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  #1  
Old 03-25-2002, 05:19 AM
TD
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Thumbs up The E65 IS going to FAIL.

I went down to my dealer to pick up some pre-track day supplies (DOT4 brake fluid, more oil) and took a look around. And I have a few E65 observations to report.

1. The car WILL fail in the marketplace. It's just too ugly for anyone with mainstream tastes to purchase. IMO, it's analogous to those pictures of models at "high fashion" fashion shows. Basically, no REAL person would ever be caught deaad wearing that sh*t. Well, the E65 is basically the same. A handful of flashy rich folks will buy them for the sheer noticability of the design but anyone with actual taste and refinement will not be able to get past the styling. It's just too hideous.

2. The car does look different in person. Not better. Just different.

3. Color and rim size matters. I saw a light colored E65 with 19 inch rims and it did look measurably better than a dark green E65 with 18 inch rims parked next to it. And everyone there (me, my wife, two salespeople) agreed that the lighter one actually looked smaller (obviously an illusion) and that that made it look better.

4. There were about a dozen "in stock and ready for delivery" and they were willing to deal. When asked how they were selling, I was told "not as well as hoped". Seeing how JST reported in another thread that BMW of Sterling has a supply in stock as well, we'll just have to see how the month 2 numbers look. I laughed when the salesman I talked too (not my regular salesman) parroted the party-line that "a good design requires time to grow on you". My wife replied by pointing to a Z8 and saying, "That design sure did not require any time to grow on me." Enough said. (BTW, he admitted to being terrified of the pics of the CS1.)

This is a BIG dealership in an area where BMWs are as common as Hondas. Looking out on the lot and seeing a long row of those hideous eyebrows staring at you is enough to make you run back to your car and drive straight to an Audi dealership.

So my "revised" opinion is that the car WILL fail and that it does look *slightly* better in a light color with the upgraded rims. And we're talking a small degree here. By no means do I consider the look acceptable.

"Ding dong, the witch is dead... "

Last edited by TD; 10-30-2003 at 07:25 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-25-2002, 05:29 AM
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rost12 rost12 is offline
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Just wondering....weren't Z's designed by Bangle ?
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  #3  
Old 03-25-2002, 05:32 AM
TD
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Originally posted by rost12
Just wondering....weren't Z's designed by Bangle ?
A. This is an E65 rant not a Bangle rant.

B. Henrik Fiskar designed the Z8 (although Bangle was Head of Design at the time).
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  #4  
Old 03-25-2002, 05:45 AM
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Thanks.

I don't get one thing.
You don't like it, ok, don't buy it.

Just don't make assumptions about people who like it.
"A handful of flashy rich folks will buy them for the sheer noticability of the design but anyone with actual taste and refinement will not be able to get past the styling."
Hey, I've got taste. I own a Mac And I like E65. And I'm not flashy.

You are not realy in a position to judge other people's preferences, are you ?
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  #5  
Old 03-25-2002, 06:26 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Numbers don't lie, and they're looking pretty good so far. My local dealers have yet to have one available.
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  #6  
Old 03-25-2002, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEX325i
Numbers don't lie, and they're looking pretty good so far. My local dealers have yet to have one available.
Yeah, eight percent above 7 series sales from 7-8 years ago. That's a real success story. Each of the four dealers in DC that I've visited in the past two weeks have had several unsold sitting on the lot.

We'll see. IMHO, 2003 E65=1996 Taurus. Each was a bold attempt to take styling leadership. Each had an overwrought "theme" (the "hand of man" versus "oval bonanza"). Each had seemingly legitimate justifications for the styling. Each polarized the community, with defenders saying "it's new, it's distinctive, it will take time to get used to" (oddly, when it came to the Taurus, I was one of them) and detractors saying "it's hideous." The Taurus was redesigned as quickly as politically feasible (it wasn't as serious a disaster as the Aztek, and thus didn't need an unprecedented one-year redesign).

Similarly, I suspect that the E65 will be given a facelift in one or two years, and that the facelift will tweak the grille, head and tail lights (and maybe the bustle back). As with the Taurus, the ironic thing is that this kind of detail change may be all that's necessary to transform a frankly awful design into something actually quite nice.

And as long as we're drawing parallels, anyone else notice the resemblence between iDrive and the ill-fated Buick Reatta CRT touch-screen?
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  #7  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:04 AM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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fully agree with JST: re: emergency "updating".

since they didn't seem to have a problem (no matter how you feel about it) doing the 2002 retouching of the 3 series, there is no doubt that they'll redo some of the E65 lines.

bigger problem? if the reception for the E65 is this poor, i think some red alerts might go off at HQ and might delay the new 6 series, the 5 series successor, and make them rethink some of the touches on the new Z5 car.

which means delays in getting them to the marketplace; i.e. financial trouble.
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:06 AM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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one more question:

you're affluent.

you are getting a new sedan but the idea of a cadillac makes your skin crawl.

look at the new S class.

look at the new E65.

we should compare the sales figures for the 2 cars over the next year.
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:10 AM
in_d_haus in_d_haus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEX325i
Numbers don't lie, and they're looking pretty good so far. My local dealers have yet to have one available.
If ya want one come up here, they got 4 on the lot.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:15 AM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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there are at least 8 in st.louis.

and this is a town where bmw's are popular since it's so affordable to live here. a lot of people can afford nice cars.

for the demographic here, this speaks volumes to me. so far, an n=3 (DC, STL, and wherever indahaus is from).
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:19 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JST


Yeah, eight percent above 7 series sales from 7-8 years ago. That's a real success story. Each of the four dealers in DC that I've visited in the past two weeks have had several unsold sitting on the lot.

We'll see. IMHO, 2003 E65=1996 Taurus. Each was a bold attempt to take styling leadership. Each had an overwrought "theme" (the "hand of man" versus "oval bonanza"). Each had seemingly legitimate justifications for the styling. Each polarized the community, with defenders saying "it's new, it's distinctive, it will take time to get used to" (oddly, when it came to the Taurus, I was one of them) and detractors saying "it's hideous." The Taurus was redesigned as quickly as politically feasible (it wasn't as serious a disaster as the Aztek, and thus didn't need an unprecedented one-year redesign).

Similarly, I suspect that the E65 will be given a facelift in one or two years, and that the facelift will tweak the grille, head and tail lights (and maybe the bustle back). As with the Taurus, the ironic thing is that this kind of detail change may be all that's necessary to transform a frankly awful design into something actually quite nice.

And as long as we're drawing parallels, anyone else notice the resemblence between iDrive and the ill-fated Buick Reatta CRT touch-screen?
You're WRONG! Search on the ORG for the numbers published by Fred Merloan (I think Nate published the link here some time ago). If I remember right, they are MUCH more relevant than that. And they compare E65 sales to E38 sales in the same period last year.

Edit:

And honestly, I don't give a $hit to what you think of the E65.
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Last edited by ALEX325i; 03-25-2002 at 07:42 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:22 AM
Teej Teej is offline
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yea, I counted at least 5-6 sitting out on the lot at BMW of Sterling yesterday, and 1 inside. Oh and did anyone read the interview with Bangle in the latest Car?? Also mentions somewhere in the article how sales figures from US and Japan look promising for the new 7, but not the figures in Europe itself.
Bangle also talks about the CS1 concept, the next 3, 5...read it when you get a chance.
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:40 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Re: fully agree with JST: re: emergency "updating".

Quote:
Originally posted by blackdawg
since they didn't seem to have a problem (no matter how you feel about it) doing the 2002 retouching of the 3 series, there is no doubt that they'll redo some of the E65 lines.

bigger problem? if the reception for the E65 is this poor, i think some red alerts might go off at HQ and might delay the new 6 series, the 5 series successor, and make them rethink some of the touches on the new Z5 car.

which means delays in getting them to the marketplace; i.e. financial trouble.
Well, the E65 certainly is a controversial design. Although I like the E65, many people don't. We'll see how it goes.

You're right on the financial trouble they may end up facing. Given the sales records they've been breaking, they're probably thinking they can get away with anything, and that people will keep buying whatever they sell...
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  #14  
Old 03-25-2002, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
There were about a dozen "in stock and ready for delivery" and they were willing to deal. When asked how they were selling, I was told "not as well as hoped". Seeing how JST reported in another thread that BMW of Sterling has a supply in stock as well.

It must be a regional thing. Every E65 that comes off the truck at my local BMW Center is a sold unit. They always try to have 2 demos on site, but occasionally will sell one leaving them with the remaining one. I've heard it's the same way in Atlanta, GA. The car seems to be doing well in the Southeast.
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  #15  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEX325i


You're WRONG! Search on the ORG for the numbers published by Fred Merloan (I think Nate published the link here some time ago). If I remember right, they are MUCH more relevant than that. And they compare E65 sales to E38 sales in the same period last year.

Edit:

And honestly, I don't give a $hit to what you think of the E65.

Numbers don't lie, right? Numbers do anything you want them to.

BMWAG management, when asked recently about the sales of the E65, said that they were pleased because sales were 8 percent above sales of the E38 at this point in the E38's life-cycle (in other words, shortly after launch). IMHO (and apparently in BMW AG's, too) this is a much more relevant measure than comparing sales of a new model to sales of a lame-duck model one year ago. And (now strictly IMHO) it shows that the E65's sales really aren't that great. An eight percent increase over 7 years? That just doesn't sound very impressive.

There's no need to curse. If you don't care what I think, why are you posting?
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:22 AM
31st330i 31st330i is offline
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just thought I'd add my 31 cents....

my dealer (in the SF bay area) had at least 5 in stock and ready for delivery on friday. while hot new models usually fly right out of the showroom, this is a very expensive car so comparing sales numbers might be the only way to accuratly tell if it' really "selling" or not.

then again, they have 3 minis in stock (plus one original austin mini cooper in BRG) and I know these must be sold units. perhaps they are required to keep the first few in stock for test drives etc.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:33 AM
PropellerHead PropellerHead is offline
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BMW purist hated the 5 series E34 (no sharknose), and E39 (too "round"), too. Change is hard for a lot of people.

I don't think it's too terrible to facelift in two years. The 3 E46 3 series did, and I bought one. Took a few minutes to get used to it, but once I saw it in person, then DROVE it, I was hooked.

What do you tell people who cant understand why you spent "so much" on a BMW? You tell them the same thing we all tell them: It's a driver's car. You're either a driver or you're not. You don't expect them to judge any BMW from the outside, why should you?

Drive the E65. Or better, get SPANKED by one in 0-60 as you search for a missed gear. This is not to imply that you can't drive, but that a missed gear *could* happen in a manual, but probably wouldn't in an auto.

When you actually drive the E65, you forget about the trunk and the headlights, let the fans cool your a$$, and cruise to 110mph just by curling your toes on the right pedal. That V8 will push a lot of tin, and it may even spank the right I6 60-100. Until you drive it, you're just on the outside lookin in.
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:44 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JST



Numbers don't lie, right? Numbers do anything you want them to.

BMWAG management, when asked recently about the sales of the E65, said that they were pleased because sales were 8 percent above sales of the E38 at this point in the E38's life-cycle (in other words, shortly after launch). IMHO (and apparently in BMW AG's, too) this is a much more relevant measure than comparing sales of a new model to sales of a lame-duck model one year ago. And (now strictly IMHO) it shows that the E65's sales really aren't that great. An eight percent increase over 7 years? That just doesn't sound very impressive.

There's no need to curse. If you don't care what I think, why are you posting?
Curse??? You're too sensitive...

I posted because you ARE wrong. Here's the sales figures I was referring to: E65 sales to date

As you can see, there's an increase of 49.11% - 2,857 units sold vs 1,916 last year in sales compared to the same period last year.

Now, feel free to go ahead and say those numbers are cooked. I really don't care.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:47 AM
TD
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Originally posted by ALEX325i


Curse??? You're too sensitive.

I posted you ARE wrong. Here's the sales figures I was referring to: E65 sales to date

As you can see, there's an increase of 49.11% - 2,857 units sold vs 1,916 last year in sales compared to the same period last year.

Now, feel free to go ahead and say those numbers are cooked. I really don't care.
Am I the only one who thinks Alex takes this argument WAY too personally? I mean, it's like someone's been insulting his mother.

And calling JST "WRONG" for suggesting that numbers are flexible and relative is absurd. Of course numbers are open to spin.

But the bigger question is why are you so personally offended by suggestions that the E65 is anything less than perfect? No matter which side of teh E65 fence you fall on, we should all agree that we want the marque to succeed and to continue to build enthusiast-oriented cars. Why make it personal?
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  #20  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:51 AM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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those are good points, propellerhead.

unfortunately, to get inside the car with the desire to drive one: you have to be able to have the car appeal to you a priori.

i would agree with you. the engine and the ride in the E65 are superb. stupid as it sounds, it is nimble and handled decently.

it would be interesting to listen in on the market research department. my gut says buyers of the 7series, S class aren't exactly opting for "driver's cars" which is unfortunate since this is the e65's strength. that's probably the role of the M5. the 7 series buyer who still wants a driver's car.

someone also brought up the current e39 5 series. it was one of the first bangle-signature cars. i hate that car and the way it looks. the only visually appealing one to me is the M5 with its airdam and subtle trunk spoiler. the other ones have never grown on me. but this car has fared rather well. design-wise, at least the e39 has continuity from front to rear.
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  #21  
Old 03-25-2002, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEX325i


Curse??? You're too sensitive...

I posted because you ARE wrong. Here's the sales figures I was referring to: E65 sales to date

As you can see, there's an increase of 49.11% - 2,857 units sold vs 1,916 last year in sales compared to the same period last year.

Now, feel free to go ahead and say those numbers are cooked. I really don't care.
That does nothing to prove me wrong; it simply sidesteps my point. Note that the following statements are both true:

1. US sales of the E65 are substantially higher (49 percent sounds right) than sales of the E38 were last year.

2. Global sales of the E65 are up only about 8 percent over sales of the E38 during the E38's first months on the market, seven or so years ago.

Quoting (1) to refute (2) is nonsensical. Whether you believe that (1) or (2) is more relevant depends to a large degree on your opinion of whether the E65 should succeed. However, I will point out two things. First, US sales numbers are not necessarily representative of global sales numbers, given the reports that the E65 is doing well in the US and Asia, but is disappointing in Germany. Second, when BMW AG was asked, they used the numbers in (2), rather than those in (1), apparently because they believe these numbers are more relevant.
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  #22  
Old 03-25-2002, 09:02 AM
Imola Ed Imola Ed is offline
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Maybe it's me...

... but is it really reasonable to expect a 70K car to be something that dealers can't keep in stock? Even here in the bay area, it's a lot for a car. Certainly it's not the next Boxster, or M3 which everyone must own and will get on a list for a year or two. It's just a high end sedan, IMHO. Would I buy one? Maybe. I'm not ready for such a car yet though.

Did the prior model fare that well that they couldn't keep up with demand? If not, why is this one expected to sell out such that having some sit on a lot means failure?
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Old 03-25-2002, 09:05 AM
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wait....i missed that.

why on earth would anyone compare a novel, redone model to the sales of a lame duck model?

if BMW did that, that is purely for spin for shareholders or something.
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  #24  
Old 03-25-2002, 09:26 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TD


Am I the only one who thinks Alex takes this argument WAY too personally? I mean, it's like someone's been insulting his mother.

And calling JST "WRONG" for suggesting that numbers are flexible and relative is absurd. Of course numbers are open to spin.

But the bigger question is why are you so personally offended by suggestions that the E65 is anything less than perfect? No matter which side of teh E65 fence you fall on, we should all agree that we want the marque to succeed and to continue to build enthusiast-oriented cars. Why make it personal?
Like I said, I really don't care what the world thinks of the E65. I'm not making it personal. I'm only voicing my opinion. If I disagree with what I read, I go ahead and make my point. Take it for what it's worth.

I said JST was wrong and he IS. He said numbers were compared to those 7-8 years ago, and THAT what's wrong. And the last thing I need is a lecture on how "flexible" numbers are.

But that's my point!!! I'm just saying I don't think they'll fail. I truly wish the marque succeeds - now, if your understanding of succeeding is making cars that YOU like, I think you better start your own car company, because the marketplace in the not so distant future doesn't look good for you.

Also, while I doubt 80% of the E65 buyers are looking for enthusiast-oriented cars, I bet you the E65 is THE most enthusiast-oriented car in its segment, which is one of the things I've been advocating all along.

Again, I'm not making it personal. I simply voice my opinion whenever I feel like doing it. I think you're just doing the same.

Edit:

Just one other thing I never mentioned... I DROVE THE CAR!!!
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Last edited by ALEX325i; 03-25-2002 at 09:39 AM.
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  #25  
Old 03-25-2002, 09:30 AM
ALEX325i ALEX325i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PropellerHead
BMW purist hated the 5 series E34 (no sharknose), and E39 (too "round"), too. Change is hard for a lot of people.

I don't think it's too terrible to facelift in two years. The 3 E46 3 series did, and I bought one. Took a few minutes to get used to it, but once I saw it in person, then DROVE it, I was hooked.

What do you tell people who cant understand why you spent "so much" on a BMW? You tell them the same thing we all tell them: It's a driver's car. You're either a driver or you're not. You don't expect them to judge any BMW from the outside, why should you?

Drive the E65. Or better, get SPANKED by one in 0-60 as you search for a missed gear. This is not to imply that you can't drive, but that a missed gear *could* happen in a manual, but probably wouldn't in an auto.

When you actually drive the E65, you forget about the trunk and the headlights, let the fans cool your a$$, and cruise to 110mph just by curling your toes on the right pedal. That V8 will push a lot of tin, and it may even spank the right I6 60-100. Until you drive it, you're just on the outside lookin in.
AMEN!!!
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