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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 07-25-2015, 02:58 PM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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Mein Auto: 2008 BMW 535xi - MPackage
2008 535xi - Serpentine Belt went - Engine Problems

Hello Everyone!

I am the owner of a 2008 535xi. I had my belt go 2 weeks ago driving my daughter home from a camp. I lost my A/C, Charging, and Power Steering. Kept driving it as it wasn't giving me any trouble and I didn't want to be stranded by the side of the road.

Anyway, I drove it RIGHT to my mechanic and they replaced the belt and said there was a lot of crap to clear out of the components. I told them to check to make sure nothing got by the crankshaft seal but who knows if they did that. They just told me they took it for a drive and it was working fine.

Anyway, My wife has been driving it since then but the Low Engine Oil light came on last night and message came up saying Engine Malfunction - Half power.

Also.. it has this weird tick or rattle now. I also opened up the oil cap and took a look in and it seems like there is some black sludge in there and a few specks of black. I don't remember seeing that before when I have done oil changes or looked in.

I did take the Oil filter out and checked that but didn't seen any particles in that. It looked clean.

I'm kind of freaking out a bit. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 07-25-2015, 05:53 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartofDavid View Post
Hello Everyone!

I am the owner of a 2008 535xi. I had my belt go 2 weeks ago driving my daughter home from a camp. I lost my A/C, Charging, and Power Steering. Kept driving it as it wasn't giving me any trouble and I didn't want to be stranded by the side of the road.

Anyway, I drove it RIGHT to my mechanic and they replaced the belt and said there was a lot of crap to clear out of the components. I told them to check to make sure nothing got by the crankshaft seal but who knows if they did that. They just told me they took it for a drive and it was working fine.

Anyway, My wife has been driving it since then but the Low Engine Oil light came on last night and message came up saying Engine Malfunction - Half power.

Also.. it has this weird tick or rattle now. I also opened up the oil cap and took a look in and it seems like there is some black sludge in there and a few specks of black. I don't remember seeing that before when I have done oil changes or looked in.

I did take the Oil filter out and checked that but didn't seen any particles in that. It looked clean.

I'm kind of freaking out a bit. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Oil is critical in a BMW engine and a larger quantity of circulation goes on compared to other engines. It also interacts with the VANOS system.

1. If they didn't check the main seal AND drain the oil through a screen to inspect it they screwed up, bad.

2. Tow the car to a decent mechanic and have them do that. Drop the pan and inspect the oil pump intake for crap from the belt. The may need to pull the valve cover and clean out anything that's landed up there. Inspect the oil pump for damage. You may need a new one; or it's only partially clogged.

3. If you're lucky it's just plastic from the belt in the oil. It might be minimal damage.

4. If you're less lucky that's metal from the belt scattered around the oil system, and those pieces plus whatever else got broken is circulating.

5. If you really unlucky, you've clogged oil passages or the oil pump and the engine is mechanically damaged.

In any case, they should have carefully inspected the oil system for belt parts that passed the main seal. If they didn't you may have anything from minor damage to a failed engine.

Attached is an N52 document that explains the oil system after page 30 or so. It's not that different from your N54.

Good luck.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf N52 Engine.pdf (4.86 MB, 21 views)
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Last edited by banglenot; 07-25-2015 at 05:55 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-25-2015, 07:40 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Oil is critical in a BMW engine and a larger quantity of circulation goes on compared to other engines. It also interacts with the VANOS system.

1. If they didn't check the main seal AND drain the oil through a screen to inspect it they screwed up, bad.

2. Tow the car to a decent mechanic and have them do that. Drop the pan and inspect the oil pump intake for crap from the belt. The may need to pull the valve cover and clean out anything that's landed up there. Inspect the oil pump for damage. You may need a new one; or it's only partially clogged.

3. If you're lucky it's just plastic from the belt in the oil. It might be minimal damage.

4. If you're less lucky that's metal from the belt scattered around the oil system, and those pieces plus whatever else got broken is circulating.

5. If you really unlucky, you've clogged oil passages or the oil pump and the engine is mechanically damaged.

In any case, they should have carefully inspected the oil system for belt parts that passed the main seal. If they didn't you may have anything from minor damage to a failed engine.

Attached is an N52 document that explains the oil system after page 30 or so. It's not that different from your N54.

Good luck.
Some days you are real cheery aren't you? I actually went to another CCA event at another dealership and they were happy to take care of the little seal beginning to weep under the einge cover. Actually, I like this dealership. They let me see under the car on the lift, and ask questions. Actually the mechanic really did engage in it, and he went step by step for gotchas, and was careful to warn me about the tensioner.

So I asked him about when that tends to go and when it ight fit into the maintenance schedule, and he said doing it about 80k, or 2 oil changes from now assuming I do them at 7500, would be a good way. But to watch for it creeping over the edge at all.

It really is sad that I see this coming up so often.
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2015, 07:50 AM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Originally Posted by Caesonia View Post
Some days you are real cheery aren't you? I actually went to another CCA event at another dealership and they were happy to take care of the little seal beginning to weep under the einge cover. Actually, I like this dealership. They let me see under the car on the lift, and ask questions. Actually the mechanic really did engage in it, and he went step by step for gotchas, and was careful to warn me about the tensioner.

So I asked him about when that tends to go and when it ight fit into the maintenance schedule, and he said doing it about 80k, or 2 oil changes from now assuming I do them at 7500, would be a good way. But to watch for it creeping over the edge at all.

It really is sad that I see this coming up so often.
Heh. Lousy news, but what can you do? This one gets my attention because it's so weird and does so much damage. The last thing I'd reasonably expect is a broken serpentine destroying an engine that has an electric coolant pump and an oil pump chain-driven off the crankshaft. That is does it by forcing past the main seal is doubly weird. Non-BMW mechanics don't expect that to every happen, so why check the condition of the oil?

You make a good point for thought, as well. I assumed this only happened when the belt actually broke. But you note that it might be caused by tensioner failure and a whole belt might get torn up on the main crankshaft pulley. Dunno if this is the way it happens, but I'll update the next "so you just bought an e60".

(Sounds like a decent dealership. Good news.)
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Last edited by banglenot; 07-26-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2015, 09:41 AM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Heh. Lousy news, but what can you do? This one gets my attention because it's so weird and does so much damage. The last thing I'd reasonably expect is a broken serpentine destroying an engine that has an electric coolant pump and an oil pump chain-driven off the crankshaft. That is does it by forcing past the main seal is doubly weird. Non-BMW mechanics don't expect that to every happen, so why check the condition of the oil?

You make a good point for thought, as well. I assumed this only happened when the belt actually broke. But you note that it might be caused by tensioner failure and a whole belt might get torn up on the main crankshaft pulley. Dunno if this is the way it happens, but I'll update the next "so you just bought an e60".

(Sounds like a decent dealership. Good news.)
It does seem like a kick in the teeth that you can still destroy your engine from a broken drive belt given that timing belts are no longer the norm. But I was always careful about replacing the tensioner and from what I am seeing that is definitely one of the main contributors. The tech said he had only dealt with one getting sucked in but he sees the belt begin to creep off the edge and warns them.

He also was careful to say - keep an eye on these things because I know you pop the hood. look for this symptom or that but nothing needs fixing right now. But he also said if it was under warranty to definitely use it for the current weep and pursue the transmission issue - looks like a torque converter problem. He said he like warranty work because people will have the work done, but when it's not they are more distrusting...

The dealership is part of a group of three which includes my local one. The one I just went to faces more competition and recognizes they need to start competing if they want any long term service business - and they do. They will currently work on 2008 and earlier cars for 89$ hour. Honestly, if I had bought an 08 I would take it to them for a lot of things I wouldn't at that price. I think this dealership realizes that when I am there I want to tak about my car and see what is happening. I want to discuss all the things that might be coming up, and point them out like the mechanic did. tell me about an experience you had on your car and why you did what you did. It builds trust and I am far more likely to spend money I wouldn't otherwise, and I won't worry you to death in the waiting room. Maybe that makes me too needy for the local one. The SAs make their money through the service they sell and there are so many rich people in my area who probably don't care. i will always care no matter how much money I have because I belief in a fair deal, but I also am very careful because of something failing on a car when I ws 17 and leaving me upside down in a small river bed at 11PM on a rainy night. Never again.

I think one of the most important things for car longevity and reliability is to look at some of the things not mentioned, and budget for them as part of your maintenance plan. If you know water pumps normally bite it at 80k, plan on it.

I will say that this guy driving the car to not get stranded was not smart. OK, if you are on a super busy highway, or it's snowing, but that's what towing insurance is for.
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2015, 09:59 AM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesonia View Post
It does seem like a kick in the teeth that you can still destroy your engine from a broken drive belt given that timing belts are no longer the norm.

snip

I will say that this guy driving the car to not get stranded was not smart. OK, if you are on a super busy highway, or it's snowing, but that's what towing insurance is for.
Agreed, but he was in Newfoundland, so who knows? Also, who the heck can expect that a broken belt can destroy an engine?

Everything seems fine -- no overheat (electric fan and coolant pump), and it seems like you could go as long as the battery holds out (no alternator). And who needs AC in Newfoundland? So, you drive it home.

I sympathize -- until I read about the damn belt problem, I would have likely done the same, and thought myself clever for knowing enough about BMW's to do it.
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2015, 11:16 AM
Dr.Phil123 Dr.Phil123 is offline
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How many miles are on the car?
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  #8  
Old 07-27-2015, 01:34 PM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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OK, my shop called on the BMW.

So, they said they started it up this morning and it was running perfect. No noise and running fine. I asked them if they pulled the oil cap open and saw anything abnormal in there and he said he didn't know if they did that. Argh.. the place I go to is generally really good and I've used them for years. Just seems they won't listen to me.

I told them I still want them to drain the oil in the morning and screen it. He did get a code for the alternator (which perhaps could have been from before when the belt went off and didn't get cleared?) and then he said he also had a code for: 3100 boost-pressure control, deactivation EXPLANATION: This code is triggered any time you experience a reduced boost mode. FIX: This code itself is meaningless and serves only to let you know a 'limp mode' took place.

So not sure what's going on there. Guess we'll see what they find in the oil in the morning and go from there.

Any suggestions for me to tell them?

Tony



Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Oil is critical in a BMW engine and a larger quantity of circulation goes on compared to other engines. It also interacts with the VANOS system.

1. If they didn't check the main seal AND drain the oil through a screen to inspect it they screwed up, bad.

2. Tow the car to a decent mechanic and have them do that. Drop the pan and inspect the oil pump intake for crap from the belt. The may need to pull the valve cover and clean out anything that's landed up there. Inspect the oil pump for damage. You may need a new one; or it's only partially clogged.

3. If you're lucky it's just plastic from the belt in the oil. It might be minimal damage.

4. If you're less lucky that's metal from the belt scattered around the oil system, and those pieces plus whatever else got broken is circulating.

5. If you really unlucky, you've clogged oil passages or the oil pump and the engine is mechanically damaged.

In any case, they should have carefully inspected the oil system for belt parts that passed the main seal. If they didn't you may have anything from minor damage to a failed engine.

Attached is an N52 document that explains the oil system after page 30 or so. It's not that different from your N54.

Good luck.
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  #9  
Old 07-27-2015, 01:43 PM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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I have 134,000 kms 83,000 miles approx.

Love the car.. it's been good up until now! Well.. other than I put new tie rods in. And they just told me it needs front pads and sensor to pass inspection.

I'm just praying that perhaps all this is not related to the belt... Maybe I'll get lucky but I have this weird feeling something is up.

Tony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Phil123 View Post
How many miles are on the car?
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2015, 06:57 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartofDavid View Post
I have 134,000 kms 83,000 miles approx.

Love the car.. it's been good up until now! Well.. other than I put new tie rods in. And they just told me it needs front pads and sensor to pass inspection.

I'm just praying that perhaps all this is not related to the belt... Maybe I'll get lucky but I have this weird feeling something is up.

Tony
If they find anything in the oil they need to drop the pan and inspect the oil filter intake for blockage. Also check the bearing seal for damage.


Good luck.
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Last edited by banglenot; 07-27-2015 at 07:27 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-28-2015, 11:38 AM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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Ok... so they drained the oil and screened it and found nothing at all in the oil. It was clean... and they took it for a drive and said it's working perfect.

I guess maybe there is nothing wrong? Perhaps the Engine Malfunction issue is related to something else?

Guess I'll just go with it and see what happens!
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:15 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is offline
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Originally Posted by HeartofDavid View Post
Ok... so they drained the oil and screened it and found nothing at all in the oil. It was clean... and they took it for a drive and said it's working perfect.

I guess maybe there is nothing wrong? Perhaps the Engine Malfunction issue is related to something else?

Guess I'll just go with it and see what happens!
Well, you probably really did see something, and if you are lucky, it was something very small. I would make sure the crank seal isn't leaking, and just go ahead and change the oil filter. Something got sucked in, maybe next to the oil sensor, or on a main port, and caused a drop in oil pressure, and might have gotten pushed on through, and picked up by the oil filter. The oil filter itself could have been temporarily clogged, and then the sludge broke up and some got through.

I had something similar to this happen with a car that I had and had been sitting a long time, and a couple of other bad bits. Sythetic cleaned it out, and globs of oil were coming into the filter and clogging it up. Finally it go through it.

So..an oil filter is cheap. I would just replace it, and see what is in the old one.
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:58 PM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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Yeah, perhaps... although I took the filter off and it was clean. I just had the oil changed about 2000 kms ago so. I'm not sure how oil circulates so I just figured oil wasn't getting to the filter somehow (plugged oil pump or something).

It DID have a tick after this all happened and so it's weird how it just disappeared all of a sudden.

I'm getting the oil cooler housing gasket (both sides) leaks fixed as I think that's how the belt broke down. It's fixed under my Lubrico warranty so may as well get it done.

I love the car so I just hope it will stay reliable for me!

Tony
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Old 07-28-2015, 03:20 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartofDavid View Post
Yeah, perhaps... although I took the filter off and it was clean. I just had the oil changed about 2000 kms ago so. I'm not sure how oil circulates so I just figured oil wasn't getting to the filter somehow (plugged oil pump or something).

It DID have a tick after this all happened and so it's weird how it just disappeared all of a sudden.

I'm getting the oil cooler housing gasket (both sides) leaks fixed as I think that's how the belt broke down. It's fixed under my Lubrico warranty so may as well get it done.

I love the car so I just hope it will stay reliable for me!

Tony
You might have gotten lucky. I see they didn't drop the pan to inspect, so there's that. If I recall, dropping the pan on an XI is a bitch, so...

But if you see the oil pressure light come on, even for an instant, stop immediately, tow it and pull the pan to check the oil pump intake.

Hope the luck keeps up.
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2015, 03:23 PM
HeartofDavid HeartofDavid is offline
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Yeah... i kind of wanted them to but.. no oil pressure light has come on yet at all. Just that Engine Malfunction Service notice and reduced power mode. Maybe it's all unrelated. Just seemed weird to me.

I still have an uneasy feeling but I guess if they are saying it's good... well.. if something goes wrong further, I'll blame it on the shop as they are saying it's fine.

Tony
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Old 07-28-2015, 04:23 PM
banglenot banglenot is offline
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Originally Posted by HeartofDavid View Post
Yeah... i kind of wanted them to but.. no oil pressure light has come on yet at all. Just that Engine Malfunction Service notice and reduced power mode. Maybe it's all unrelated. Just seemed weird to me.

I still have an uneasy feeling but I guess if they are saying it's good... well.. if something goes wrong further, I'll blame it on the shop as they are saying it's fine.

Tony
Yep. They had their opportunity and gave you assurances. So, if the pump fails or clogs, it's theirs to fix.
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