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  #1  
Old 09-18-2009, 08:44 AM
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Businessweek: Mercedes and BMW Hit Hardest by Slump

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...916_851170.htm

and the excellent time to buy a BMW continues.

Last edited by Joeb427; 09-18-2009 at 09:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:47 AM
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http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...916_851170.htm

and the excellent time to buy a BMW continues.
Good article. But this just means fewer cars will be produced rather than getting below invoice deals at stealerships
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  #3  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:53 AM
bulwinkl24 bulwinkl24 is offline
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Good article. But this just means fewer cars will be produced rather than getting below invoice deals at stealerships
i got a below invoice deal....
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2009, 11:00 AM
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Interesting article.

I certainly favor to see BMW remain independent (as well as MB), but it seems that the future holds other things in store for us. Imagining that BMW and MB will also fall into the well and emerge as a "rebadger" makes me wonder how much that will stunt engineering development overall in the automotive sector.

In the end though, you gotta survive to produce.
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You will rue this day, RUE THIS DAY
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:53 PM
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i got a below invoice deal....
On a MY2009 vehicle?
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2009, 02:10 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Interesting article.

I certainly favor to see BMW remain independent (as well as MB), but it seems that the future holds other things in store for us. Imagining that BMW and MB will also fall into the well and emerge as a "rebadger" makes me wonder how much that will stunt engineering development overall in the automotive sector.

In the end though, you gotta survive to produce.
And, given the Audi cost advantage, MB and BMW will have to find ways to 'partner'. Sharing component production is a well-established way to cut the development cost. Both MB and BMW have shared component development cost with other partners, so this should be a fairly easy decision to arrive at. Apparently not. Cutting production only gets so far.
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:32 PM
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I got 2400 below invoice on a 2009 328i Coupe
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2009, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
And, given the Audi cost advantage, MB and BMW will have to find ways to 'partner'. Sharing component production is a well-established way to cut the development cost. Both MB and BMW have shared component development cost with other partners, so this should be a fairly easy decision to arrive at. Apparently not. Cutting production only gets so far.
With MB and BMW, on some levels, it would be Lambo and Ferrari sharing development. Perhaps not quite so heated but as the article hinted, there is a history between the two.

I guess when it comes to survival people can forget the past...
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:52 PM
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It would be a hard pill to swallow, but as long as they use the best aspect of each producer it may not be too bad. As long as the reliabilty stays the same it may not be too bad to see some cars out there with BMW driver oriented enginering with Merc design. It could also be horrible to see some BMW out there with Merc reliability and driving characteristics. In a less drastic scenario it may not be to bad to see the two team up to cut the cost on pure tech development and inovation. It could be beneficial to cut the cost on preparing tech items such as PDC or hybrid/fuel cell tech or other items they are working on that we do not know about. It looks clear that they may have to start some tie ups soon or face being cut out of the market.
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:56 PM
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well, the recession is supposedto be over....so BMW can continue the same. Hopefully one day they can deliver value.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:09 PM
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(snip)
Until recently, customers always wanted to move up to a larger class when purchasing a new car, but now the opposite is true. Mercedes-Benz purchasers are ordering an E-Class instead of an S-Class luxury sedan, or a compact executive C-Class instead of a larger E-class. A similar development can be observed at BMW, with serious consequences for the carmaker.
(snip)

This is exactly right. My parents replaced their 1998 Audi A8 4.2 Quattro with a new Audi A4 2.0T Quattro. The A4 has grown up a lot, and a 2-liter turbo is more than enough power unless you're taking it out on the track (which they don't). They found themselves questioning whether they "needed" a 4.2-liter V8 with 300 horsepower. If my parents are any indication of a larger trend, then BMW, Audi, and Mercedes are facing some serious changes ahead.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:20 PM
WhoozYaDaddy WhoozYaDaddy is offline
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On a MY2009 vehicle?
Yep! $3k below. This was the only impulse car purchase I ever made.
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  #13  
Old 09-18-2009, 08:45 PM
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Yep! $3k below. This was the only impulse car purchase I ever made.
You didn't get that without a BMW incentive to the dealer.
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:48 PM
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(snip)
Until recently, customers always wanted to move up to a larger class when purchasing a new car, but now the opposite is true. Mercedes-Benz purchasers are ordering an E-Class instead of an S-Class luxury sedan, or a compact executive C-Class instead of a larger E-class. A similar development can be observed at BMW, with serious consequences for the carmaker.
(snip)

This is exactly right. My parents replaced their 1998 Audi A8 4.2 Quattro with a new Audi A4 2.0T Quattro. The A4 has grown up a lot, and a 2-liter turbo is more than enough power unless you're taking it out on the track (which they don't). They found themselves questioning whether they "needed" a 4.2-liter V8 with 300 horsepower. If my parents are any indication of a larger trend, then BMW, Audi, and Mercedes are facing some serious changes ahead.
Personally I doubt it. Pick up trucks actually made up a very large percentage of the cars that were purchased during the "Cash for Clunkers" thing; I think as much as 1/3.



That stuff in the article about BMW being behind on technological development is a bunch of hooey! They've been working on hydrogen power for years. They've introduced an electric Mini. They're not trying to build a Prius, but they have two performance hybrid models coming to the U.S. next year. They are constantly working to improve the performance of their engines and reducing fuel consumption. Their plant in South Carolina is very environmentally friendly because BMW put a lot of money into making it that way. There's really not much in that article about BMW that is very accurate.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 09-18-2009 at 09:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-19-2009, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cwinter View Post
Interesting article.

I certainly favor to see BMW remain independent (as well as MB), but it seems that the future holds other things in store for us. Imagining that BMW and MB will also fall into the well and emerge as a "rebadger" makes me wonder how much that will stunt engineering development overall in the automotive sector.
Reports of BMW's death may be premature:

08/2008 http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aut.../10235798.html

06/2009 http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/30/r...-automaker-in/

09/2009 http://www.thestate.com/101/story/92...k=omni_popular

They're just inches away....and I'm far more satisfied with my E93 than the LS it replaced....wouldn't have an IS....

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 09-19-2009 at 02:52 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-19-2009, 07:33 AM
WhoozYaDaddy WhoozYaDaddy is offline
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You didn't get that without a BMW incentive to the dealer.
You may be right. I don't know about BMW's dealer relation on that deal. However, the price was way lower than what I expected and I bought the car. Just like everything else, BMW or the dealer needs to move inventory when they are overstocked to maintain cash flow. Right now it is a buyers market in the premium car market.
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Joeb427 View Post
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...916_851170.htm

and the excellent time to buy a BMW continues.
And, sad to say, BusinessWeek is up for sale.
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  #18  
Old 09-19-2009, 01:11 PM
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I got 2400 below invoice on a 2009 328i Coupe
Won't happen on a 335.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:59 PM
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Won't happen on a 335.
I just got $2200 below invoice on a '09 335i sedan. That was, of course, with incentives available. Without the incentives I paid probably right at invoice.
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Old 09-19-2009, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Reports of BMW's death may be premature:

08/2008 http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aut.../10235798.html

06/2009 http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/30/r...-automaker-in/

09/2009 http://www.thestate.com/101/story/92...k=omni_popular

They're just inches away....and I'm far more satisfied with my E93 than the LS it replaced....wouldn't have an IS....

.
I don't think that article writes of BMW tanking and going out of business. That being said, I do agree with the article's premise that if your key competitors make significantly more profit due to cost cutting measures it's time to re-evaluate. You can't stay competitive that way.
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  #21  
Old 09-19-2009, 06:25 PM
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I don't think that article writes of BMW tanking and going out of business. That being said, I do agree with the article's premise that if your key competitors make significantly more profit due to cost cutting measures it's time to re-evaluate. You can't stay competitive that way.
An interesting question. BMW charges significantly more than Lexus for competing models, and if the LS is any measure, one gets what one pays for.

That BMW is neck 'n' neck with the traditional market leader [Lexus] says much about quality of life vs. price.

My experience is that Lexus sells for its reliability - that's real, tip-top, and a big draw.

BMW's 3 series has pretty good numbers in Consumers' Union's reliability ratings, but mainly is better looking and better to drive. The 5/6 series rides + handles better than anything Lexus has. Lexus can't compete with the 7, really, unless reliability is the buyer's main thing. 750Li's rear legroom is much, much more comfortable than in Lexus's LS extended wheelbase, BTW.

On Lexus's up side, they're way ahead of BMW, hybrid-wise, now.

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 09-19-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
An interesting question. BMW charges significantly more than Lexus for competing models, and if the LS is any measure, one gets what one pays for.

That BMW is neck 'n' neck with the traditional market leader [Lexus] says much about quality of life vs. price.

My experience is that Lexus sells for its reliability - that's real, tip-top, and a big draw.

BMW's 3 series has pretty good numbers in Consumers' Union's reliability ratings, but mainly is better looking and better to drive. The 5/6 series rides + handles better than anything Lexus has. Lexus can't compete with the 7, really, unless reliability is the buyer's main thing. 750Li's rear legroom is much, much more comfortable than in Lexus's LS extended wheelbase, BTW.

On Lexus's up side, they're way ahead of BMW, hybrid-wise, now.

.
Lexus is banking on the Hybrid but Diesel is where BMW and the Germans car makers as a whole are one up on the Asians car makers. Imo diesel saves gas and gobs of torque to boot, is the better way to go because you don't suffer much by way of performance and you get great mileage. The Diesel engines also last much longer than the Hybrid drive trains and their limited battery.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:05 PM
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No doubt the German auto makers have decades of diesel experience, and Iím impressed with the latest BMW diesels. But, donít rule out hybrids. Electric motors also have a huge amount of torque and can be used for resistance in braking which recharges the batteries as well. Battery technology has advanced a lot in the last few years and will continue to improve.

I think an electric would be great for an around the town car. For long trips, a diesel will get you there very efficiently.
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:00 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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No doubt the German auto makers have decades of diesel experience, and Iím impressed with the latest BMW diesels. But, donít rule out hybrids. Electric motors also have a huge amount of torque and can be used for resistance in braking which recharges the batteries as well. Battery technology has advanced a lot in the last few years and will continue to improve.

I think an electric would be great for an around the town car. For long trips, a diesel will get you there very efficiently.
Or, a diesel-electric hybrid.... The best of both worlds.
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