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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #101  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:56 AM
ard ard is offline
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eh...Nvrmd

Last edited by ard; 10-22-2009 at 06:06 PM.
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  #102  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kestrel View Post
+1 re cetane. I can't seem to find a mention of it in the pdf of the 10 manual. In any event it seems tough to find that in my area, although standard cetane (41 I believe) is readily available

FWIW, here's a link to someone who has posted some info regarding cetane that he obtained from the oil companies:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694
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  #103  
Old 10-24-2009, 07:39 PM
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Any updates?
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  #104  
Old 10-26-2009, 08:28 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Nothing new to report but I'm expecting the engine to arrive sometime this week.
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  #105  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:14 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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New engine has arrived. They've got the old one and new one side-by-side on the shop floor. Heading over today to take a look.
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  #106  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
New engine has arrived. They've got the old one and new one side-by-side on the shop floor. Heading over today to take a look.

Might be a good opportunity to get a few pictures of the Diesel engine from different angles, sans the engine compartment...
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  #107  
Old 10-29-2009, 12:43 PM
d geek d geek is online now
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Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
Might be a good opportunity to get a few pictures of the Diesel engine from different angles, sans the engine compartment...
+++1!!!!
Please take some photos, especially the damage.
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  #108  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:43 PM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Had an opportunity to see the carnage yesterday and speak with the shop manager. His theory at this point is that a bolt failed on one side of the connecting rod cap. A single bolt on one side held the cap in place for a while, but it eventually bent (didn't break). The cap shifted enough to punch a hole into the block and the engine seized. The connecting rod remained intact. It was broken by shop personnel so they could remove the pieces. They haven't yet found pieces of the missing bolt.

The only way to remove the transmission from the old engine is to rotate the crankshaft. In this case, the crankshaft couldn't rotate because the engine was frozen in place. This is why they had to dig a larger hole, break the connecting rod, and remove the offending pieces. They should now be able to remove the transmission components and attach them to the new engine.

More photos to follow later.
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  #109  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:31 PM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Jerry, what about sudden stoppage of the transmission? That couldn't have done it any good at all. Perhaps a new transmission is called for too. Sounds like it must have been a "one off" unless they got a bad batch of bolts somehow.
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  #110  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:50 PM
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I hope things work out, and I'm sure they will.......but why on earth are they letting the new engine just sit on the floor. It had to be shipped on a wooden or metal skid ?
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  #111  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:56 PM
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Route 66 Route 66 is offline
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Thanks for sharing the pics, the first pic with the bent bolt is amazing.
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  #112  
Old 10-30-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
They haven't yet found pieces of the missing bolt.

I wonder if it ever had a bolt... might have been an assembly mistake.
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  #113  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:37 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Many thanks for sharing such good quality pics complete with annotation!

The rod end seems to have taken most of the force/deformation. The diameter of the rod end is much smaller than the cap where they should meet. The cap doesn't look that damaged. But I guess it was pretty much "out of the action" since it was trapped/protected between the flanges of the crank .

There most be some pretty tight clearance between the rotating crank/rod and the block, for a loose rod end to be able to hit the side of the block while its cap is still (at least partially) holding it close to the crank. I'm amazed that the remaining bolt bent so little.

Funf Dreisig

Edit: BTW in my earlier conjectureI assumed that the second rod bolt would have to fail to allow the rod end to hit the block. Maybe all that is really needed it to 'spin out the bearing' to gain a little more clearance. It would be interesting to see the bearings. Or even hear whether they were in place when the tech removed the bent bolt.

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 10-31-2009 at 06:20 AM.
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  #114  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:51 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
I wonder if it ever had a bolt... might have been an assembly mistake.
Hmmm... Interesting conjecture.

Rod bolts don't just completely vanish very easily.
If the bolt failed --- some of the threaded end should still be in the rod even if most of it was ejected through the hole
If it came unscrewed --- it would have had to have been ejected though the hole in the block.
If it was never there --- how did this engine run OK since MAY?


BTW does anyone know off hand the rotational direction of a 35d engine. IOW was the crank rotating upward or downward on the damaged side of the engine?

Funf Dreisig

Edit: RealOEM shows a "bowl reinforcement" that spans the lower part of the engine between the block and the oil pan. So there are two large areas where errant rod bolt bits could hide.

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 10-31-2009 at 06:10 AM.
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  #115  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:03 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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More close-up photos attached.
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  #116  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:11 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Old engine in foreground, new engine behind. Except for the transmission, many components have already been transferred. Crate for new engine in background.
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  #117  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:32 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Originally Posted by UncleJ View Post
Jerry, what about sudden stoppage of the transmission? That couldn't have done it any good at all.
I'll be interested to see how the transmission performs when they transfer it to the new engine. (Cue up woeful grinding metal sounds...)

Wish I knew more about how the pieces fit together. Why can't you remove the transmission from a seized engine? To free the crankshaft, they had to dig a larger hole to get inside, break the rod and remove the debris.
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  #118  
Old 10-31-2009, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
Hmmm... Interesting conjecture... If it was never there --- how did this engine run OK since MAY?

Most engine components are over-designed, so I would imagine that the single bolt might have held that long. I had a Harley once where they apparently forgot to install the circlip that keeps the piston pin in place.

It ran for about 5,000 miles before the piston pin hitting the side of the cylinder finally messed the cylinder wall up so much it was using a quart of oil every 500 miles, fouling plugs, and losing power.

And yeah, it did rattle a bit, but whenever you take a Harley to a Harley dealer and tell them the engine "sounds odd and has a rattle around 2,000 RPM," their stock response is "They all do that."
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  #119  
Old 10-31-2009, 12:09 PM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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But Pen, they really all do! Jerry, I am sure you will be really watching how the transmission performs (after the sudden stoppage) when you get it back on the road again. You may want to take a long test drive with the Mech before taking custody of the car again. Just a thought .
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  #120  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:40 PM
ard ard is offline
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I suspect that the bolt broke very closely to the time the engine noise began, perhaps very faintl, but rapidly progressing. Miles not days. IMHO

As one who has dealt with product failures, I suspect that THAT missing bolt is THE key to the root cause analysis. It should be somewhere in the motor. Surface SEM of those parts. maybe xray micro analysis will tell much. Is it an assembly error? Material fault? Machining fault? Failure to deburr threads, faulty torque value? Lots of possibilities.

Now. just to be paranoid.... What if the root cause analysis shows it was something that COULD affect any of their motors. What do they do? Tell us? Monitor for potential faults and only take action if they crop up more frequently? What if it was one lot of bolts done by one shift on a machine that drifted out of calibration? Who's car are those bolts in?

Thanks for posting Jerry. Definitely good info and very, very surprising the dealer is being so accommodating. I wonder if that may actually change with this thread...

A
Just cruising here at 36,000 feet on gogoinflight...
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  #121  
Old 10-31-2009, 09:10 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
More close-up photos attached.
Thanks again for the extra photos.

It looks like there is quite a bit of material _missing_ from the end/side of the rod. And what is left is quite smooth/worn. This does not look like an single impact where material is deformed. Maybe the knocking sound you heard was the rod hitting/rubbing the block until it finally punched the hole in the block and froze the engine.

FWIW I agree that the transmission is still an issue. Something had to take the strain between a frozen engine and turning wheels until you came to a stop. The transmission is the most likely candidate, since the techs couldn't even remove the transmission while the crankshaft could not turn. AFAIK all of the other drive train components either keep turning or fail. I'd be very reluctant to accept a repair that did not include replacing the transmission.

Funf Dreisig

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 10-31-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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  #122  
Old 10-31-2009, 11:07 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post

FWIW I agree that the transmission is still an issue. Something had to take the strain between a frozen engine and turning wheels until you came to a stop. The transmission is the most likely candidate, since the techs couldn't even remove the transmission while the crankshaft could not turn. AFAIK all of the other drive train components either keep turning or fail. I'd be very reluctant to accept a repair that did not include replacing the transmission.

Funf Dreisig

I'd been thinking about this... but was hesitant to bring it up. I don't know what OP can really do: BMW will just say 'our engineers say it is fine, and there is no sign of damage'. Well DUH. First, they aren;t asking any engineer- just service reps who cannot really justify a gratis replacement.

Certainly they will replace it if, after engine replacement, it is making noises or throwing codes- but what if it seems OK? Problem is that there can be hidden damage inside the tranny that will not manifest itself until after the warranty is up.

At the very least I would demand an extended warranty on the tranny- for as long as you own it, or 100k,... and IN WRITING. Or have them give your the new 7 year 100k Platinum warranty 'for your troubles'. Or the 7/100 powertrain....

The point is there was certainly a major stress to the drivetrain that exceeded the design limits (IMHO)- if they stonewall you, start asking questions in writing.

A
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  #123  
Old 11-01-2009, 04:53 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
....At the very least I would demand an extended warranty on the tranny- for as long as you own it, or 100k,... and IN WRITING. Or have them give your the new 7 year 100k Platinum warranty 'for your troubles'. Or the 7/100 powertrain....

The point is there was certainly a major stress to the drivetrain that exceeded the design limits (IMHO)- if they stonewall you, start asking questions in writing.

A
I agree that an extended written warranty is the most equitable solution. BMW doesn't have to eat a tranny that MAY be OK and the OP doesn't eat one that MAY have been pushed beyond it's design limits. If it has troubles during the OP's ownership BMW repairs/replaces it at their expense. If it doesn't have troubles BMW saves a few bucks.

Funf Dreisig
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  #124  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:36 AM
27outboard 27outboard is offline
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Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
Old engine in foreground, new engine behind. Except for the transmission, many components have already been transferred. Crate for new engine in background.
My background comes from a small family owned machine shop in Wisconsin. My grandfather and uncle were complete gear heads; drove diesel Mercedes all their lives. I have been in and around some of the best German mechanics in the states and their shops. So, what ASTOUNDS me about these photos is the lack of organization, no engine and/or transmission carts, no racks for hanging the front assembly; nothing.

It's simply amazing, to me, that your new and old engine, and for that matter, the reusable transmission, and everything else are laying on the shop floor!

Insist on a new vehicle...your service dept has obviously never been trained properly and I would have serious misgivings about their ability to get this right. I am not trying to flame anything here...it is poor training and technique to see what these photos depict and your dealer's service dept should be completely ashamed. Save them and send them to BMW NA; almost can guarantee that they will be embarrassed.
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  #125  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:20 AM
Scot Scot is offline
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Amen !!!
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