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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 06-12-2016, 05:39 PM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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Question P0335 & P0021: Are they related and what are the causes?

Good evening everyone!

I apologize ahead of time for a long post.....but here we go....

This happened on a 2006 550i today.
On the way home today, the engine almost stalled and half of the dashboard lit up.
DSC, Brake malfunction, SES, etc. The car seemed to recover and drove fine the rest of the way home. I checked the codes when I got back: P0335 and P0021. Cleared the codes. Same thing happened later in the day after about 15 minutes of driving. Idling was also kinda rough, nothing terrible, but +/1 100rpms or so.

Here is a code description:
P0335 is a "Crankshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit"
P0021 is a ""A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance"

The first question is: Are these two related?
I am guessing they are, but then the next question is:
Other than bad crankshaft position sensor or connectors to that sensor, what else can cause this?

Can a fuel pump going bad cause this behavior?
Here is why I bring up a possibility of a fuel pump:

Rarely, the car doesn't start. Usually happens on a very hot day. It happened probably a dozen or so times each of the past few summers. I always attributed it to something intermittent in the clutch position sensor. After completely turning the car off a few times it would always start again. Then I noticed that during this non-start condition, the key would not release from the steering column if the clutch was depressed (this means the sensor works!). I also notices that this no-start condition would happen with a quarter or less of a tank of fuel. This happened again a couple of times this week when we had 90F+ days, with less than 1/2 of a tank of fuel.

Then today this other behavior appeared. No I wonder if this has nothing to do with a fuel pump or filter. The car has 110k miles on it.

Thank you all for your help and ideas!
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2008 X5 4.8 - sport package, 20" rims
2006 550i - 6-speed, sport package
2006 X5 3.0 (retired) - sport package
2001 330i (retired) - 5-speed/sport/heated seats/xenons/DICE iPod interfaces
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2016, 06:12 PM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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Question E60: P0335 & P0021 codes, are they related? Possible causes?

Good evening everyone!

I apologize ahead of time for a long post.....but here we go....

This happened on a 2006 550i today.
On the way home today, the engine almost stalled and half of the dashboard lit up.
DSC, Brake malfunction, SES, etc. The car seemed to recover and drove fine the rest of the way home. I checked the codes when I got back: P0335 and P0021. Cleared the codes. Same thing happened later in the day after about 15 minutes of driving. Idling was also kinda rough, nothing terrible, but +/1 100rpms or so.

Here is a code description:
P0335 is a "Crankshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit"
P0021 is a ""A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance"

The first question is: Are these two related?
I am guessing they are, but then the next question is:
Other than bad crankshaft position sensor or connectors to that sensor, what else can cause this?

Can a fuel pump going bad cause this behavior?
Here is why I bring up a possibility of a fuel pump:

Rarely, the car doesn't start. Usually happens on a very hot day. It happened probably a dozen or so times each of the past few summers. I always attributed it to something intermittent in the clutch position sensor. After completely turning the car off a few times it would always start again. Then I noticed that during this non-start condition, the key would not release from the steering column if the clutch was depressed (this means the sensor works!). I also notices that this no-start condition would happen with a quarter or less of a tank of fuel. This happened again a couple of times this week when we had 90F+ days, with less than 1/2 of a tank of fuel.

Then today this other behavior appeared. No I wonder if this has nothing to do with a fuel pump or filter. The car has 110k miles on it.

Thank you all for your help and ideas!
__________________
2008 X5 4.8 - sport package, 20" rims
2006 550i - 6-speed, sport package
2006 X5 3.0 (retired) - sport package
2001 330i (retired) - 5-speed/sport/heated seats/xenons/DICE iPod interfaces
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  #3  
Old 06-13-2016, 10:31 AM
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tim330i tim330i is offline
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I moved your question to our E60 5 Series forum, you'll get more help in here. Have you searched around for those codes to see what solutions other people have posted?

Tim
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  #4  
Old 06-13-2016, 10:43 AM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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Tim,

Yes I have. Not much info on P0021, the other one is generally a camshaft sensor issue (either wiring, or the sensor itself). I'm trying to see if there are other, less conventional, problems what manifest in this way.

-boriska00
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2008 X5 4.8 - sport package, 20" rims
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  #5  
Old 06-14-2016, 02:24 AM
DanielFD DanielFD is offline
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no start on a hot day is almost always a camshaft sensor. That issue + the codes your getting all point to the cranshaft sensor being bad. Change it and work your way from there, but 90% thats all thats wrong in your car and nothing else.
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  #6  
Old 06-14-2016, 08:23 AM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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DanielFD,

I agree. I'm just VERY curious how fuel level fits into this whole picture?
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  #7  
Old 06-14-2016, 08:27 AM
DanielFD DanielFD is offline
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Could be coincidence, though a tired fuel pump can cause the issues ur having it wont throw cranshaft sensor codes for sure. Could be ur having both issues though i doubt your luck is that bad. Start with the cranshaft position sensor and work your way from there.
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:58 AM
pocholin pocholin is online now
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I've had the two same sensors go bad in the past, but in a 2004 Nissan Maxima. Once I replaced them the car worked fine for 150k miles after that until I sold it (with ~250k miles). Fuel pump was not an issue as it was never replaced.
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2016, 07:18 PM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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Update...

Low fuel had nothing to do with it - it happened on a full tank too.
I replaced camshaft position sensors...thought it fixed it....I was wrong.
It ran fine for 2 weeks, then today it wouldn't start again. Locked everything, went back into the house and 30 minutes later it started just fine.

What makes this frustrating is that this is so intermittent and there are no codes stored.
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2016, 03:04 AM
DanielFD DanielFD is offline
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If it ran fine for 2 weeks then it really was your camshaft sensor. These are sensitive parts. What make did you buy it from? On my Mercedes days a Bosch camshaft sensor would last a couple months and an original MB one would last 3+ years. difference in price is 40$ Bosch and 180$ MB.
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  #11  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:10 AM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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DanielFD,

I got them from autohouseAZ, OEM sensors made by Siemens.
And it's not like the problem was really obvious before, it was intermittent before as well.

One thing I did this time that was different is that I just moved the car few feet down the driveway. Started, rolled down a 10 feet or so, then shut it off right away. And then 10 minutes later it wouldn't start. Then half hour later it was ok.

Another person I was talking to said that he had an M3 a while back that would do the same thing if you started and then shut it down almost immediately. Supposedly fuel wouldn't burn up completely if you did it that quickly and then when you tried restarting, there were still fuel vapors in the combustion chamber and not enough air, hence it wouldn't ignite/start. Supposedly a "known" issue with some older BMWs. I don't know, first time I hear about it...
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2008 X5 4.8 - sport package, 20" rims
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2006 X5 3.0 (retired) - sport package
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2016, 04:54 PM
AlexatosJR AlexatosJR is offline
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Dang I am having the same issues as you brother, I will also start with the sensor and hope that does it for me. I have to agree that the hot days seem to affect this issue somehow and I was also thinking the fuel being low was a cause.

If you don't mind can you post the part number for the sensor?

And how difficult was to change it?

Thanks in advanced

Quote:
Originally Posted by boriska00 View Post
DanielFD,

I got them from autohouseAZ, OEM sensors made by Siemens.
And it's not like the problem was really obvious before, it was intermittent before as well.

One thing I did this time that was different is that I just moved the car few feet down the driveway. Started, rolled down a 10 feet or so, then shut it off right away. And then 10 minutes later it wouldn't start. Then half hour later it was ok.

Another person I was talking to said that he had an M3 a while back that would do the same thing if you started and then shut it down almost immediately. Supposedly fuel wouldn't burn up completely if you did it that quickly and then when you tried restarting, there were still fuel vapors in the combustion chamber and not enough air, hence it wouldn't ignite/start. Supposedly a "known" issue with some older BMWs. I don't know, first time I hear about it...
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  #13  
Old 07-25-2016, 02:55 PM
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boriska00 boriska00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexatosJR View Post
Dang I am having the same issues as you brother, I will also start with the sensor and hope that does it for me. I have to agree that the hot days seem to affect this issue somehow and I was also thinking the fuel being low was a cause.

If you don't mind can you post the part number for the sensor?

And how difficult was to change it?

Thanks in advanced
Here is a part# from AutohausAZ: Sensor (S119445001Z), O-ring (12141748398)
The job isn't difficult. Lower sensor on the passenger side of the engine is a bit tight to get to, but otherwise it's not a big deal. Take off all of the cabin filter housings to make space. Also, it helps if you take the cover off of the ECM box (passenger side). This way you can move the main wiring harness out of the way easier.

Now having said all that, I think I may have had two separate issues. When I got the codes and rough idle, almost stalling - that was real. Seems like replacing sensors fixed that.

The no-start/no-crank issue is still there. No codes stored and no other symptoms.
The indy shop I go to (I trust these guys) said they think it's a starter, but.......
With it being so rare and intermittent, they don't want to guess, because it's a big job to replace this on this car.

What I noticed is that when it happens if I push the start button quickly several times, it barely cranks first, then starts. It's almost like simulating holding the key in start position on the old cars.

The more I think about how the starter motor is constructed (or any other electrical motor), it makes sense that it would be worse at hot temps. The car is 10 years old and has over 100K miles, so it could be getting there.

Hope this helps!

If you get anywhere with your issue, let me know please.
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