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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #126  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:06 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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That lack of shop organization bothered me too. I would never have a repair done in a shop that looked like the one in those photos. Jerry, I think you need a new X5 and let BMW deal with the wreckage of your old one. As others have said, something had to take the stress of that sudden stoppage, transmission, drive line, whatever. You will not be getting the same car back again IMHO.
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  #127  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:52 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Originally Posted by 27outboard View Post
... what ASTOUNDS me about these photos is the lack of organization, no engine and/or transmission carts, no racks for hanging the front assembly; nothing.

It's simply amazing, to me, that your new and old engine, and for that matter, the reusable transmission, and everything else are laying on the shop floor! ...
I'm not familiar with common shop practices but I admit I was a bit surprised to see the engines just sitting on the floor. I don't imagine that removing an engine is an everyday occurrence, but still, wouldn't you have a rig of some sort to hold it?
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  #128  
Old 11-01-2009, 10:24 AM
texasdoc texasdoc is offline
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Ask them to buy it back

I agree with the notion that you should ask for a new vehicle. I had a year-old BMW which experienced extensive electrical gremlins. They threw every computerized part at it they possibly could, and after replacing probably $5k-10K worth of modules the BMW national tech rep decided the fault lay with the vehicle's main wiring harness. Repairing that required removing the entire dashboard and literally rewiring everything from scratch. I didn't want any part of that, and to BMW's credit they immediately acquiesced to my request for a new vehicle. They then bought the car from me at a very fair price and I was able to get a new vehicle from dealer stock at invoice.

I strongly suggest you start talking to BMWNA about this. I believe you already have a valid lemon law claim in Texas based purely on the amount of time this repair will take. BMW does NOT want the vehicle "lemoned" and would much rather repurchase it from you, fix it, then sell it to someone else.

I suspect you could even get a priority build on a new X5 35d rather than being thrown into the wait list.

Now, BMW and the dealer are not just going to come out and offer all this, but I think it's there for the asking. A catastrophic engine failure like this probably toasted the transmission as well, and I would agree with other posters that this shop doesn't know how to change an engine. A brand new engine should NOT be sitting on the floor! It's heavy and it wasn't intended to sit unsupported like that. As long as they are gentle it probably won't cause any damage, but it just suggests to me a sloppiness and lack of expertise that may lead to problems with the installation itself.
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  #129  
Old 11-01-2009, 03:41 PM
27outboard 27outboard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
I'm not familiar with common shop practices but I admit I was a bit surprised to see the engines just sitting on the floor. I don't imagine that removing an engine is an everyday occurrence, but still, wouldn't you have a rig of some sort to hold it?
Yes, absolutely...this is unacceptable, no new engine belongs on the ground or for that matter a transmission that is supposed to go back in the car. What they should have done was lower the old engine out of the engine bay, placing the engine and tranny on a engine cart for further work and inspection. That cart gets elevated so they can work on it at eye level and since they didn't do that, based on your pics, they obviously drilled on the block while it was on the ground too!

This install looks, and I am sure is, of the quality that would be more appropriate of a shade tree. You need to seriously question whether you want to accept that kind of workmanship on your new 65K car.

You've got those photos use them...I don't know who to call, others please chime, in because you need to send those photos to a regional tech forman and say I am not accepting this and I have no faith in the car/ the dealer/service dept.

And as I've reread many of the concerns about the tranny a.nd driveline, I have to agree Also, I would seriously investigate the lemon law in TX just to cover my bases.
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  #130  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:28 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
I'm not familiar with common shop practices but I admit I was a bit surprised to see the engines just sitting on the floor. I don't imagine that removing an engine is an everyday occurrence, but still, wouldn't you have a rig of some sort to hold it?
Even a shade tree mechanic like me has an Engine Hoist and an Engine Stand. I wouldn't even consider putting a new engine on the floor.

FWIW I have dropped engines and trannys onto wooden pallets mounted on HD casters. But I'd expect a pro shop to have both those engines on stands where they can work on them properly. I get very nervous when I see a shop using greasy 2x4s as engine stands.

Funf Dreisig
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  #131  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:26 PM
27outboard 27outboard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
Even a shade tree mechanic like me has an Engine Hoist and an Engine Stand. I wouldn't even consider putting a new engine on the floor.

FWIW I have dropped engines and trannys onto wooden pallets mounted on HD casters. But I'd expect a pro shop to have both those engines on stands where they can work on them properly. I get very nervous when I see a shop using greasy 2x4s as engine stands.

Funf Dreisig
Apologies to you, Funf. However, as you stated, this still indicates that they aren't a "pro" shop.
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  #132  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:08 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
. I get very nervous when I see a shop using greasy 2x4s as
Frankly I had to keep checking his location... the tile floor and mess reminded me of a eastern European look.

OP... We know you need to pick your battles appropriately.... file away the comments about engine on the floor if you need them. If you make a big deal about it now, what will it get you?

I would, however, make the full court press on the extended warranty NOW, not later. And remember, the dealer is NOT BMW! The dealer is an independent shop, totally separate from BMW- they are just acting as an agent for BMW in this case. So many owners do not understand the funny 'three way' relationship between BMW, dealer and owner...different agendas, different stories.

GL

A
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  #133  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:41 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
...OP... We know you need to pick your battles appropriately.... file away the comments about engine on the floor if you need them. If you make a big deal about it now, what will it get you?

I would, however, make the full court press on the extended warranty NOW, not later. And remember, the dealer is NOT BMW!....
Excellent advise.

The engines on the shop floor is an indicator, but not likely a determining factor, in the ultimate quality of the repair. Getting a written extended warranty FROM BMW is much more important. I'd put my efforts there.

Funf Dreisig

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 11-03-2009 at 05:16 AM.
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  #134  
Old 11-02-2009, 08:51 PM
CHC CHC is offline
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Jerry,

I agree with Ard, Funf, UncleJ, 27outboard, and texasdoc: a new extended warranty is priority #1. That point holds even if the engine and transmission was being replaced/repaired by a shop with engine stands. Leaving the engine on the shop floor only underscores the importance of that priority. Time for BMWNA to step up, which won't happen without you asking them to.

Good Luck. Keep us posted.
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  #135  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:54 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Appreciate all the comments, observations and suggestions.

My biggest concern is how the failure might have affected the rest of the drive train. Based on my limited (very limited) knowledge, it appears that the torque converter provides mechanical isolation between the engine and transmission. But what about the lockup clutch? When and how (mechanically) does it engage? The articles I've found indicate they engage as a function of speed. Although I can't recall our exact speed when the failure occurred, I'm sure it was at least 60 mph, perhaps 65 or 70. And if engaged, what are the ramifications of a sudden, violent crankshaft seizure?

Without knowing how the pieces fit together, it's difficult to know if my concerns are valid.
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  #136  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:35 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
Appreciate all the comments, observations and suggestions.

My biggest concern is how the failure might have affected the rest of the drive train. Based on my limited (very limited) knowledge, it appears that the torque converter provides mechanical isolation between the engine and transmission. But what about the lockup clutch? When and how (mechanically) does it engage? The articles I've found indicate they engage as a function of speed. Although I can't recall our exact speed when the failure occurred, I'm sure it was at least 60 mph, perhaps 65 or 70. And if engaged, what are the ramifications of a sudden, violent crankshaft seizure?

Without knowing how the pieces fit together, it's difficult to know if my concerns are valid.
You are over-thinking this.

You do not need to 'prove that the engine seizure did damage the tranny/driveline', just that 'it is possible it was damaged and BMW cannot prove it wasn't'.

There are a myriad of ways that this could manifest itself- tweaks to the isolation mounts, damage to the internal lock up mechanism on the torque converter, etc, etc.

Given that they are NOT going to dissassemble the trnny and chack every part for potential damage, all they will do is drive it and say "operating normally at this time, no codes or other errors", they cannot say - unequivocally- that it was unaffected. Absence of faults is not proof of no damage.

Do not go down the path of defining what the issues are- seek to insure against any future manifestation. If you do the former, they will run you around and you'll get nothing. Your argument is that they cannot address the unknown.... if it comes to it, demand a letter from BMW NA stating that 'lock up of an engine while driving at xx mph cannot, under any circumstance damage any other driveline component". Say, "You give me that in writing, I am happy- otherwise I want an extended warranty on the drivetrain"

2 cents\

A
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  #137  
Old 11-04-2009, 05:57 PM
diesaroo diesaroo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
You are over-thinking this.

You do not need to 'prove that the engine seizure did damage the tranny/driveline', just that 'it is possible it was damaged and BMW cannot prove it wasn't'.

There are a myriad of ways that this could manifest itself- tweaks to the isolation mounts, damage to the internal lock up mechanism on the torque converter, etc, etc.

Given that they are NOT going to dissassemble the trnny and chack every part for potential damage, all they will do is drive it and say "operating normally at this time, no codes or other errors", they cannot say - unequivocally- that it was unaffected. Absence of faults is not proof of no damage.

Do not go down the path of defining what the issues are- seek to insure against any future manifestation. If you do the former, they will run you around and you'll get nothing. Your argument is that they cannot address the unknown.... if it comes to it, demand a letter from BMW NA stating that 'lock up of an engine while driving at xx mph cannot, under any circumstance damage any other driveline component". Say, "You give me that in writing, I am happy- otherwise I want an extended warranty on the drivetrain"

2 cents\

A
Exactly...heck for all the trouble and possible depreciation that having an engine replaced may cause they should and probably would give you an extended bumper to bumper warranty as well if pushed.

Only when they know they have a very unhappy customer will things start to happen.

Oh and I completely agree with the others about the engines being on the floor. If I saw my brand new 20 some thousand dollar engine in the floor, not on an engine stand, I would have gone ballistic. Hopefully nothing was damaged and no shop floor dirt got anywhere it wasn't supposed to. The warranty will take care of that but still...

My father and I recently pulled the engine from my subaru for rebuild and even "shade tree" mechanics as we are, had enough sense to build an engine cradle out of 3/4 plywood and 2x10's to keep it off the floor and secure. Good luck
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  #138  
Old 11-04-2009, 06:23 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
..... it's difficult to know if my concerns are valid.
Your concerns are very valid. If BMW says they are certain that there was no other/further damage to the drive train, just tell them...
"In that case you should be very wiling to provide me with an extended drive train warranty. After all, if there actually was no other damage, I'll never need to use it. And you will have kept a BMW customer happy for nearly nothing. OTOH if you are unwilling to provide me with an extended drive train warranty I have to wonder just how confident you really are that there was no other damage/stress to the drive train. "

Fynf Dreisig
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  #139  
Old 11-04-2009, 07:56 PM
csecard csecard is offline
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BMW Diesel Engine Origin

Just another point of trivia, while at BMW Welt last week getting my 335d they provided a plant tour. On the tour they claimed that their diesel engines are produced in Austria, not Germany.
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  #140  
Old 11-05-2009, 08:47 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Update

They need to order a new crankshaft sensor, whatever that is.
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  #141  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:22 AM
vavet5308 vavet5308 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 27outboard View Post
So, what ASTOUNDS me about these photos is the lack of organization, no engine and/or transmission carts, no racks for hanging the front assembly; nothing.

It's simply amazing, to me, that your new and old engine, and for that matter, the reusable transmission, and everything else are laying on the shop floor!
This has little to do with their ability and much more to do with time. This is a flat rate shop. The tech has bills to pay and needs to get cars in an out, often getting paid .3 hr at a time for an oil change and "check car over".

Factory tools, stands, and racks are available, for those who work in shops that buy them and for those who can FIND them. It takes time to find the proper tools, assemble them, and mount the components to the racks. It's fine in a learning or rebuilding environment, but in a shop where you just need to get things done where it's all about component replacement? It's time (and money) the tech will never recoup.

FWIW, I was a dealer tech for almost 3 years. The work? I loved. It's hard to make a living at it though by the time you buy your tools, deal with customers, diagnose problems that they don't want to spend money for, and write appropriate stories to get paid under warranty.
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  #142  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:49 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Originally Posted by csecard View Post
Just another point of trivia, while at BMW Welt last week getting my 335d they provided a plant tour. On the tour they claimed that their diesel engines are produced in Austria, not Germany.
Yeah, I saw one of those "how do they do it" sort of educational programs on the Science Channel, or one of those channels, in the past month and one of the segments went through the manufacture of BMW diesel engines. I was surprised they were not manufactured in Germany.

Can't remember the exact channel or program, but if you Tivo, searching with diesel and BMW as key words might pop up a repeat, since they typically repeat these programs every couple of months.
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  #143  
Old 11-05-2009, 01:03 PM
27outboard 27outboard is offline
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[QUOTE=vavet5308;4657968]This has little to do with their ability and much more to do with time. This is a flat rate shop. The tech has bills to pay and needs to get cars in an out, often getting paid .3 hr at a time for an oil change and "check car over".

Factory tools, stands, and racks are available, for those who work in shops that buy them and for those who can FIND them. It takes time to find the proper tools, assemble them, and mount the components to the racks. It's fine in a learning or rebuilding environment, but in a shop where you just need to get things done where it's all about component replacement? It's time (and money) the tech will never recoup.

FWIW, I was a dealer tech for almost 3 years. The work? I loved. It's hard to make a living at it though by the time you buy your tools, deal with customers, diagnose problems that they don't want to spend money for, and write appropriate stories to get paid under warranty.[/QU N

Interesting point and should provide another strong example to the OP as to why he should be pursuing an extended warranty, at the very least, from BMW NA.
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  #144  
Old 11-05-2009, 03:18 PM
diesaroo diesaroo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vavet5308 View Post
This has little to do with their ability and much more to do with time. This is a flat rate shop. The tech has bills to pay and needs to get cars in an out, often getting paid .3 hr at a time for an oil change and "check car over".

Factory tools, stands, and racks are available, for those who work in shops that buy them and for those who can FIND them. It takes time to find the proper tools, assemble them, and mount the components to the racks. It's fine in a learning or rebuilding environment, but in a shop where you just need to get things done where it's all about component replacement? It's time (and money) the tech will never recoup.

FWIW, I was a dealer tech for almost 3 years. The work? I loved. It's hard to make a living at it though by the time you buy your tools, deal with customers, diagnose problems that they don't want to spend money for, and write appropriate stories to get paid under warranty.
This is exactly what is screwed up with the dealer service system. The corporate guys should provide all the necessary tools that the tech needs to do the job and not make the tech buy them since this would insure a better repair. i.e. less rework from shortcuts and happier techs that might hang around longer given a better environment.
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  #145  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:43 AM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Got a call from the service dept. The vehicle is ready for pick up.
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  #146  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:57 AM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
Got a call from the service dept. The vehicle is ready for pick up.

Once you drive off the lot, your chances of negotiating anything are virtually zero.

Might I suggest that you take a 20 mile drive with the SA or service manager BEFORE you sign ANYTHING to ensure the car is operating perfectly, without a single rattle or glitch???
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  #147  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:57 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Originally Posted by diesaroo View Post
The corporate guys should provide all the necessary tools that the tech needs to do the job and not make the tech buy them since this would insure a better repair.

The dealers are essentially franchisees, so I can't imagine BMW Corporate would provide free tools under that model.

FWIW, tools do have a habit of disappearing, and if a tech owns his own tools, he generally keeps better track of them in the shop.

But in this case of not using an engine stand, I think the main reason is that since dealers are such expensive places to have work done, replacing an entire engine is probably an extremely rare event for most BMW franchises, since few people contemplating that large of a job on their own money would likely find an independent to do it. And engine replacement under warranty is, hopefully, a very rare occurence. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller BMW franchises have never replaced an engine, so it seems unlikely they would have an engine stand as part of their tool inventory.

That said, there is nothing to prevent the dealer from renting a universal engine stand on the rare occasion they do that sort of work. Typically any town of size would have a business that would rent an engine stand.
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  #148  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:31 PM
diesaroo diesaroo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
The dealers are essentially franchisees, so I can't imagine BMW Corporate would provide free tools under that model.

FWIW, tools do have a habit of disappearing, and if a tech owns his own tools, he generally keeps better track of them in the shop.

But in this case of not using an engine stand, I think the main reason is that since dealers are such expensive places to have work done, replacing an entire engine is probably an extremely rare event for most BMW franchises, since few people contemplating that large of a job on their own money would likely find an independent to do it. And engine replacement under warranty is, hopefully, a very rare occurence. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller BMW franchises have never replaced an engine, so it seems unlikely they would have an engine stand as part of their tool inventory.

That said, there is nothing to prevent the dealer from renting a universal engine stand on the rare occasion they do that sort of work. Typically any town of size would have a business that would rent an engine stand.
Right, but imagine every tech having to buy every special tool necessary to perform a range of services on all BMW's past and present. Couple that with a high pressure environment and low pay, and it's asking a lot from the tech.

Hence the reason why there are so many independent shops out there. The good techs get fed up and start their own shop.

In a perfect world, dealers would be the best place to take your car since they "should" know it the best. Maybe dealerships should own tools and allow techs to use them as needed using some check-in/out procedures to make sure they don't get lost.

I don't pretend to have a complete solution but I think everyone agrees the whole dealer service system could stand to improve greatly.

Last edited by diesaroo; 11-06-2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason: sic
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  #149  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:53 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by diesaroo View Post

Hence the reason why there are so many independent sh[o]ps out there. The good techs get fed up and start their own shop.
There is an interesting phenomena that folks might not readily see- mechanics see customers day in and day out, coming to the dealer and blindly spending $140 an hour on 'book time', and think "wow, this is so easy- like shooting fish in a barrel'....

Well, they discover that they universe of 'customers' is 'those that go to dealers and pay dealer prices because they are scared to go elsewhere or are ignorant' PLUS 'those that don't want to get hosed'.

Once they put up their own shingle, they loose the most price-insensitive part of the population.... they discover it isn't as easy as it looks...

I agree the dealer should provide some basic level of 'marque-specific tools' for their shop to use... say items that are large enough to not walk out, or that need to be checked out to the mechanic as needed...

A
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  #150  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:53 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
...
That said, there is nothing to prevent the dealer from renting a universal engine stand on the rare occasion they do that sort of work. Typically any town of size would have a business that would rent an engine stand.
Not to mention that there is an Engine Hoist with nothing hanging on it visible in the photos the OP posted (#116). So this particular shop is not completely devoid of a way to keep that new engine off the shop floor Presumably the engine hoist could have been used to lower the busted and new engines to the floor gently

AFAIK BMW doesn't ship engines from Europe to the US in cardboard boxes stuffed with plastic peanuts. SO, almost certainly, the new engine came in some kind of crate with mounts to support the engine during shipping. I'm guessing that the new engine didn't get out of the crate and onto the floor all by itself.

Funf Dreisig

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 11-06-2009 at 01:08 PM.
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