This board is going to H

I am glad someone brought this up. Thank you dealers for providing this valueable information!! This is information you cant get anywhere. I just bought another brand vehicle and the type of info this forum provides for BMW purchasers does not exist for other brands. I attempted to gather the info using the web but basically it is pretty useless to get lease info for other brands out there. I am actually amazed that this information is given away, basically helping consumers to minimize profits of the dealers with the dealers helping this happen. I personally would never provide information to my customers of ways of how to minimize my commission.

In other thoughts, we need to start an FNGs hazing process. Newbz should read first, then post their 'wonderful' comments. I've been around forever but you can tell by my post count, reading is more interesting and educational. Also, is anybody actually buying a car, especially the non-dealers responding to this thread? Seems like all these people are tire kicking and just upset about something for years ago.

To the dealers, as always, a few bad apples have messed it up for everyone. So no matter how great of a CA you are, there is always doubt for the consumer, based on perception. All you can do is change that perception one deal at a time.

BTW on lighter note, Rene Zellweger drives a fully loaded 09 550i Sport, just saw her on TV, black on black. Good for her!

Enough already, let this post die. We all get the point.
cheers
vern

Originally Posted by obi.wan

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1801696

thought about posting in the news forum but no one goes there I think

salesperson to ceo of bmw canada

Mr. Jung hits the nail on the head with this Q/A answer and it has some relevance with the discussion on this thread:

Q. In the past, you have said competitors are buying market share by heavily discounting their cars and you don't believe in such a strategy. Do you still hold to that position?

A. All around the world it is a buyer's market. And actually the market -- consumers -- determines the price of a product, not the brand selling the product.

I do agree I said competitors are really discounting their products heavily. Now, you can ask, 'do you do that as well or not?' If we don't do that, we won't sell cars.

We have to act accordingly, but what BMW does not do is sell a car without making at least some profit. To do otherwise makes no sense.

And this:

Q. What is the BMW customer experience at dealerships you want to see cultivated?

A. The buying process is an emotional one and sometimes people forget that. Probably buying a BMW is one of the most emotional decisions a person will make. Consumers come with several expectations to a BMW dealer.

And if those expectations are not met -- if the consumer is not taken care of properly in terms of the test drive, explaining product features, the financing, the value of the old car -- then sales will be lost.

That is the first part. The second part is after-sales service. Consumers need to know why they pay what they do for service, how fast parts can be obtained if there is a problem and so forth. I am also a consumer and what I don't like is after I buy a product I am just treated as one of many. I don't want BMW customers to ever feel like one of many. I want salespeople to build a long-term, honest relationship with customers.

Originally Posted by Popeye

Honestly, a lot of the crying could be stopped if BMW adopted the original Saturn model: fixed price. No negotiating, no nothing. Take it or leave it.

philippek & I had a big debate about this once.

Why is it that I can buy a $200K diamond engagement ring off bluenile in 15s (and know that I got a good deal) but must spend a month trying to figure out what a fair price is for a given car and then have a "strategy" to actually get that price?

This insanity is mind boggling. There is NOTHING special about cars. It's a commodity. If Bob & I both get identical cars and on the delivery day I accidentally end up with his and Bob with mine -- none of us would ever know the difference, nor would we care even if we knew!!!

That's why I liked buying my car from Ricki. The entire process went like this:

- I hear you're selling cars for X?
- Yes.
- I wanna buy one.
- When?
- Now.
- OK.

[Fedex at doorstep in 3 days.]

That's it!!! She has cars, I have money. She takes my money, I take her car. BFD! This ain't rocket science.

And then I see people whining here about the CAs not offering a "relationship" or whatever. I'm sorry, are you buying a car or looking for a date? A dude who sold me a bag of cement last month didn't offer a "relationship." He is not gonna send me a Christmas card or wish me a Happy Birthday. Who gives a f.ck. A car is no different from a bag of cement, any one of them is the same as any other.

Gawd... You'd think people are adopting a baby here.

Originally Posted by coontie

A car is no different from a bag of cement, any one of them is the same as any other.

A bag of cement won't take you up to speeds that can land you in jail.

Originally Posted by coontie

philippek & I had a big debate about this once.

Why is it that I can buy a $200K diamond engagement ring off bluenile in 15s (and know that I got a good deal) but must spend a month trying to figure out what a fair price is for a given car and then have a "strategy" to actually get that price?

This insanity is mind boggling. There is NOTHING special about cars. It's a commodity. If Bob & I both get identical cars and on the delivery day I accidentally end up with his and Bob with mine -- none of us would ever know the difference, nor would we care even if we knew!!!

That's why I liked buying my car from Ricki. The entire process went like this:

- I hear you're selling cars for X?
- Yes.
- I wanna buy one.
- When?
- Now.
- OK.

[Fedex at doorstep in 3 days.]

That's it!!! She has cars, I have money. She takes my money, I take her car. BFD! This ain't rocket science.

And then I see people whining here about the CAs not offering a "relationship" or whatever. I'm sorry, are you buying a car or looking for a date? A dude who sold me a bag of cement last month didn't offer a "relationship." He is not gonna send me a Christmas card or wish me a Happy Birthday. Who gives a f.ck. A car is no different from a bag of cement, any one of them is the same as any other.

Gawd... You'd think people are adopting a baby here.

It is interesting how the used car sales manager evaluates your car when you are wanting to sell it to them.... Very close to what you have described - what is the make & model and options? They check the miles on the car, take it for a drive to see if there are any mechanical issues that present themselves and then they offer you a price. If you like the price, you have a deal; if you don't like the price, you don't have a deal.... Also, no B-day or XMAS cards from the used car sales manager (even if they buy your car)....

Originally Posted by BlueC

A bag of cement won't take you up to speeds that can land you in jail.

What?!

A bag of cement dropped from a roof of a medium building on the head of a pedestrian will land you in jail JUST as easy as a car would.

I mean......... SERIOUSLY.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

It is interesting how the used car sales manager evaluates your car when you are wanting to sell it to them.... Very close to what you have described - what is the make & model and options? They check the miles on the car, take it for a drive to see if there are any mechanical issues that present themselves and then they offer you a price. If you like the price, you have a deal; if you don't like the price, you don't have a deal.... Also, no B-day or XMAS cards from the used car sales manager (even if they buy your car)....

Exactly.

I took my old Nissan to a Carmax once. They came back with $4k below market. I said it's too low. They said the door is that way.

So much for that relationship.

Originally Posted by coontie

What?!

A bag of cement dropped from a roof of a medium building on the head of a pedestrian will land you in jail JUST as easy as a car would.

I mean......... SERIOUSLY.

I am starting to wonder if some are in fact commencing an adoption of a surrogate child....

Originally Posted by coontie

Exactly.

I took my old Nissan to a Carmax once. They came back with $4k below market. I said it's too low. They said the door is that way.

So much for that relationship.

And I will bet that you didn't get B-day or Christmas cards either....

Originally Posted by anE934fun

And I will bet that you didn't get B-day or Christmas cards either....

Yeah. X-mas cards. Sure.

That and a blowjob on the way out.

Originally Posted by coontie

philippek & I had a big debate about this once.

Why is it that I can buy a $200K diamond engagement ring off bluenile in 15s (and know that I got a good deal) but must spend a month trying to figure out what a fair price is for a given car and then have a "strategy" to actually get that price?

This insanity is mind boggling. There is NOTHING special about cars. It's a commodity. If Bob & I both get identical cars and on the delivery day I accidentally end up with his and Bob with mine -- none of us would ever know the difference, nor would we care even if we knew!!!

That's why I liked buying my car from Ricki. The entire process went like this:

- I hear you're selling cars for X?
- Yes.
- I wanna buy one.
- When?
- Now.
- OK.

[Fedex at doorstep in 3 days.]

That's it!!! She has cars, I have money. She takes my money, I take her car. BFD! This ain't rocket science.

And then I see people whining here about the CAs not offering a "relationship" or whatever. I'm sorry, are you buying a car or looking for a date? A dude who sold me a bag of cement last month didn't offer a "relationship." He is not gonna send me a Christmas card or wish me a Happy Birthday. Who gives a f.ck. A car is no different from a bag of cement, any one of them is the same as any other.

Gawd... You'd think people are adopting a baby here.

Amen.

The desire- by BMW corporate- to create a 'long term relationship of trust' is a way to exploit human nature for higher profit.

Proof? If it isn't an advantage WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?

BMW desperately wants to make buying a car an 'emotional adoption'... the reason for PCD processes, how to track the birth of your baby, etc, etc. All with the vision to create irrational decision making. IMHO



A

Originally Posted by ard

Amen.

The desire- by BMW corporate- to create a 'long term relationship of trust' is a way to exploit human nature for higher profit.

Proof? If it isn't an advantage WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?

BMW desperately wants to make buying a car an 'emotional adoption'... the reason for PCD processes, how to track the birth of your baby, etc, etc. All with the vision to create irrational decision making. IMHO



A

Yes, it's all a conspiracy to get you to pay more money.


It's about building customer loyalty. It's no surprise that the most successful brands are where they are because of customer loyalty. BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus are consistently at the top of the bunch because they have very loyal customers, they keep coming back over and over again. BMW offers ED, PCD, the online tracking, etc. as a way to keep you interested and emotionally attached to BMW so that you will come back to them when you want your next car. It's not just so that you will pay more money.

Some people like the fact that they can go to the dealership every 2 or 3 years and see a familiar face, someone that has sold you your last 2 or 3 cars, someone you trust, and someone that will give you a fair deal and will avoid the games. Other people like calling/emailing 20 dealerships for quotes and will drive 5 hours to save $100. Whichever one you are, more power to you...

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

Yes, it's all a conspiracy to get you to pay more money.


It's about building customer loyalty. It's no surprise that the most successful brands are where they are because of customer loyalty. BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus are consistently at the top of the bunch because they have very loyal customers, they keep coming back over and over again. BMW offers ED, PDC, the online tracking, etc. as a way to keep you interested and emotionally attached to BMW so that you will come back to them when you want your next car. It's not just so that you will pay more money.

Some people like the fact that they can go to the dealership every 2 or 3 years and see a familiar face, someone that has sold you your last 2 or 3 cars, someone you trust, and someone that will give you a fair deal and will avoid the games. Other people like calling/emailing 20 dealerships for quotes and will drive 5 hours to save $100. Whichever one you are, more power to you...

+1

If anyone is getting ripped off, it's the people who buys Chrysler and GM products right now. They are taking a big hit in depreciation when factoring in market values.

Originally Posted by coontie

Why is it that I can buy a $200K diamond engagement ring off bluenile in 15s (and know that I got a good deal) but must spend a month trying to figure out what a fair price is for a given car and then have a "strategy" to actually get that price?

That same 200K diamond that you say you know you got a good deal on at Bluenile will sell at 10 different prices from 10 different jeweler. That same 200K diamond will sell at different prices if it had a GIA cert vs an EGL cert vs none at all.

The profit margin/markup for diamonds are 200-400%+ ...

...yeah, Im sure you know you got a good deal

Originally Posted by JW_BMW

That same 200K diamond that you say you know you got a good deal on at Bluenile will sell at 10 different prices from 10 different jeweler.

OBVIOUSLY.

That's the point.

Let me tell you something. I used to dread, absolutely dread buying 3 things: cars, jewelry and furniture. Price discovery was impossible, I'd basically start out with the assumption that I'd get ripped off big time and work from there.

Then the Internet happened.

Now all of a sudden I didn't have to spend hours listening to a car salesman draw weird boxes on a piece of paper and run back & forth to "check with the sales manager" over every 20 bucks discounted. Yay!

if you know anything about bluenile, then you'd know they are universally hated by the jewelers' community. So, that already tells you something. I've never NOT ONCE seen a retail store beat bluenile. NEVER. I don't buy jewelry that often, maybe once or twice a year as gifts but where before I used to do a courtesy check with a local merchant, I don't even bother anymore.

Furniture is still out there. Probability of you getting ripped off is pretty close to 100%.

So. To summarize, buying a car is actually a very simple affair. I know that for a fact. But most dealers do not like it when it's simple, they like things to be complicated because in the confusion they rip people off. Simple.

Now, not all dealers are like that. Some are honest. But most aren't. So, when you're dealing with a real pain in the ass customer, it's because of this. It's not that he hates you personally, it's that he's already dealt with sleazy car salesmen in the past, more than once and he's assuming you're one of them. That's all.

Originally Posted by ard

Amen.

The desire- by BMW corporate- to create a 'long term relationship of trust' is a way to exploit human nature for higher profit.

Proof? If it isn't an advantage WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?

BMW desperately wants to make buying a car an 'emotional adoption'... the reason for PCD processes, how to track the birth of your baby, etc, etc. All with the vision to create irrational decision making. IMHO



A

Yea, and that's fine, really. Some people like that and that's their thing, others don't and that's ok too.

I just want to add one more thing -- something that I haven't seen mentioned thus far yet.

Consumer is king.

Yes. Even setting aside the obvious fact that consumer spending is 70% of the US economy.

I mean, specifically for cars. Consumers hold the upper hand, most definitely. Think about it. If BMW were to disappear tomorrow, what would happen? Well, it'd be a very bad day indeed but somehow I think we'd survive. But if consumers were to disappear tomorrow, what would happen to BMW?

Now, that's not to say the consumers are perfect. They are not. Most are idiots, in fact. Some expect a German car for the price of a Lada and whine when they don't get it. Others overpay twice the amount and then come here whining about getting ripped off. They wouldn't know a money factor from their own asses. They've also been screwed many times in the past and hate the whole car buying experience.

Sad but true. Bad news for the CAs who have to take it all in stride.

Meh. Anybody who is in the business of selling anything, products or services, knows full well that most of the time what customers want and what customers need are two VERY different things. What can you do? Such is life.

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

Yes, it's all a conspiracy to get you to pay more money.


It's about building customer loyalty. It's no surprise that the most successful brands are where they are because of customer loyalty. BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus are consistently at the top of the bunch because they have very loyal customers, they keep coming back over and over again. BMW offers ED, PCD, the online tracking, etc. as a way to keep you interested and emotionally attached to BMW so that you will come back to them when you want your next car. It's not just so that you will pay more money.

Some people like the fact that they can go to the dealership every 2 or 3 years and see a familiar face, someone that has sold you your last 2 or 3 cars, someone you trust, and someone that will give you a fair deal and will avoid the games. Other people like calling/emailing 20 dealerships for quotes and will drive 5 hours to save $100. Whichever one you are, more power to you...

So BMW is "about building customer loyalty" just out of the kindness of their hearts? Just because it makes them feel good when they go to bed? There is no BUSINESS reason for doing this, right?

Oh, I'm sorry, I reread your post- you did say its "not just so you pay mroe money.

I agree it isn't a single dimension- there are many factors that go into the mix... I also don't think most dealers/salesman are out to screw consumers... but they will certainly use everything they can (as they should).

A

Originally Posted by ard

So BMW is "about building customer loyalty" just out of the kindness of their hearts? Just because it makes them feel good when they go to bed? There is no BUSINESS reason for doing this, right?

Oh, I'm sorry, I reread your post- you did say its "not just so you pay mroe money.

I agree it isn't a single dimension- there are many factors that go into the mix... I also don't think most dealers/salesman are out to screw consumers... but they will certainly use everything they can (as they should).

A

It's not about increasing the transaction cost... it's basically about getting you to come back to them for your next car. They want to give to a reason to want another BMW. So yes, they hope it will create more revenue and more profit for them in the future... but not necessarily that it will increase the price you pay for each car.

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

It's not about increasing the transaction cost... it's basically about getting you to come back to them for your next car. They want to give to a reason to want another BMW. So yes, they hope it will create more revenue and more profit for them in the future... but not necessarily that it will increase the price you pay for each car.

All of which ties into customer service. BMW seems, for the most part, quite focused on that aspect.

Ability to pick and choose options on vehicles, variety of delivery methods, etc, etc.

Of course their motivation is to increase revenue. More sales = more money, right? It doesn't mean they are simply increasing the cost to everyone. I would rather they push motivation on customers to return so that sales increase rather than degrade the quality in their cars to increase NOI.

oh come on, what a bunch of whiners...... taking up for the dealers like they are little helpless babies....... yeah, there are some folks on here that are too harsh, but thats just how they are, ignore them....but dont act like these dealers are royalty......they get a lot of business from people on here.

We live in a world where you'll always have people that just don't appreciate what you do for them...no matter what. I think the sponsors, dealers, CAs and likes should pay more attention to the folks that appreciate their hard work and the vast information that they share and/or give on this forum. They shouldn't let the greedy and ungrateful people who couldn't save a $1 on their BMW deal ruin it for the rest of us.

To all the sponsors, dealers, CAs and those who share a lot of of information and knowledge on this forum THANK YOU. Please be proud and happy that you are able to help the rest of us who are here to gain knowledge, information and understanding about BMW cars, deals, etc and are not only interested in saving a few bucks.

Once again THANK YOU VERY MUCH and keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by SergioCordoza

oh come on, what a bunch of whiners...... taking up for the dealers like they are little helpless babies....... yeah, there are some folks on here that are too harsh, but thats just how they are, ignore them....but dont act like these dealers are royalty......they get a lot of business from people on here.

I don't think some take up for us as much as they're simply thankful that we support this site and some of us contribute as unselfishly as we can. At the end of the day, sponsors pay for advertising and we reap the rewards of advertising. Advertising dollars help this site. Mind you, I depend on good karma and referrals. I don't shill. Period. Therein, lies the difference.

As for the harsh mooches and grinders, the ignore list grows.

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw

....... the ignore list grows.

Hilarious.. Oooooh, I'm SO hurt.

Like a 5 year old who puts their fingers in their ears and says LA LA LA LA LA...

(I guess the good news is that he won't see this reply and he cannot be offended by it, since I am on his list! )

Adrian has been here for over 6 years contributing to Bimmerfest and I for one am thankful. Im not naive, he has earned a great deal of business but he has earned it.

Youve been a member for not even a month. What good have you done here except sturr up trouble? Go ahead name one thing weve learned from you.

Originally Posted by ard

Hilarious.. Oooooh, I'm SO hurt.

Like a 5 year old who puts their fingers in their ears and says LA LA LA LA LA...

(I guess the good news is that he won't see this reply and he cannot be offended by it, since I am on his list! )