation entirely. In many cases, you might as well pay residual now as MMR's have equaled or surpassed residual values.

Just my .02 the sponsors and group buy forum is a joke!

its should be called bump-fest

Originally Posted by BlueC

This is why this board goes to hell. Posts like these.

Glad I can help, then.

Originally Posted by BlueC

FWIW, my SA has always disclosed known issues. I usually ask about something to the effect of "is this something you guys have seen quite frequently?", and they always are up front about it. The few repairs I have had done under warranty, it's usually been a known issue. I haven't had anyone keep things quiet.

That's great for you. I have a similar SA. In fact when he changed BMW dealerships, I did too!

But for every good apple, and good outcome, there are many many stories of people getting screwed. Indeed, consumers are, generally, so ignorant, that most don't even know the extent of their screwing.

If there a dealers (or more accurately dealership employees) who post truly insightful and helpful information, kuds- but when they are, essentially, just regurgitating the 'public party line' it really adds little.

And just to be clear, I am not one to beat the crap out of a salesman for 500... unless that 500 comes up AFTER we've agreed on a deal. Heck, last time I bought a car I gave him a $200 Ruths Chris gift card.

A

Originally Posted by BlueC

This is why this board goes to hell. Posts like these.

its only the internet. give yourself a break.......

Originally Posted by Araq44

Another member of the Fest and I met for drinks and one of our topics was the beating up of dealers on the page. Someone is buying a $50,000.00 car and they beat up 5 Sales Associates and waste their time for a $400 difference. Really? $400?

A good deal is someone providing a level of service that exceeds your expectations and allowing them to be profitable at a fair price. If I sold BMW's I would wind up in jail for slapping someone who is going to take up 5 hours of my time and do business with someone else because of $400 or less.

like it or not, its my 400 bucks and i'll do what the f*ck i want with it.....

Originally Posted by ard

When dealers were tacking $5000+ over MSRP on the e39m5, (and the E60 for the first 3 months!) they were unapologetic saying "It is what the market will support"

Why, now that the market is in the toilet, do these same dealers IGNORE this argument of "it is what the market will support", but rather whine about food on the table and 'we need to make a living'???

The hypocrisy is stunning.

And these helpful dealers are silent about many issues that they chose not to disclose- BMW to Dealer incentives, known issues with defects, tsbs, etc (like when we see multiple reports of specific failures, yet the dealers will say "Wow, we've never heard of that"...then we see a TSB for that same issue.)

Dude, you're talking about $5k over back in 2000 when folks were printing money from the dot com boom and were willing to pay whatever to get the hottest car. How many E39's were being sold back then. Count them. Please. What about the real estate market when people were in bidding wars for houses? So please spare us with the hypocrisy .

And what's wrong with whining? You're not gonna hold me, cuddle me, make me feel good, and give me a shoulder to cry on?

Thanks Adrian, I see what you are saying.

In the cases that I've broken a lease, nothing's been free. Some have cost less to get out, some have been big bucks. For when a car that gets a Manheim value for 37,500 and the payoff is 44,000....and the customer wants out and pays the diff (6,500), what's wrong with that, especially when the car gets sent to an auction or FS takes it. Then the customer negotiates a new car. I don't ask for 500 bucks over, I go much higher, as I expect service to be good in the future, and understand the sales guy and dealer needs to make a buck. A used car, is put back in the system, and a new car's out.

And hell, 400 bucks, is well, my 400 bucks as another poster says. If you guys don't want to deal, others do....as the economy has changed.

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

Dude, you're talking about $5k over back in 2000 when folks were printing money from the dot com boom and were willing to pay whatever to get the hottest car. How many E39's were being sold back then. Count them. Please. What about the real estate market when people were in bidding wars for houses? So please spare us with the hypocrisy .

I see, so 'everyone was doing it' is the rationale?

It is not possible for the consumer to argue with the justification of "this is what the market will bear, this is our price- if you can't afford it, well, sorry"

Fine.

All the consumer can say is "One day the market will change and we will remember it."

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

And what's wrong with whining?

Not a thing. Takes a real man to admit to whining.

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

You're not gonna hold me, cuddle me, make me feel good, and give me a shoulder to cry on?

Sure, if you sell it to me at cost minus 400. I'll even buy e-drinks.

A

Originally Posted by dboy11

Just my .02 the sponsors and group buy forum is a joke!

its should be called bump-fest

Looks like this has been addressed:

"Attention all sponsors

There has been a recent problem of excessive thread bumping. We want to clarify the rules for bumping your threads in this forum. In general, thread bumping is discouraged as it creates a competition to see what sponsor can bump more threads more frequently. The revised rules regarding posting and thread bumping are as follows:


You may have a total of 5 new threads or bumped threads total in one week's time (7 days).
A "bump" is defined as a response to an existing thread that adds no value to the thread. This includes replies with the word "bump" or replies saying things like "All PMs responded to" or "Still in stock".
We are simply looking to make sure the sponsor forum does not appear to be monopolized by any one sponsor. We feel as though these revised rules are in the best interest of everyone.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation."

Originally Posted by ard

I see, so 'everyone was doing it' is the rationale?

It is not possible for the consumer to argue with the justification of "this is what the market will bear, this is our price- if you can't afford it, well, sorry"

Fine.

All the consumer can say is "One day the market will change and we will remember it."



Not a thing. Takes a real man to admit to whining.




Sure, if you sell it to me at cost minus 400. I'll even buy e-drinks.

A

We're living in today, not yesterday. Who the heck is charging over sticker these days anyway, so why whine about it now? Who cares. So the customer times the market to buy cars, uhhh, yeah, okay, you play that game. It is what it is. (Love that phrase). The market at present is the market. It's dynamic, not static. It still doesn't mean that some of you have to be jerks about it.

I'll admit to whining. But I'll man up and put you on my ignore list, too. Do yourself a favor and reciprocate. You don't ever have to hear my whining again.

Cost minus $400 + drinks? I'm not even gonna ask how you arrived at that. It's not worth my time or any more key strokes.

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

Schnell, I have an issue with lease buy outs. The problem is in reality it doesn't help a dealer move another new car and it takes a possible retailable pre-owned unit off the pre-owned market. You don't see it that way, but BMW FS, dealers, and CA's realized it and did something about it. Moreover, the lease buy out became more like buying a new car- how much is MMR (invoice), how much should I pay over MMR (ahh, $500 over is enough), etc. and we then get into a futile debate about what's fair and what's not and then the dealer bashing begins because we're trying to make a profit on a used car that's not even yours to begin with- it's BMWFS' and then the center's car once they buy it. Or in some cases, some would beat up BMW FS for not being more accomodating and acted like they were doing BMW FS a favor by taking the lease off their hands. I beg to differ.

So those days of lease buy outs and MMR and all that how much over, what will you do for me "in this economy" (hate that phrase), are over. If you bought your lease out prior to 7/1, consider yourself fortunate. It's a different situation entirely. In many cases, you might as well pay residual now as MMR's have equaled or surpassed residual values.

I completely understand the point of view of BMW and dealer on this issue, and I can't blame them. Some of my posts and the main reason for my following this forum was to try to figure out what exactly was going on. The 7/1 change was significant, and quite frankly, several dealers that I spoke to were not very upfront about how the process had changed. Finally, I fine gentlemen at a dealer explained the multiple payoff program and the reason that the dealers and BMW were doing it. I get it now, but I am a little upset that I missed the boat by not buying my car prior to 6/30. I appreciate the dealers that participate on this forum and I wish that the dealers that I work with locally would be as helpful, honest and upfront as the guys on the forum. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of CA's that are no different than the stereotypical used car salesman.

Originally Posted by ard

And these helpful dealers are silent about many issues that they chose not to disclose- BMW to Dealer incentives, known issues with defects, tsbs, etc (like when we see multiple reports of specific failures, yet the dealers will say "Wow, we've never heard of that"...then we see a TSB for that same issue.)

What has not been disclosed? This forum gets the incentive threads faster than FS can post it on DCS.

There are DIYs and service bulletin infos in just about every sub forum relating to that model on BF.

Originally Posted by ard

I see, so 'everyone was doing it' is the rationale?

It is not possible for the consumer to argue with the justification of "this is what the market will bear, this is our price- if you can't afford it, well, sorry"

Fine.

All the consumer can say is "One day the market will change and we will remember it."



Not a thing. Takes a real man to admit to whining.




Sure, if you sell it to me at cost minus 400. I'll even buy e-drinks.

A

The market is what the market is....no business in their right mind want to sell anything at their cost. Retail Businesses are not non profit organizations. Because of less demand businesses including BMW have lowered their rates, offered incentives, rebates, payment programs, etc...dealers are selling cars for zero to no profit...I say we have done just about all we can.

Originally Posted by JW_BMW

What has not been disclosed? This forum gets the incentive threads faster than FS can post it on DCS.

There are DIYs and service bulletin infos in just about every sub forum relating to that model on BF.

Unless the dealer/sponsors stop participating.... Which some have indicated they have done. There was a $5,000 trunk money 'incentive' for the 550i that didn't get posted; so it would seem that a pullback is occurring.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Unless the dealer/sponsors stop participating.... Which some have indicated they have done. There was a $5,000 trunk money 'incentive' for the 550i that didn't get posted; so it would seem that a pullback is occurring.

Oh really? 100% BS... than what is this thread talking about ...
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...ies+incentives

Post date 06/03/09

- 2009 5 Series models have either 2.9% APR OR $5,000 Market Allowance.

Care to comment...

This thread brings up a good point. I definitely feel that in the short time I have been a member of this board the quality has gone down due to a small number of posters here. I don't know if they were screwed over by a dealer in the past or what, but some of them need to let it go.

I think anyone on this board needs to recognize that the dealer sponsors here ARE the good CAs that people want/tell their friends about, and any disparaging remarks need to be left offline, or in the appropriate forum here which is "Dealer Feedback/Vehicle Problems" where the forum description says "Have a bad experience at your BMW Center? Frustrated by problems or defects? Post your stories or comments here." Anywhere else is not appropriate imo.

Outside of that forum, I think a modicum of respect for the dealers that post here is warranted, and by respect, I mean respect for them and their chosen profession. Is that really too much to ask for considering these folks provide us with a wealth of information we would otherwise have no access to? I think not.

There is no doubt that everyday some poor schmoe is screwed over by a car dealer somewhere, but most likely, it is NOT anyone on this forum by anyone on this forum. If you feel you need to rant and rave about how awful "stealers" are, how invoice is a big lie, how awesome you are for putting it to a CA, etc. do it in the appropriate place, or don't do it at all. Hint: "Ask-A-Dealer" is not the appropriate forum.

TLDR: Small men talk big on the internet.

Originally Posted by JW_BMW

Oh really? 100% BS... than what is this thread talking about ...
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...ies+incentives

Post date 06/03/09

- 2009 5 Series models have either 2.9% APR OR $5,000 Market Allowance.

The way that it was explained to me by the dealer was that there was a special program that was good for 2 weeks for 550i only where there was $5,000 in trunk money. Since it was after the fact, I didn't pursue the question any further. In any event, I have seen less participation by dealer/sponsors recently. Which I believe was a related subject of this thread; if memory serves, you admitted reduced participation as well (somewhere around post number 2)....