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  #51  
Old 07-17-2009, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
The way that it was explained to me by the dealer was that there was a special program that was good for 2 weeks for 550i only where there was $5,000 in trunk money. Since it was after the fact, I didn't pursue the question any further. In any event, I have seen less participation by dealer/sponsors recently. Which I believe was a related subject of this thread; if memory serves, you admitted reduced participation as well (somewhere around post number 2)....
Dude, whatevers man...

FYI, some of the stuff that are posted here are not found anywhere else. You try looking up base MFs on edmunds and KBB.
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  #52  
Old 07-17-2009, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
Dude, whatevers man...

FYI, some of the stuff that are posted here are not found anywhere else. You try looking up base MFs on edmunds and KBB.
bingo. that info alone is worth gold.
trying to find MF or residual rates for other brands is almost impossible. and then trying to negotiate without having the information at hand is sure way to get taken at the dealership.
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  #53  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by adrian's bmw View Post
We're living in today, not yesterday. Who the heck is charging over sticker these days anyway, so why whine about it now? Who cares. So the customer times the market to buy cars, uhhh, yeah, okay, you play that game. It is what it is. (Love that phrase). The market at present is the market. It's dynamic, not static. It still doesn't mean that some of you have to be jerks about it.

I'll admit to whining. But I'll man up and put you on my ignore list, too. Do yourself a favor and reciprocate. You don't ever have to hear my whining again.

Cost minus $400 + drinks? I'm not even gonna ask how you arrived at that. It's not worth my time or any more key strokes.
I don't understand why some of these individuals are so upset with dealerships. Perhaps they have low-balled their CA enough where they don't get the straight information anymore.

My CA mentioned the lease cash back the other month when I was talking to him, I didn't even inquire about it. I'll put it this way, if you enjoy working with your CA and feel they did a good job, why ask for such a low price? (i.e. invoice or under invoice).

That would be like having dinner at a nice restaurant, being treated very well by your waiter, and then not tipping him because "hey, it's my money and I can do what I want". Tips are of course optional to some people.

Obviously the market influences the going rate of a vehicle price, but that doesn't mean you should not be expected to pay anything over invoice. And if they reject your offer, it's their choice, they're not trying to rip anyone off.
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  #54  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
What has not been disclosed? This forum gets the incentive threads faster than FS can post it on DCS.

There are DIYs and service bulletin infos in just about every sub forum relating to that model on BF.
I've never seen a dealer confirm a "BMW to Dealer" incentive. Ever. They just ignore it in their postings. They'll be all 'johnny on the spot' with the published info, but thats it.

I've never seen a dealer publish a TSB or advisory.

I've heard dealers- SAs- declare that 'wow, we've never had MAFs go bad', and "wow, a bad Vanos on an E39M5, how rare'... or "wow, that's too bad, that final stage resistor is a bear to get at- we need to tear the dash apart, it will be two hours so $360 plus tax" (and it is a 15minute job and a $60 part.)

My point is that the information does NOT come from the dealer participants - who are being lionized in this thread for the service they provide to this community- when in fact they are self serving salesmen. Nothing wrong with that either.
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  #55  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by adrian's bmw View Post
We're living in today, not yesterday. Who the heck is charging over sticker these days anyway, so why whine about it now? Who cares. So the customer times the market to buy cars, uhhh, yeah, okay, you play that game. It is what it is. (Love that phrase). The market at present is the market. It's dynamic, not static. It still doesn't mean that some of you have to be jerks about it.

I'll admit to whining. But I'll man up and put you on my ignore list, too. Do yourself a favor and reciprocate. You don't ever have to hear my whining again.

Cost minus $400 + drinks? I'm not even gonna ask how you arrived at that. It's not worth my time or any more key strokes.
Don't take it so personal Adrian. It is what it is. Past, Present...

I was most definitely not serious with my offer, sorry if you were insulted. I'm paying cost (invoice-dealer incentive+maco+training+shipping) plus prolly $500 to the salesman by the time it is done.

Ignore list? What's that? Forums would be pretty dead if one ignores everyone they don't agree with...

A
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  #56  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueC View Post
My CA mentioned the lease cash back the other month when I was talking to him, I didn't even inquire about it. .
BUT, the 1750 was a published offer. You could find it on the website. That's why they mention it.

The current $4500 in 'trunk money' for the X5 diesel is a 'bmw to dealer' incentive and was not published. Has ANYONE seen a BMW salesman confirm this number anywhere?
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  #57  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
I've never seen a dealer confirm a "BMW to Dealer" incentive. Ever. They just ignore it in their postings. They'll be all 'johnny on the spot' with the published info, but thats it.

I've never seen a dealer publish a TSB or advisory.

I've heard dealers- SAs- declare that 'wow, we've never had MAFs go bad', and "wow, a bad Vanos on an E39M5, how rare'... or "wow, that's too bad, that final stage resistor is a bear to get at- we need to tear the dash apart, it will be two hours so $360 plus tax" (and it is a 15minute job and a $60 part.)

My point is that the information does NOT come from the dealer participants - who are being lionized in this thread for the service they provide to this community- when in fact they are self serving salesmen. Nothing wrong with that either.
You are right...NOTHING useful comes out of this forum. Everything you see is published info already...there is nothing new to gain in this place.
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueC View Post
I don't understand why some of these individuals are so upset with dealerships. Perhaps they have low-balled their CA enough where they don't get the straight information anymore.

My CA mentioned the lease cash back the other month when I was talking to him, I didn't even inquire about it. I'll put it this way, if you enjoy working with your CA and feel they did a good job, why ask for such a low price? (i.e. invoice or under invoice).

That would be like having dinner at a nice restaurant, being treated very well by your waiter, and then not tipping him because "hey, it's my money and I can do what I want". Tips are of course optional to some people.

Obviously the market influences the going rate of a vehicle price, but that doesn't mean you should not be expected to pay anything over invoice. And if they reject your offer, it's their choice, they're not trying to rip anyone off.
Some individuals are just downright mooches and/or ingrates. Like I said before, if anyone has a problem with sponsors or dealers or CA's, leave, good riddance, fare thee well. If one finds that I don't reply or respond to a post that I find doesn't contribute to the true spirit of Bimmerfest and the improvement of this beloved community and forum, there's a pretty good chance you're on my ignore list. I don't have the time, patience, calories, or energy to commit a single keystroke to respond in kind or candor to anyone who is disparaging, condescending, or has a beef with dealers, CA's, or the car business making money.

All in all, this thread has made me realize who's appreciative of sponsor and dealer efforts and who's not. It's distilled the good, the bad, and the ugly. I don't think the good should be penalized, shorted, or even deprived of my insights or other's (i.e. Woz, PK, Kate, Ivan, Ali, etc.) with regard to programs, advice, or anything BMW related. I know I can't be here all the time, but others have pulled their boot straps and chipped in -especially non-dealers/CA's- for which I'm indebted, namely mclaren, but schley and many others who volunteer their time unselfishly. Sure, we sponsor CA's help keep the lights on around here and feel that maybe good karma and business will come our way by contributing in our own way.

And for those that thump their chests and show how big they are about the ridiculous below or barely above invoice deals you got- good for you. Kudos. Do us a huge favor and advertise the name of the CA, manager, and dealership so they get more small or no profit business. Clean out their inventory at those deals. Heck, we might even try to purchase cars from them at the wholesale level if they're hurting that bad. Chances are you were an exception rather than a rule. Because it's all about averages and if you got that kind of deal, there's a big chance that someone else paid more to offset the deal you got. It's the way it is. We make money from gross profit, not by simply moving metal. That's how we get paid. By commission. Sure volume creates more opportunities, but it's profit that makes the wheels turn. That's in any business. I'll get off my now.
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  #59  
Old 07-18-2009, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian's bmw View Post
Some individuals are just downright mooches and/or ingrates. Like I said before, if anyone has a problem with sponsors or dealers or CA's, leave, good riddance, fare thee well. If one finds that I don't reply or respond to a post that I find doesn't contribute to the true spirit of Bimmerfest and the improvement of this beloved community and forum, there's a pretty good chance you're on my ignore list. I don't have the time, patience, calories, or energy to commit a single keystroke to respond in kind or candor to anyone who is disparaging, condescending, or has a beef with dealers, CA's, or the car business making money.

All in all, this thread has made me realize who's appreciative of sponsor and dealer efforts and who's not. It's distilled the good, the bad, and the ugly. I don't think the good should be penalized, shorted, or even deprived of my insights or other's (i.e. Woz, PK, Kate, Ivan, Ali, etc.) with regard to programs, advice, or anything BMW related. I know I can't be here all the time, but others have pulled their boot straps and chipped in -especially non-dealers/CA's- for which I'm indebted, namely mclaren, but schley and many others who volunteer their time unselfishly. Sure, we sponsor CA's help keep the lights on around here and feel that maybe good karma and business will come our way by contributing in our own way.

And for those that thump their chests and show how big they are about the ridiculous below or barely above invoice deals you got- good for you. Kudos. Do us a huge favor and advertise the name of the CA, manager, and dealership so they get more small or no profit business. Clean out their inventory at those deals. Heck, we might even try to purchase cars from them at the wholesale level if they're hurting that bad. Chances are you were an exception rather than a rule. Because it's all about averages and if you got that kind of deal, there's a big chance that someone else paid more to offset the deal you got. It's the way it is. We make money from gross profit, not by simply moving metal. That's how we get paid. By commission. Sure volume creates more opportunities, but it's profit that makes the wheels turn. That's in any business. I'll get off my now.
I've been reading this thead with a bit of intrigue. Adrian hit it right on the head that for everyone man/woman who professes to the world that they paid XXX over/under invoice, there 10x as many other folks who are payment driven, paid the uplifted LRF, etc. and to them, they got a 'good deal'. One has to look at selling below invoice on a portfolio basis. If that is all they did, they wouldn't make a dime. Surely, CA's are not working pro bono. I work for the largest computer leasing company in the world (at least at the moment) and I go through this same excercise daily with respect to companies leasing computer equipment. Sure, we may cut company XYZ a deal but will surely make it up with company ABC. That is called business. As a wise man once said, you can't make money giving away what you are supposed to sell! That is called economics 101 my friends.
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  #60  
Old 07-18-2009, 08:27 AM
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i recently, around march i guess, was looking at a 2008 128i vert... I clearly new there was about $6000 off sticker, as posted here or BMW or I saw it somewhere... i brought that info to the negotiation table and was flat out told it wasn't true, and there was no way vert, even a model and a half years old were selling for anything less than sticker. and i'd venture to say that is the norm. The board sponsors have been very helpful in the past, but let's be honest, most of you are the minority.

my 2007 X3 was a lemon buy back because of the transmission (which was the same in the 128 and felt just the same problems with it) and I was blatantly told, WITH the TSB in my hands, that there wasn't a problem, there were NO software updates, and I must have typed up the TSB myself.
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  #61  
Old 07-18-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumac View Post
I think anyone on this board needs to recognize that the dealer sponsors here ARE the good CAs that people want/tell their friends about, and any disparaging remarks need to be left offline, or in the appropriate forum here which is "Dealer Feedback/Vehicle Problems" where the forum description says "Have a bad experience at your BMW Center? Frustrated by problems or defects? Post your stories or comments here." Anywhere else is not appropriate imo.

Outside of that forum, I think a modicum of respect for the dealers that post here is warranted, and by respect, I mean respect for them and their chosen profession. Is that really too much to ask for considering these folks provide us with a wealth of information we would otherwise have no access to? I think not.
+1

Showing some respect to those who both provide us with valuable information as well as help pay to keep the lights on here seems appropriate. Disagreeing about the appropriate amount of dealer profit is one thing, but some of the recent threads have strayed into what looked to me like incivility and personal attacks.
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  #62  
Old 07-18-2009, 09:11 AM
carnuts3 carnuts3 is offline
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I can't believe all the criticism and negativity I'm reading here about the "bad" dealerships and CA's. Of course there are bad dealerships/CA's...just like there are bad Realtors, doctors, appliance stores, and virtually anything else you could think of. If you don't like the way that you have been treated, go elsewhere. And, if you want to acquire some useful info so that you can deal more effectively and successfully in the future, then this forum can help. There is no other site that offers the depth and breath of info that this forum provides. Members should respect this fact and treat everyone accordingly. Discussions need to be kept positive, open, honest and to the point with the purpose of exchanging/sharing info. As was said, do the bashing somewhere else. We all have a vested interest in preserving the quality of this forum. Without question, this forum has provided me with invaluable info over the years that has helped make my buying experiences much more productive and enjoyable. I hope this can continue.
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  #63  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
The current $4500 in 'trunk money' for the X5 diesel is a 'bmw to dealer' incentive and was not published. Has ANYONE seen a BMW salesman confirm this number anywhere?
Have you thought about PMing, calling or emailing a sponsor to ask them directly? ...Of course you hadn't

Did you ever think maybe we are not allowed to post everything we know in a public forum?

Word for word in the bottom of every FS bulletin ...

The contents of this distribution are confidential and should not be shared with third parties for distribution.
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  #64  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:49 AM
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Honestly, a lot of the crying could be stopped if BMW adopted the original Saturn model: fixed price. No negotiating, no nothing. Take it or leave it.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. And people like a good deal. So, we shop around for good deals, and drive salespeople nuts. And usually there is a "sucker" salesperson or customer out there willing to make the other happy.

So, to the customers complaining about high profits and dealers who complain about customers asking for low-ball prices: you have the power to stop this. Get unionized, pick a price point. Wait, that would be anti-trust / price-fixing. Have BMW do it for you. Then it's legal.

Why don't we establish a "bimmerfest" price list?

peace.
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  #65  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:52 AM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
Have you thought about PMing, calling or emailing a sponsor to ask them directly? ...Of course you hadn't

Did you ever think maybe we are not allowed to post everything we know in a public forum?

Word for word in the bottom of every FS bulletin ...

The contents of this distribution are confidential and should not be shared with third parties for distribution.
Actually I got it confirmed elsewhere, so I didn't need to contact a sponsor. But for a good number of days there was a general confusion over this issue. Nobody could confirm it until the weight of the independent posts essentially confirmed it.

I know EXACTLY why the helpful dealers cannot confirm this information- my point was to highlight that their 'helpfullness' is carefully circumscribed by BMW and is always limited to "the party line". Once people know that- they the dealers can only give them part of the truth, readers can then better understand the advice they get. Or in this case, the lack of advice.

How many dealers kept this money from cars they were delivering in July- and still are?

Adrian's post is spot on- there is a spectrum of profits, and some people pay more. (I guess unfortunate he will never read this...) Sales managers seek to balance "how much will I get from this car if I sell it to ard for $500 or so, compared to keeping it and finding a sucker?" depends on how many customers they see each day, the ebb and flow of potential buyers... I suspect they are a bit nervous and would just as soon seal a deal now as opposed to seeing how it goes in a month or so. But I guess I am shopping at one of those weak dealerships that is slitting their own throat...



I will say this- on balance, as I read through this ASk a Dealer forum, members in general get quite a bit of help. But I think it is a reflection of the horrible support, information, and treatment many owners receive from retail dealerships. If I got that at mine, I'd never have ordered the X5 and I'd have sold the M5.

A
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  #66  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
How many dealers kept this money from cars they were delivering in July- and still are?A
And why shouldnt they be able to keep it? It's incentive cash. They can keep all or part of it. Whatever makes the deal happen. Youre not automatically entitled to it. Thats part of the negotiation. Thats one of the best things about the board is you get access to information that others do not. And you can use that information to better negotiate.

I for one do not even know why you come here as youre such the touted expert negotiator you have no need for this information.
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  #67  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Actually I got it confirmed elsewhere, so I didn't need to contact a sponsor. But for a good number of days there was a general confusion over this issue. Nobody could confirm it until the weight of the independent posts essentially confirmed it.
The point was nobody had to wait a good number of days...if you/they wanted something confirmed it's as simple as a PM.

The seller had every right to keep all, part, or none at all of the factory to dealer incentive. It is not a crime if seller ABC wants to keep it all nor is it a crime if XYZ wants to give it all away.
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  #68  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
The point was nobody had to wait a good number of days...if you/they wanted something confirmed it's as simple as a PM.

The seller had every right to keep all, part, or none at all of the factory to dealer incentive. It is not a crime if seller ABC wants to keep it all nor is it a crime if XYZ wants to give it all away.
not a crime, no... but when the seller hyms and hollars they aren't making ANY money if they sell to you for invoice, or 1000 over... that's $5500 they just made (not personally i know) for probably less than a full hours worth of work. not sure about the rest of you, but i barely break $30.
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  #69  
Old 07-18-2009, 12:14 PM
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Andrew*Debbie Andrew*Debbie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post

I've never seen a dealer publish a TSB or advisory.
There is a Mazda dealer that puts all the Mazda TSBs on their website.

BMW NA might have an agreement in place that prevents their dealers from doing the same.

There is a BMW website that has them all but access isn't free.
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  #70  
Old 07-18-2009, 12:37 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by The BoatMan View Post
And why shouldnt they be able to keep it? It's incentive cash. They can keep all or part of it. Whatever makes the deal happen. Youre not automatically entitled to it. Thats part of the negotiation. Thats one of the best things about the board is you get access to information that others do not. And you can use that information to better negotiate.
Agree, nothing 'wrong' with keeping it. Nothing wrong with lying to consumers faces and saying "We're only making $500 on this deal" when, in actual fact, there is a secret incentive of $4500. All 'a OK' in the car sales business. So excuse me if I don't suck up to the handful of BMW dealer employees here who post to gain customers.

(Any posters who are BMW certified Technicians?? (Actually I do know one here) These guys will be worth their weight in gold...I don't need help on buying a car, just in working on them!)

My 'issue', again, is all the helpful "dealer/sponsors" here who keep their mouths shut about all the trunk money deals that are going on. Some we hear about, some we don't. Sure they cannot talk about them by BMW policy, but before we fall all over ourselves commending dealers for posting here, recognize that they are doing this to make money at the expense of the consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The BoatMan View Post
I for one do not even know why you come here as youre such the touted expert negotiator you have no need for this information.
Just trying to help out...
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  #71  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:04 PM
obi.wan obi.wan is offline
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http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1801696

thought about posting in the news forum but no one goes there I think

salesperson to ceo of bmw canada
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  #72  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:24 PM
BlueC BlueC is offline
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Location: MN
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obi.wan View Post
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1801696

thought about posting in the news forum but no one goes there I think

salesperson to ceo of bmw canada
Interesting article.
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  #73  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:50 PM
SeaTown SeaTown is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Agree, nothing 'wrong' with keeping it. Nothing wrong with lying to consumers faces and saying "We're only making $500 on this deal" when, in actual fact, there is a secret incentive of $4500. All 'a OK' in the car sales business. So excuse me if I don't suck up to the handful of BMW dealer employees here who post to gain customers.
Actually I have a problem with lying to clients, as do most "proper" sales guys and girls. If a customer negotiates a $500 over invoice deal and is happy with it does it matter what bonuses there are after that?

I think the majority of posters from dealers here, arent in it to gain customers. They are here for the brand and the love of it (trying not to be corny here - failing). I post here to help and to really see what some client expect from a dealer. To be quite honest i'm glad some of you arent my clients just kidding...

Sometimes a job isnt all about the money.
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  #74  
Old 07-18-2009, 06:00 PM
CanadianDriver CanadianDriver is offline
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Location: Canada
 
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Posts: 66
Mein Auto: 2008 328xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by obi.wan View Post
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1801696

thought about posting in the news forum but no one goes there I think

salesperson to ceo of bmw canada
Thanks for the link obi.wan. I'm happy that bmw canada has a new president. I want to see changes esp. with pricing and euro delivery. I'm happy to learn from this article that the 2010 X3 starts at roughly 39,900... much better than the current 45k! but I digress...

Just to give everyone some perspective with regard to BMWs, US residents are lucky:
- cars costs a lot less vs. canada
- you guys pay invoice + $$$, we pay MSRP minus change
- you guys pay delivery of $800 included in the quoted price. we pay freight/pdi of $1900 extra!!!
- you guys pay less sales taxes, we pay pay 13%
- your no-charge maintenance includes items (brakes, wipers, etc) that we pay for here.
- euro delivery program is streamlined... here, no savings; process very different vs. US (to discourage customers)
- higher lease residual values in US (lower monthly payments for you guys)
- and many more reasons... like cheaper gas prices and cheaper insurance premiums

Bottom line: you guys are getting the best deal in the world! on top of that, you have these sponsors and techs offering their advice for free, and still people are asking for their first born? when is this going to stop?

Last edited by CanadianDriver; 07-19-2009 at 07:57 PM.
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  #75  
Old 07-19-2009, 09:16 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Location: South Florida
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
Oh really? 100% BS... than what is this thread talking about ...
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...ies+incentives

Post date 06/03/09

- 2009 5 Series models have either 2.9% APR OR $5,000 Market Allowance.

Care to comment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
The way that it was explained to me by the dealer was that there was a special program that was good for 2 weeks for 550i only where there was $5,000 in trunk money. Since it was after the fact, I didn't pursue the question any further. In any event, I have seen less participation by dealer/sponsors recently. Which I believe was a related subject of this thread; if memory serves, you admitted reduced participation as well (somewhere around post number 2)....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
The point was nobody had to wait a good number of days...if you/they wanted something confirmed it's as simple as a PM.

The seller had every right to keep all, part, or none at all of the factory to dealer incentive. It is not a crime if seller ABC wants to keep it all nor is it a crime if XYZ wants to give it all away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
Dude, whatevers man...

FYI, some of the stuff that are posted here are not found anywhere else. You try looking up base MFs on edmunds and KBB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW_BMW View Post
Have you thought about PMing, calling or emailing a sponsor to ask them directly? ...Of course you hadn't

Did you ever think maybe we are not allowed to post everything we know in a public forum?

Word for word in the bottom of every FS bulletin ...

The contents of this distribution are confidential and should not be shared with third parties for distribution.
You know JW is right. Woz, Adrian, PK, JW and others have gone ABOVE AND BEYOND to put information out there for us to know about. Furthermore, I can attest that a quick email or private message to one of these guys will be answered giving you the information you are seeking if it has not already been made public in the forums. Please remember to use search before you bug these guys though...no one hates repeat questions more than me. I have emailed these guys and said hey...I am thinking of buying xxxx and I thought there might be some program out that would help me can you tell me what the deals are this month and I tell you each time I get responses saying this is the program and good luck with your search. These guys will help us knowing full well they stand to gain nothing from it. I personally wished I lived in Atlanta, GA or South Bay, CA so I could just buy every new car from Adrian or PK. The only reason I do not go to a fest sponsor each and everytime is time constraints for making the trip, but I admit to feeling guilty when I dont buy from a fest sponsor since we are all friends here. Maybe some of you will think I am crazy for feeling guilty, but I have to be honest that I am old fashioned in that regard. You take care of me (not 500 over invoice, but take care of me in a total sense) I will keep coming back to you unless I can't or something has changed (person moved to new business, management changed, ect.). On top of that I ll send all my friends to you because I want to reciprocate the good treatment that I received as well as let me friends get the benefit of a salesperson's good treatment. Anyone who tries so much as to say the board C.A.'s are not top notch is, at best, kidding themselves and, at worst, committing libel.
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