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7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
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  #176  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:51 PM
m50b25 m50b25 is offline
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white smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccabema View Post
m50b25, you know the car does not smoke all the time right? Only when stopped, engine up to temperature and when you pull off.

No smoke the rest of the time-only when stopped at lights for example. It accumulates whilst idling and blows it clear when you pull off.
Of course i know! Just because whne your engine is running there is not that much oil penetrates inside combustion camera. just because you have valvetronic you don't have that much smoke when you are not idling )

Stupid test: how do your sprak plugs look like?? nice and clean??? doubt it!


here is the adfvice: spend 2-3k and do it or sell the car, this is what my frind did
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  #177  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:52 PM
mccabema mccabema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4point4fanatic View Post
The answer to your smoking is CCV system, and here is the clincher. It is not the hoses or the valves themselves but the valve covers. The ports within are clogged and causing the pressure within the block to be way out of spec. I believe if you have the engine's ccv vacuum measured you will find on cold start up the pressure way out of spec. and as the engine warms it will start to drop to norm but it still will be out of spec. Take the car to any indy and they should have the tool to measure crankcase ventilation pressure. It will take two seconds so they should not charge.

As for the valve covers, you can either clean them very well and take a rifle cleaning kit to them or buy new ones.
To be totally blatant, can you point out numbers of parts you mention here:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...58&hg=11&fg=15
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  #178  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
4point4fanatic 4point4fanatic is offline
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By the way great website to go to for diagrams is http://www.penskeparts.com
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  #179  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:59 PM
4point4fanatic 4point4fanatic is offline
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Valve seals and guides are not the answer here. On a N62 you can pull part 1 at the bottom and see plenty of oil. Matter of fact pull them at the valve covers and see oil in the lines there to. The answer lies in the ccv system pressure being incorrect. http://www.penskeparts.com/DiagramsM...png?v=06222010
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  #180  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:59 PM
m50b25 m50b25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4point4fanatic View Post
The answer to your smoking is CCV system, and here is the clincher. It is not the hoses or the valves themselves but the valve covers. The ports within are clogged and causing the pressure within the block to be way out of spec. I believe if you have the engine's ccv vacuum measured you will find on cold start up the pressure way out of spec. and as the engine warms it will start to drop to norm but it still will be out of spec. Take the car to any indy and they should have the tool to measure crankcase ventilation pressure. It will take two seconds so they should not charge.

As for the valve covers, you can either clean them very well and take a rifle cleaning kit to them or buy new ones.
ok, answer how the oil gets inside the camera?

thrugh intake or CCV? if valves seals are ok, it can getr there only by CCV system , but those valves are designed to separate oil form the air

Also if its true, seafoming must help here, i don't see the point of opening valve covers then?

Last edited by m50b25; 08-09-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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  #181  
Old 08-09-2010, 05:09 PM
mccabema mccabema is offline
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I didn't waste any money. We replaced the gasket on one side as it was weeping oil.

The whole point of this discussion is to prevent people wasting money.

Valve stems have been reported as being the problem, as have other less trivial possibilities.

Only by discussing this (as we are) may we be able to make an informed decision that's will hopefully resolve the issue as financially economically as is possible.

Thanks for your input. Your posts are as valid as the next, but please understand that this issue warrants further discussion.
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  #182  
Old 08-09-2010, 05:38 PM
m50b25 m50b25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccabema View Post
I didn't waste any money. We replaced the gasket on one side as it was weeping oil.

The whole point of this discussion is to prevent people wasting money.

Valve stems have been reported as being the problem, as have other less trivial possibilities.

Only by discussing this (as we are) may we be able to make an informed decision that's will hopefully resolve the issue as financially economically as is possible.

Thanks for your input. Your posts are as valid as the next, but please understand that this issue warrants further discussion.
Ok, if you disconnect those hoses it should stop smoking, right? Try it then who knows ...
If you are talking about ccv ports basically ccv valve port is clogged and that's why high vacuum pressure, it makes sense. So try to disconnect those hoses and see.... But where is the oil coming from if there is no ccv ? Can anyone make a pic of valve cover inner side?
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  #183  
Old 08-09-2010, 05:41 PM
m50b25 m50b25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccabema View Post
I didn't waste any money. We replaced the gasket on one side as it was weeping oil.

The whole point of this discussion is to prevent people wasting money.

Valve stems have been reported as being the problem, as have other less trivial possibilities.

Only by discussing this (as we are) may we be able to make an informed decision that's will hopefully resolve the issue as financially economically as is possible.

Thanks for your input. Your posts are as valid as the next, but please understand that this issue warrants further discussion.
How was your cover?? Clogged and dirty? You cleaned everything right?
If you open the oil cap while engine running, will it suck the oil cap?
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  #184  
Old 08-10-2010, 01:04 AM
mccabema mccabema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m50b25 View Post
How was your cover?? Clogged and dirty? You cleaned everything right?
If you open the oil cap while engine running, will it suck the oil cap?
It was dirty yes. We only did one side. I cleaned everything.

If I open the oil cap with the engine running, there is back pressure yes.
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  #185  
Old 08-10-2010, 01:06 AM
mccabema mccabema is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m50b25 View Post
Ok, if you disconnect those hoses it should stop smoking, right? Try it then who knows ...
If you are talking about ccv ports basically ccv valve port is clogged and that's why high vacuum pressure, it makes sense. So try to disconnect those hoses and see.... But where is the oil coming from if there is no ccv ? Can anyone make a pic of valve cover inner side?
I replaced my CCV hoses as they were brittle and ready to break. The ccv ports were not blocked.
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  #186  
Old 08-10-2010, 05:27 AM
4point4fanatic 4point4fanatic is offline
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Just another idea. I know that the cobra svt's have this similar problem of burning oil at idle and then clearing out after accel. They have come up with a solution that i think would work if the oil is coming from our CCVs. In automotive shops, mechanics use water separators for the compressed air. You can buy these at any hardware store. They have started putting them in line with the PCVs and they just dump the oil out every oil change. Its not much maybe a quarter cup but enough to cause some smoke. Just an idea guys. If you all want I can try to find the DIY from the SVT guys. It is worth a try instead of payin' big bucks on valve stem replacement.
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  #187  
Old 08-10-2010, 06:08 AM
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wilson009 wilson009 is offline
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just for clarification purposes "the term mushroom valve" is misleading and could confuse readers.

These are not valves at all. They are caps and Bushings used for securing the cover to the head. When the Bushings become hard they can weep oil when the motor is running.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mccabema View Post
The mushroom valves I refer to are #10 and #11 here:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...58&hg=11&fg=15


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My DIY's - New alternator, battery, CCVs, idler/tensioner pulleys belts, NGK Iridium spark plugs, , sway bar bushings, Front rear brakes, Valve Block, Head Gasket, Exhaust Gasket, Upper and lower Timing Gaskets, Valve Covers, exhaust valves, Timing Chain slide rails, Fuel Injector o-rings, pulled radiator, Intake Manifold Gaskets, water pump, Coolant Pipe/weep hole, oil pan gasket, vacuum pump, fan shroud, Vanos solenoid o-rings, and timed it with a timing kit.
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  #188  
Old 08-10-2010, 07:26 AM
phix90 phix90 is offline
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I have to ask as someone who was about to purchase a 02 745 i for $12,700 with 100k miles, What did you pay for yours??? It seems like you inherited nothing, but issues which is very unfortunate. Really bothersome to me since I'm sure we both worked hard for our money too.

I was actually talked out of buying 745i by the good people on this forum. They didn't tell me not to buy, but it was pretty clear this car is problematic.

GL
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  #189  
Old 08-11-2010, 01:22 PM
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E92-Lighting E92-Lighting is offline
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sorry to hear
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  #190  
Old 09-14-2010, 11:31 AM
elk5432 elk5432 is offline
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I've been lurking on this board for a while looking for people who has experienced similar problems. Figured it would be good to share my experience with trying to solve these
issues in case anyone finds it helpful.

First Job -

Issues:
This solved my occasional rough starting (RPM would bounce in the low range occasionally when idle, like it was struggling, then
it would just go away after I hit the gas). It even sometimes just turned off at a stop if the rpm dipped low enough on the studder.
It stopped the car from occasionally bogging down on take off (the car would just studder when I hit the gas from a stop, then take off).
It stopped the car from throwing up the "drive moderately" error.
It stopped the car from occasionally starting to emit a lout whistle noise, usually after starting the car up after a short trip. The noise would go away after I turned the car off and back on.

My car had always burned a bit of oil but before this job I didn't think it was abnormal.


Parts:
11127547058 Repair kit, pressure regulating valve
11617547185 Vent Pipe
11617547186 Vent Pipe



Second Job (about 5 months later) -

Issues:
I noticed my car was burning through about 1 quart of oil every 600 miles. I had no other problems except I thought there was a chance
my car was pushing out a white cloud of smoke occasionally (I was never 100% it was coming from my car until I managed to see it). It
was time for an oil change so I brought my car in to the mechanic and mentioned that it was burning a lot of oil. He had one of his other
techs do the oil change and ran the codes and came back with nothing. Nor could the get it to belch smoke. I took it home disappointed
still concerned there was something wrong.

Four days later, the "check emmission" fault came on my idrive screen (this has never happened in the past). I brought it back and we ran
the codes while the car was idling. At some point we noticed some white smoke coming across the car. So at least now we knew for sure
where the oil was magically disappearing to.

Parts:
11727553101 x 2 Valve
11727506214 x 2 Valve Gasket
11727508268 x 1 Suction pipe hoses
11727556959 x 1 PRESSURE HOSE ASSY
11617521181 x 2 Gasket Steel
11727508270 x 1 PRESSURE HOSE ASSY


While all the parts above were changed, the only part that showed a problem was one of the valves P/N: 11727553101.
Car started up, the "check emmision" light is cleared (Error code was something about 'Slot 2 Bank 2, SEcondary Air Insufficient' so I'm guessing the bad
valve made it come up). 'Valve' in this case is #8 in this picture:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...11&fg=50&hl=10

End result, problem still not fixed! Car still spits out white smoke.


Third Fix (few days later)

Engine Oil Flush (BG product) as well as a fuel system flush to clean out all the carb build up (hopefully). Added Lucas Engine Oil Stop
leak to see what happens. This was done just to deal with the problem of the smoke and oil burning. Not really something I consider a 'fix'.

Have been driving the car for three weeks now. Haven't noticed any white smoke as of yet. Still not sure what I'm going to end up doing in the long run.

I've been told it could be the valve seals or piston rings. Both jobs around $2500 each (cheaper if done at the same time), give or take (this is after shopping around).

Eugene

Last edited by elk5432; 09-14-2010 at 11:33 AM. Reason: more info
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  #191  
Old 09-17-2010, 04:05 AM
cbstm cbstm is offline
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Re:Long Read

Hi Guys, I have a BMW 735 02 Plate with approx 120K miles. I too have the white/blue smoke problem whilst idle.

After reading through this thread virtually over four 4 long hours, and with my sympathy go out to alot you guys out there, who like me have spent alot of cash. And it looks like no real solution has been found.

My car does consume about 1 litres of oil approx for every 1K miles, and according to the stealers its nothing to worry about, as its normal.

My questions, if its stem cells(may be its wrong name), that allow the oil to seap in, does this mean the engine will just eventually die on me or is it a case of nuisance smoke. Also there was a chap who unplugged vanos sensor and his problem of smoke has gone, is this really a solution, even with slight power reduction it might be an option.Does this have other implications on the engine interms of long term damage.


I always had a BMW 5 series, just moved to the 7 and boy I have had a world of problems, my thoughts at the moment for the car is that "you aint gonna get a dollar out of me" and then I get the blues, "I love the car", it drives like a beauty, has more than enough power, like others I have been spending money like water, be it on amps, gear box sump change, electrical faults,etc.

Please do get back to me, and may be there is a solution out there.
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  #192  
Old 09-17-2010, 07:27 AM
amg142 amg142 is offline
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Hey guys, this is probably why these cars smoke and burn oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertechbmw View Post
i have seen a number of e65/66 with very expensive engne issues. Such as the dreaded coolant pipe leaking, valve guides need replaced ( causing engine to burn a lot of oil!! Smoking excessively), secondary air system clogs up the cylinder heads and need heads removed and cleaned or even replaced. Lately, we have been seeing a lot of the valve guide issue, with engines right around 100k.
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  #193  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:16 PM
chevy28360 chevy28360 is offline
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Hello thread. I'm in the same boat as most of you. I have a 2004 745i. I have no codes, and no driving issues. However, once engine temp is up and I am at idle, smoke will begin to emit from the tailpipe. I took it to our local dealer and nearly $7000.00 later, here I am with the same problem. They replaced the vent valves, cleaned the ports in the heads, etc. to no avail. I have a used car lot with a good mechanic, but since the 4.4l is no walk in the park to diagnose and work on, I figured taking it to the dealer would save me some time. I knew before hand that the techs in Ford, Chev, Dodge dealers new less about repair work than I do, but our local BMW dealer was 'supposed' to be really good. But I digress, that horse has been beaten enough.

After digging for hours on the net, including this site, I've come to the conclusion that m50b25 is right. I'm going to have my mechanic tear down the engine, replace the valve stem seals, and see if that fixes it. It is DEFINITELY not a diy, and requires at the least, a good mechanic. Not to mention the correct tools for removing the cams. Anyways, I expect it to be done by the end of the week, and I'll report back if this fixes the issue.
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  #194  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:30 PM
klob25 klob25 is offline
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I have found this product works without sludging up your engine.

ENGINE OIL RESEALER from liqui-moly
"Liqui-Moly Engine Oil Resealer rejuvenates dried-out oil seals, o-rings and valve-stem seals which significantly reduces oil consumption and stops oil leaks. This product also compensates for viscosity loss, dampens engine noise and prevents blue exhaust smoke"

Do it after an oil change.

I did a completed service on the car, oil, filter, air filter, sparkplug, but a can of ENGINE OIL RESEALER from liqui-moly.

I am not a product rep for this stuff but it did work for me but please do be careful with adding stuff to your engine. I know if you use amsoil oil and other addictives it can cause both of them to react and sludge.

It turns out that Amsoil actually have the stance that they recommend engine oil additives are NOT to be used with their products. This will become relevant later on this page, and in the additives section. They have a pretty good FAQ on the Amsoil website: Amsoil FAQ

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
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  #195  
Old 10-11-2010, 06:13 AM
chevy28360 chevy28360 is offline
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Just wanted to update on the repairs. We've gotten bogged down with some costumer cars, and therefore haven't had a chance to finish the valve stem install. This repair is a BEAST. Besides all the hardware that must be removed in order to get to the valves, the valves themselves are extremley difficult to remove. We have ordered a tool from SnapOn that should help. I am hoping to have everything together by the end of the week. Wish me luck!
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  #196  
Old 10-21-2010, 02:36 PM
elk5432 elk5432 is offline
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are valve guides an issue?

Any luck with the valve stem seal fix?

I've been working with a new BMW shop here that I looked up while trying to get quotes on getting the valve stem seals done. They gave me some news that is worrisome and lines up with what "mastertechbmw" said: the valve guides.

Here are my symptoms (seems similar to yours):
1) The car still burns a lot of oil, about 1 quart every 800 miles. I've seen people post between 400-1000 miles a quart.
2) White smoke comes out if it sits idle for a bit and you hit the accelerator.

I have replaced nearly every part that could lead to these symptoms and have come up short (if you see my post earlier in the thread, you will see all the work done, and I have since tried replacing the valve covers as well).
Basically, what Iíve gathered is that you try the easy stuff first (CCV, other leaks, valve covers) and if the issues persist it can a few much more expensive things. Iím not sure why, but nobody Iíve talked to in the shops here has done valve stem seals, only seen it on this board.

In my case, this was the first time the mechanic has seen it in his shop, but he called some service managers and indy shop owners he knew nationally (not local) and it turns out that this is becoming (at least recently) a common issue. One guy told him he has already done two cars and another dealership had multiple 745 s in at the moment with the exact same issue.

As 'mastertechbmw' said, this is quite an expensive issue as well. Apparently more than a few internal cases between dealerships and BMW of North America have been opened to try to resolve this issue, and BMW is authorizing the heads to be replaced (valve guides aren't sold individually). Parts alone after including all items are in the $4000 per head range!

Iím curious if anyone has had this work done already? Any chance BMW will setup a recall for this?
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  #197  
Old 11-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Andyjag69 Andyjag69 is offline
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a little information

Greetings

I have read through this thread with interest as I currently have a 2004 745LI in my shop which is displaying the same idle/acceleration oil burning symptoms.
Having replaced the CCV's to no effect I decided to unplug the hose from the cylinder head covers, plug the hoses going to the intake manifold and see if this had any effect on the symptoms.
when holding the engine at around 2000 RPM the exhaust is almost clear but there is a slight blue haze signifying oil being burned.
When I allow the engine to Idle for around 5 minutes then floor the accelerator a cloud of white smoke issues from the exhaust.
Having isolated the crank case ventilation system, coupled with the fact that compressions are perfect and there is only a very slight haze of smoke when holding the engine at 2K I have come to the conclusion that the only possible cause is the Exhaust valve guide seals ( or worn valve guides ).
There is no way for oil to transfer from the intake valve stems into the intake manifold as someone suggested because all the air flow through the induction system is in the opposite direction, also if the oil was passing through the combustion chamber in an engine running on all cylinders the smoke from the exhaust would be pure blue ( not white) therefore the oil can only be being drawn down the exhaust valve guides and arriving after the combustion phase where it is heated but not burned.

I hope this helps you to make decisions as to how to proceed with your problems.
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  #198  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:36 PM
elk5432 elk5432 is offline
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Just wanted to follow up after reading Andyjag69's post. His conclusion is very similar to the conclusion my shop made with my 56k mile 2003 745.

Are you by chance on the east coast (or is the car from there)? The only people I've heard having these problems are people with east coast cars.

I had no idea the reason you get white smoke is because it's heated oil as opposed to burned oil (which comes out blue). Learned something new!

Just incase anyone is looking at how much it costs. I was given an estimate for fixing the valve guides:

$3000 in labor
$600 in parts
$650 to machine the heads (fix em).

The labor is steep but it's a very reputable BMW shop (non dealer) who I trust. I'm not sure I want the average wrench monkey digging that deep into my car and possibly making mistakes putting it back together that would force me to open everything up again.

Who else is having this issue? Please post if you are just reading this so at least there is a thread that can show that this problem (with very specific symptoms) is relatively wide spread.

Eugene
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  #199  
Old 11-19-2010, 04:45 PM
Andyjag69 Andyjag69 is offline
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possible repair plan

Thank you for your input Elk5432

I am indeed on the East coast ( sunny Georgia ) but i would like to clarify a couple of points.

Firstly it is unlikely to be the valve guides themselves which are failing, even the archaic jaguar XK engine which had phosphor bronze valve guides could last 150+K miles before the guides had any measurable wear.

Modern engines are manufactured of far more durable alloys of various metals.

The Valve Guide Seals however are basically Rubber which under temperature extremes will eventually sort of Fossilize ( they become hard and kind of crispy, no longer having the properties of rubber to squeeze onto the valve stem) which means they will allow too much oil to be drawn down through the valve guides.

Secondly it is very possible ( although difficult ) to replace valve guide seals without removing the Cylinder heads. ( I have done exactly this task on many models of cars by making my own tools to compress the valve springs, removing the collets and releasing spring tension ) access to the rearmost cylinders on the 745 ( N62/N62TU engine ) may however be really tricky.

Before you sign up for expensive machine work and cylinder head removal I would ask your mechanic if he can replace the seals without removing the heads, this will remove the machining cost and reduce the parts cost also since there is no need for new Cylinder Head Gaskets.
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  #200  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:06 PM
Andyjag69 Andyjag69 is offline
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Oops

Sorry folks , posted that reply before I finished.

It is possible the an engine treatment such as a Lucas oil stabiliser or a seal rejuvinator will buy you some time on this problem, my personal choice would be Slick 50 which coats all the oil supplied parts in an engin with Teflon ( just like the non stick coating on frying pans).The coating is only microns thick but it can reduce the excessive oil flow through worn or dried out ( crusty ) seals.

Also changing oils to a thicker high temperature multigrade may help to reduce the smoke and oil usage, something around a 5W50. Fully synthetic.
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