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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #1  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:29 PM
deknight deknight is offline
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Z4 MC Rotora Brakes and 4 seconds off best time!

I got Rotora 4 pot brakes in front and rear ionstalled on my Z4 M coupe and they work great. I am still running the stock size rotors 345x28 in front and 328x20 in the rear.

I will get 2 peice rotors to save weight when these wear out, but for now these work great. I just ran at Auto Club Speedway and my previous best time was a 1.58 this time out I ran a 1.54!

Here is the video of two laps one a 1.55 and the other a 1.54


Here is a graph comparing the braking of the stock brakes versus the Rotora's:
Click image for larger version

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The Blue lines are stock and the red and black are the Rotora's. The first peak is turn 3 and you can see the red line starts a little later than the blue so i was able to wait longer, but the kicker is i was going about 10 mph faster than before when the blue line was recorded. Over 2 seconds was due to the brakes alone, the other was a slight alignment adjustmemt amd more balls on the banking.

I was able to go from stock 1.19 braking g's to 1.36 g's with the Rotora's.

I will take a picture later but I got them in red.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2009, 11:49 PM
silversprint silversprint is offline
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You sure it's just the brakes. Also the 1:58 was done in May when the weather was much warmer. Your top speed before almost every braking zone is higher in the faster lap. Also you were almost almost 10mph turn 1 and 2 .

I think you are just driving better.

Does the car have the same tires in both videos?

That's a good lap time.

Can you do a graph of speed vs time of both lap times?
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2009, 05:24 AM
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That is a decent speed (over 130 the whole time) through the banked section. Interesting track layout ... is that the permanent layout or do they have other configurations?

Are you using the stock rotors with the Rotoras? If so, who sells the caliper kit?

You don't have any serious S turns on that layout, but I was curious if you are getting any piston knock back coming out of a twisty section?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:34 AM
blau335 blau335 is offline
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Why would you do what you have with therest of your car and then put rotoras on it?
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2009, 10:32 AM
CalRick CalRick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
Why would you do what you have with therest of your car and then put rotoras on it?
For the same reason that some people put lots into their suspension, brakes and engine and then put it all on VMS wheels?
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2009, 11:00 AM
deknight deknight is offline
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Originally Posted by silversprint View Post
You sure it's just the brakes. Also the 1:58 was done in May when the weather was much warmer. Your top speed before almost every braking zone is higher in the faster lap. Also you were almost almost 10mph turn 1 and 2 .

I think you are just driving better.

Does the car have the same tires in both videos?

That's a good lap time.

Can you do a graph of speed vs time of both lap times?
For sure not all the brakes. The title was misleading my bad. I did say that just over 2 seconds were due to the brakes since my data clearly showed that. My data tells me the total time braking in May and in November and i was able to be on the brakes 2 seconds less in November.

The weather was totally perfect for sure and made a big differance, plus alignment change and better driving for a total of 4 seconds. The car just feels right to me now.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2009, 01:49 PM
blau335 blau335 is offline
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Originally Posted by CalRick View Post
For the same reason that some people put lots into their suspension, brakes and engine and then put it all on VMS wheels?
You mean VMR? Because wheels don't effect performance anywhere near as much as the rest. And VMRs are not heavy in the first place.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2009, 06:24 PM
deknight deknight is offline
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Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
Why would you do what you have with therest of your car and then put rotoras on it?
The reason I went with Rotora is that Evosport tested Stop Tech, Brembo, and Rotora brake systems on their race cars (E46 M3's) and found the Rotora 4 pot front and rear with stock rotors performed the best for them. The E46 M3 stock rotors are even smaller than the Z4 MC (unless they have the comp kit which Evosport did not) so they are very light even as a 1 peice. But my stock are bigger so I will go to a 2 piece.

Stoptech makes a two peice that will fit in front but so far i have not found a 2 peice that will fit the rear, but they are small so not a whole lot of weight to be saved, but I would like the slotted as opposed to cross drilled.

So since they tested all those setups and found the cheaper system to work better i decided i did not want to pay more. I am not convinced the Rotora perform better than the Stoptech but probably close enought to not pay $2k more for them. So please do not think I am trying to make a case that these are better than StopTech and Brembp, since I am not saying that at all. Simply that they had great results showing that the Rotoras performed really great and that was enought to sell me.

I have driven Earls car with his StopTech brakes and they felt really great.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2009, 08:02 PM
blau335 blau335 is offline
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Do you have a link to the article? And stoptech does make a 2 piece rear...
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2009, 09:59 AM
deknight deknight is offline
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Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
Do you have a link to the article? And stoptech does make a 2 piece rear...
What article are you referring to?

Here is were i found the front slotted rotors (345x28)
http://www.zeckhausen.com/StopTech/c...les.htm#Rotors

I cannot find a place that sells the rear (328x20)???? If you know where to find them please let me know.
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2009, 11:12 AM
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deknight - Are you getting any piston knock-back with the Rotora's?
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2009, 11:34 AM
deknight deknight is offline
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deknight - Are you getting any piston knock-back with the Rotora's?
No not at all. The other thing I forgot to mention was the pedal feel is so much better now. Especially on heel/toe down shifts the pedal does not go as far down so it better matches the height of the gas pedal making the throttle blips way easier!
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2009, 01:37 PM
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The HACK The HACK is offline
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Originally Posted by pal View Post
That is a decent speed (over 130 the whole time) through the banked section. Interesting track layout ... is that the permanent layout or do they have other configurations?
California Speedway can be run in multiple layouts.

This is the "Grand Am" layout, typical sports car configuration using both the front straight and NASCAR turn 2:



This is the "infield" only portion of the track. Often times Auto Club will rent out the infield portion during the week or when NASCAR is testing and using the outside track exclusively. I attended an infield only event when NASCAR was testing and it was an impressive "sight." You can't hear your own exhaust note when the Stock cars are on track.



Notice the "tip" resembling a male phallus? There's multiple ways to configure that chicane. The fastest configuration uses the shape most resembling a male pen*s.

This is the NASCAR oval. Never driven this configuration before.



Rumor has it...And I can not confirm this RIGHT NOW, but this is what the L.A. Chapter will be running NEXT YEAR in May for their Auto Club Speedway event. This is what the JGTC event 4 years ago ran. A shorter layout for sure, offering an interesting perspective through an infield access road instead of NASCAR turn 2. The rest of the lap will be similar to Grand Am layout.



These track configurations are from Auto Club Speedway's own website.

http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Seat...rack-Maps.aspx
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2009, 06:20 PM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
California Speedway can be run in multiple layouts.

This is the "Grand Am" layout, typical sports car configuration using both the front straight and NASCAR turn 2:



This is the "infield" only portion of the track. Often times Auto Club will rent out the infield portion during the week or when NASCAR is testing and using the outside track exclusively. I attended an infield only event when NASCAR was testing and it was an impressive "sight." You can't hear your own exhaust note when the Stock cars are on track.



Notice the "tip" resembling a male phallus? There's multiple ways to configure that chicane. The fastest configuration uses the shape most resembling a male pen*s.

This is the NASCAR oval. Never driven this configuration before.



Rumor has it...And I can not confirm this RIGHT NOW, but this is what the L.A. Chapter will be running NEXT YEAR in May for their Auto Club Speedway event. This is what the JGTC event 4 years ago ran. A shorter layout for sure, offering an interesting perspective through an infield access road instead of NASCAR turn 2. The rest of the lap will be similar to Grand Am layout.



These track configurations are from Auto Club Speedway's own website.

http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Seat...rack-Maps.aspx
-So BMWCCA is going to remove the signature turn from the track? That sucks

I presume they have the good sense to cone before turn 1 to force cars down onto the apron before the heavy brake zone? This is going to make car release from the pits a little more dangerous too.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2009, 06:29 PM
CalRick CalRick is offline
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That's too bad if they cut off turn 2 next time - I was looking forward to running the classic Grand Am course again since I missed it last year. Running more of the banking is what sets the course off from the other "sports car" tracks we normally run.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2009, 07:08 PM
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That's too bad if they cut off turn 2 next time - I was looking forward to running the classic Grand Am course again since I missed it last year. Running more of the banking is what sets the course off from the other "sports car" tracks we normally run.
-They would have to cut off turns 1 and 2, so the front straight would be just that - no banked turns at all.

At least Speed Ventures always runs the Grand Am course. Too bad we can't get BMWCCA instruction with such a unique track layout.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:38 PM
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I just got done watching your video Brad. Amazing improvement (cold weather or not) Weren't your times just under 2 minutes last time at Cal Speedway?

So you don't get a big head I'm now going to nitpick as much as possible...:......

Unless I am reading it wrong, the braking graph seems to indicate that you are coming off the brakes very quickly (perhaps too abruptly). Could be that you could carry more speed into turns with a smoother, longer release. Nathan from OCRC was helping me tune my brake release at their last event and very subtle changes can seriously improve corner entry and mid-corner speed.

You could safely use more track (be further out) before braking for turn 3. Although I think your turn-in point might be better than how I'm doing it. I need to check my video, which I'll post soon.

In the first lap you used a double apex for 5/6, then single apex on the next lap. Why?

I think you are turning in a little early for 7/8. Not a big deal because your speed there is very good, but you might want to try turning in a little later and a little sharper. This will give you slightly more straightaway length and a straighter line through the chicane.

If I use 2nd gear in the buttonhook I have to shift almost immediately after trackout, you carry 2nd for several seconds longer. And you have a shorter rear end ratio too, right? Could this mean that your low-speed (IE: non-aero-effected) grip isn't as good (IE: slower track-out speed), and therefore things could be improved?

I noticed that you were braking for turn 13 from 120mph at the two-cone marker, I brake from 130mph at the three-cone marker. The extra HP from ESS explains the velocity difference, obviously. I bring it up simply to point out the difference in brake points as speeds increase, because I find it interesting. If memory serves I would generally hit about 120mph back when my car was N/A and I braked between the 2 and 2 1/2 marker, to give myself a little extra cushion. It seems to me that your brake are working really well. I'll be curious to see how they work when summer rolls around.

Good job, keep sweating the details
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:47 PM
CalRick CalRick is offline
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Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-They would have to cut off turns 1 and 2, so the front straight would be just that - no banked turns at all.

At least Speed Ventures always runs the Grand Am course. Too bad we can't get BMWCCA instruction with such a unique track layout.
It's what they label as the Motorcycle course - it looks like you run thru Turn 1 down on the apron and then head into the infield before Turn 2.

Their instruction along with the unique track is most of the appeal to the event. I don't mind the chicane they put in at the entrance to Turn 1 - that's a reasonable trackschool tool to make sure everyone is on the gas thru 1 instead of someone deciding too late that they're going in too hot and jumping on the brakes at the wrong time. It's sure a whole lot more comfortable running 120+ thru the banking there than turn 8 at Willow!
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:14 PM
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It's what they label as the Motorcycle course - it looks like you run thru Turn 1 down on the apron and then head into the infield before Turn 2.
Motorcycles + banking = bad!
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:01 AM
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The HACK The HACK is offline
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Well, the CCA program is always more about instruction, and I'm sure the CIs feel that a different layout from what we're all used to driving will help the learning curve a lot more than driving the same layout again for the 8th year in a row. Especially with the new advanced "A" program that's being implemented this year, the goal, besides an eye and a stepping stone toward racing school, is to rapidly ramp up the learning curve of the typical "A" students.

Lots of organizations run the Grand Am course. Very few use the Motorcycle layout. This will force some of the more advanced "A" students to stop driving by muscle memory. Anyone can drive a fast lap once they've done it enough times, whether they have the visual skills or not. The goal here, is to throw different configurations on a track that they may be familiar with to force them to transport that skill to different tracks and different environments.

But the prospect of driving the motorcycle layout intrigues me, to say the least. If I want to drive the Grand Am layout I can always sign up for SpeedVentures or NASA. But we'll see if the fact that we're doing the motorcycle layout turns any of our potential customers off. The fact that we sold out WSIR and AutoClub Speedway in this tough economy this year I think gave us a little leeway to "experiment" for the next event. And frankly, with the numbers of quality organizations competing for the same dollar, I believe we'll need to continue to adjust and "innovate" in order to thrive.

Just my not so humble opinion.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:08 AM
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I like the chicane in your last layout HACK. Looks like a high speed bus-stop kinda turn where you clip the apex coming in and get back on gas while holding steering in a nice smooth turn that is very fast. I am thinking of the bust stop at Watkins Glen that is one of my fav turns ...
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:17 PM
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The HACK The HACK is offline
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I like the chicane in your last layout HACK. Looks like a high speed bus-stop kinda turn where you clip the apex coming in and get back on gas while holding steering in a nice smooth turn that is very fast. I am thinking of the bust stop at Watkins Glen that is one of my fav turns ...
What you don't see is the elevation change on the map. This turn is much harder than it looks (I assume since I haven't driven the config). You're coming off of a significant BANK on the front part of the oval and that chicane runs right through the transition between the banking and the flat portion of the apron.

In the past we've ran the Grand Am course along with the chicane designed for the motorcycles and it's a fun exercise in vision, smoothness, and an absolute commitment to the right pedal (the chicane is hard to navigate without the foot buried on the gas, but the fear of the cement filled cone makes it harder to commit to full throttle). Last year we ran the Grand Am as is sans the chicane and while it was fun to go balls out through turn 2, turns out not many of the students were quite comfortable doing it anyway and very few were doing turn 2 like it's meant to be done. I was mentally checking the exit speed to 2 and most were right within 2-5 mph of typical exit speed WITH the chicane. The only difference is not having to brake at the end of the "straight".

Having been brought up through the BMW CCA program, I'm rather non-commital wrt which Grand Am configuration we ran...But given the success of the last event at Auto Club Speedway I've got to say, running the banked turn 2 unmolested seems to have a big appeal.

That, and the Club Race was easier to manage sans the chicane.
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"Bench racing" about track times driven by professionals are like a bunch of nerds arguing which Princess Leia is hotter, the slave Leia or the no-bra jail-bait Leia. No matter how compelling your argument is, the plain and simple fact is, none of you will EVER get to hit that.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:23 PM
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But given the success of the last event at Auto Club Speedway I've got to say, running the banked turn 2 unmolested seems to have a big appeal.
I can understand why this would be appealing to speed junkies. I have been going regularly to the Pocono Long course here where we do the NASCAR Turn 1 and 2 with me hitting around 152-154 mph on the back straight ... exiting the steep banked turn 1 is the key to a good top speed run on the back straight which I can usually enter at 110 after braking from 135+ (no brass b*lls yet) and exit around 115-120'ish.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:12 PM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Well, the CCA program is always more about instruction, and I'm sure the CIs feel that a different layout from what we're all used to driving will help the learning curve a lot more than driving the same layout again for the 8th year in a row. Especially with the new advanced "A" program that's being implemented this year, the goal, besides an eye and a stepping stone toward racing school, is to rapidly ramp up the learning curve of the typical "A" students.

Lots of organizations run the Grand Am course. Very few use the Motorcycle layout. This will force some of the more advanced "A" students to stop driving by muscle memory. Anyone can drive a fast lap once they've done it enough times, whether they have the visual skills or not. The goal here, is to throw different configurations on a track that they may be familiar with to force them to transport that skill to different tracks and different environments.

But the prospect of driving the motorcycle layout intrigues me, to say the least. If I want to drive the Grand Am layout I can always sign up for SpeedVentures or NASA. But we'll see if the fact that we're doing the motorcycle layout turns any of our potential customers off. The fact that we sold out WSIR and AutoClub Speedway in this tough economy this year I think gave us a little leeway to "experiment" for the next event. And frankly, with the numbers of quality organizations competing for the same dollar, I believe we'll need to continue to adjust and "innovate" in order to thrive.

Just my not so humble opinion.
-A valid point. I can't say that I'm not curious about the motorcycle layout too. And I can always run the Roval with SpeedVentures as I did two weekends ago. I really enjoy running the same track as the pros use, to get a feel for what they do. But a "new" track is a new track, and worth a look. Hell, even Cal's infield course was actually quite fun when I ran it earlier this year.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:40 PM
CalRick CalRick is offline
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Mein Auto: 2007 Z4MC & 95M3 Tracktoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-A valid point. I can't say that I'm not curious about the motorcycle layout too. And I can always run the Roval with SpeedVentures as I did two weekends ago. I really enjoy running the same track as the pros use, to get a feel for what they do. But a "new" track is a new track, and worth a look. Hell, even Cal's infield course was actually quite fun when I ran it earlier this year.
A new layout is always a nice thing to explore; it's just a shame that it bypasses the defining feature of the facility - it's like bypassing the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca. I think that an outfit like SpeedVentures can more readily experiment with this since they run there several times a year rather than just an annual visit like BMWCCA does. If they ran there twice during the year, like GGC does at Infineon, that would make more sense to try the alternate layout on one of those visits. I wouldn't mind trying the NASCAR course at Infineon sometime even though it loses some of the track's character by skipping the Carousel, but I wouldn't want that to be the only visit during the year.
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