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  #1  
Old 03-26-2002, 08:45 AM
AF AF is offline
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2002 330 doesn't tramline like the 2001 330

For those that read my comments, I was totally wrong yesterday when I said the 2002 330i with sports package (my loaner car) tramlines as much as my 2001 330CI with sport package.
Today I drove on an Expressway where my car loves to dart around and the 2002 didnít dart around nearly as much, in fact it was very steady with only slight tramlining (and I mean slight) It is much more controllable to drive which is probably my only complaint with my 2001.
I donít know if the tires had anything to do with it, but the 2002 had Contiís while my 2001 has Michelins.Also, the turn-in (like I said yesterday) is so freakin quick itís great . .. As far as a tire comparison, the Contiís really handle very well which I was surprised from what people say around here I expected them to handle so-so compared to my Pilotís.
Anyway, after driving the 2002 I could live very easily with it except the steering effort is a little heavier than I am used to (no flames on that one please) I am sure I would get used to it just fine.
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  #2  
Old 03-26-2002, 09:08 AM
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johnlew johnlew is offline
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I have Mich Pilots and my car tramlines like crazy. I forgot after driving on my winter set how much the car darted around. What do you mean by "turn in?"
  #3  
Old 03-26-2002, 09:18 AM
AF AF is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnlew
I have Mich Pilots and my car tramlines like crazy. I forgot after driving on my winter set how much the car darted around. What do you mean by "turn in?"
Turn-in is the intial response when you turn the steering wheel off center.

In other words, you are driving straight and then you start to turn the wheel to the right , the moment you star to turn the steering wheel from the center position to the right is called turn-in.
  #4  
Old 03-26-2002, 06:36 PM
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I have a strong hunch that tramlining has a lot to do with the tread design...
  #5  
Old 03-26-2002, 07:05 PM
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nate nate is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ff
I have a strong hunch that tramlining has a lot to do with the tread design...
You are right, it is the tread pattern that causes the tramlining....
  #6  
Old 03-27-2002, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nate328Ci


You are right, it is the tread pattern that causes the tramlining....
So many people claim that they "know" it's caused by the wheel size. This just doesn't make sense. It seems so obvious that the tread design, and more specifically the number of ribs in the tread design, will have everything to do with the stability over uneven pavement.
  #7  
Old 03-27-2002, 05:57 AM
geomax geomax is offline
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Also, a newer tire would tramline more because of the tread depth. The tread blocks squirm more when new. Thats why tires get their max responsiveness when they're nearly worn out.
  #8  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:01 AM
blackdawg blackdawg is offline
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tramlining....

agree with ff....likely newer treaded tires plus tread design for sure.

if you're really aggravated by it, next time you get an alignment (or get one now), ask for a tad toe-in.

it helps.
  #9  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:05 AM
TD
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On this issue, I can attest that SIZE DOES NOT MATTER.

I have exactly the same size wheels and tires on my E36 M3 as I did on my 2001 330i. And, while my 330i tramlined badly, my M3 only tramlines on the worst uneven pavement and then only slightly. And, as I said, the M3 wears the exact same staggered setup the 330s do.

Also, both cars were delivered to me with brand new rubber all around (the 330 because it was new and the M3 because it was CPOd). So I'm skeptical of the thread theory as well.

Any other ideas?
  #10  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:16 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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The tread theory is definitely a reality. Think about it like this: you've got tall tread blocks with lots of sharp edges to catch on the slightest bumps and what-not in the road surface. Naturally it's going to cause some "squirliness" to occur since the tread blocks will actually flex left/right/forward/backward depending on the driving conditions (straight-line, turning, accelerating, braking). This is the reason people have their tires (of course this usually only applies to rcomps) shaved, usually down to 2-3/32nds.

I imagine not only does tread design have an adverse effect on this tramlining problem, but so does tire width (not necessarily overall tire size, just the contact patch size) and the composition of the tire rubber (hard/soft). The next time you drive on "grooved pavement" think about how hard it would be to ride a bicycle down that same road at 65mph.
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  #11  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:38 AM
TD
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Quote:
Originally posted by webguy330i
The tread theory is definitely a reality. Think about it like this: you've got tall tread blocks with lots of sharp edges to catch on the slightest bumps and what-not in the road surface. Naturally it's going to cause some "squirliness" to occur since the tread blocks will actually flex left/right/forward/backward depending on the driving conditions (straight-line, turning, accelerating, braking). This is the reason people have their tires (of course this usually only applies to rcomps) shaved, usually down to 2-3/32nds.
I have brand new tires on my M3 and it does not tramline but my 330i w/13K miles on it (at which time the tires had ~20% tread left) tramlined BADLY.

I still dispute the tread theory.
  #12  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:40 AM
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johnlew johnlew is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TD


I have brand new tires on my M3 and it does not tramline but my 330i w/13K miles on it (at which time the tires had ~20% tread left) tramlined BADLY.

I still dispute the tread theory.
same tires?
  #13  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:42 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TD


I have brand new tires on my M3 and it does not tramline but my 330i w/13K miles on it (at which time the tires had ~20% tread left) tramlined BADLY.

I still dispute the tread theory.
Well while there are other things that can contribute to tramlining, tires are the largest factor and tread height is the culprit. You better just accept that!
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  #14  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:42 AM
TD
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnlew


same tires?
As I said further up the thread, same exact sizes, front and rear. But the 330i had Pilot Sports while the E36 M3 has ContiSport Contacts.
  #15  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:46 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TD

But the 330i had Pilot Sports while the E36 M3 has ContiSport Contacts.
Do we really need to discuss this further? Check out ff's first post.
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  #16  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:48 AM
TD
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Quote:
Originally posted by webguy330i


Do we really need to discuss this further? Check out ff's first post.
So are we saying the Pilots have a tread design that is prone to tramlining?
  #17  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:53 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TD


So are we saying the Pilots have a tread design that is prone to tramlining?
Yeah since the tread pattern is VERY much directional, whereas the contis (while still being directional) are not nearly as specific with the tread pattern.

It's like course vs. fine sandpaper; which do you think would be easier to rub across a rough surface? Which has more raised edges?
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  #18  
Old 03-27-2002, 07:59 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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My apologies, the contisport is asymmetrical not directional, which further emphasizes my point.
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  #19  
Old 03-27-2002, 03:05 PM
Gs330Ci Gs330Ci is offline
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I will have to say that I do not believe tread design is the major contributor to whether a tire tramlines. My 96 M3 had Michellin Pilots with a completely different tread design than the current Pilot Sports, but tramlined badly. It sounds like the current Pilot Sports still tramline badly.

My 2001 330Ci with sport package has Dunlops from factory of the exact same size as the tires on my 96 M3. My 330Ci does not exhibit any noticible tramlinning. I think the tramlinning is more due to differences in the tire structure such as sidewall construction and stiffness than tread design.

Some have stated that tire size has little to do with tramlinning. I disagree with that. I believe it is fairly common knowledge that a wider, lower profile tire is more likely to tramline than a more conventional tire.
  #20  
Old 03-28-2002, 04:22 AM
ff ff is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gs330Ci
I will have to say that I do not believe tread design is the major contributor to whether a tire tramlines. My 96 M3 had Michellin Pilots with a completely different tread design than the current Pilot Sports, but tramlined badly. It sounds like the current Pilot Sports still tramline badly.
That doesn't reinforce your claim very well. It just says that the Michelin Pilots didn't do a better job of controlling tramlining with the new design.

Check out the difference in tread designs between the Pilots and Conti's. BTW, my Conti's don't tramline at all, and they are relatively new (under 2000 miles), and they are plenty wide and low-profile (P225 and P245). This shoots another theory that I've heard in the foot.

Notice the number of longitudinal ribs on the Conti's, and the complete lack thereof in the Pilots:

Pilots


Conti's
  #21  
Old 03-28-2002, 06:48 AM
Gs330Ci Gs330Ci is offline
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No, actually slacker, it does reinforce my point. My point is that the tread design is not the major factor in determing whether a tire tramlines. That is the reason I stated that the older Pilots and the newer ones seem to tramline more than some other tires of same size, even though the older Pilots have completely different tread design than the newer ones.

My 96 M3 with Pilots tramlined badly, but my 2001 330Ci with same size tires, but Dunlops instead of Pilots, does not tramline. Also, if you don't think a wider, lower profile tire is more likely to tramline than a "regular passenger car" tire, call Tirerack and ask some of their experts. Notice I said a wider, low profile tire is more LIKELY to tramline than a regular tire. I did not state that all wide, low profile tires will tramline, they are just more likely to.
  #22  
Old 03-28-2002, 06:54 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gs330Ci
No, actually slacker, it does reinforce my point. My point is that the tread design is not the major factor in determing whether a tire tramlines. That is the reason I stated that the older Pilots and the newer ones seem to tramline more than some other tires of same size, even though the older Pilots have completely different tread design than the newer ones.
Hey you'll be a slacker soon too ya know. =)

BTW, what you're presenting here is nothing more than circumstancial... you say that just because your older Pilot Sports had a different tread design than the new ones, and both tramlined, that it's absolutely impossible for tread design to be a major factor? That's so presumptuous. While I do agree it has something to do with the tire composition and build (i.e. sidewall stiffness, which Pilot Sports are very hardcore about) I don't think you can automatically throw the tire tread design theory out the window based on your "conclusive" experiences with old/new Pilot Sports.
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  #23  
Old 03-28-2002, 07:14 AM
Gs330Ci Gs330Ci is offline
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Webguy, I am not stating conclusively that tread design does not effect tramlining. I am just stating that the old Pilots and new Pilots, with completely different tread design, both seem to tramline. My 330Ci with Dunlops that have tread design similar to my older Pilots do not exhibit any tramlining. That seems to indicate to me that tread design is not as major a factor as other factors such as tire construction, especialy the sidewalls.

I have read several articles in auto magazines about high performance tires and those guys seeem to attribute the tramlining more to tire design/construction, rather than tread design.

Take it for what it's worth. As I said in earlier post, call Tirerack and ask those guys. Also, I am not saying that a tire that tramlines like the Pilots is inferior to a tire that does not tramline. In some aspects, it might be better for handleing. It is just annoying to have the car tramline.
  #24  
Old 03-28-2002, 07:19 AM
webguy330i webguy330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gs330Ci
Webguy, I am not stating conclusively that tread design does not effect tramlining. I am just stating that the old Pilots and new Pilots, with completely different tread design, both seem to tramline. My 330Ci with Dunlops that have tread design similar to my older Pilots do not exhibit any tramlining. That seems to indicate to me that tread design is not as major a factor as other factors such as tire construction, especialy the sidewalls.

I have read several articles in auto magazines about high performance tires and those guys seeem to attribute the tramlining more to tire design/construction, rather than tread design.

Take it for what it's worth. As I said in earlier post, call Tirerack and ask those guys. Also, I am not saying that a tire that tramlines like the Pilots is inferior to a tire that does not tramline. In some aspects, it might be better for handleing. It is just annoying to have the car tramline.
Taken and noted. Also, I agree with you on the width factor. More surface area != less tramlining.
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2002, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by webguy330i


Taken and noted. Also, I agree with you on the width factor. More surface area != less tramlining.

!=
Sneaky, huh?


Maybe it should say "doesn't necessarily mean less tramlining". Compare a racing slick (no ribs) to a Conti (quite a few ribs). The higher the rib count (wider tire) the less the other portions of the tire will be affected by a groove in the road (for example). The one rib that's affected will be able to move independently of the others, thus reducing the effects. Wide, uninterupted ribs (a.k.a. Michellin Pilots, or racing slick) will have a harder time moving independently, because it is a larger body of rubber.

Heck, we could argue this until we're blue in the face. Maybe we can all decide on:

Stiffer tire compound and sidewalls: usually more tramlining
Less tire ribs: usually more tramlining
Less-linear tread design: usually more tramlining

:thumb:
 

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