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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #101  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:30 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Just found this out from the E46 guys:
- fuel system cleaners/gas additives - worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanneba View Post
Not ALL Top Tier gasoline use Techron, other gasoline companies can use any additive that provides the top tier requirements.
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

From Red Line S1 Material data sheet:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner MSDS.pdf

30 - 50% PolyEther Amine
1-10% Isooctanol - TLV- None established CAS # 104-76-7
5-20% Aliphatic Naphtha - TWA - 100 ppm - CAS # 64742-88-7


Chevron TECHRONŽ Concentrate PLUS
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...docFormat=HTML

SECTION 2 COMPOSITION/ INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Code:
COMPONENTS                       CAS NUMBER       AMOUNT
Distillates, hydrotreated light  64742-47-8        30 - 60 %weight
01154100-5179P                  Trade secret        10 - 30 %weight
Stoddard solvent                  8052-41-3           15 - 40 %weight
Solvent naphtha (petroleum) 64742-95-6          3 - 7 %weight
Benzene, 1,2,4-trimethyl-      95-63-6              1 - 5 %weight
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  #102  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:41 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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To keep the technical information together, here was my response to the above just now ...


Quote:
*******> ********>
Originally Posted by shanneba
Not ALL Top Tier gasoline use Techron

Interesting.

From one hand, that certainly makes 'logical' sense: If they can meet the specs, why would it matter if they use polyether amines (PEA) or not (especially since there's a possibility PEA is nothing more than 'soap for gas' which other chemicals can do just the same).

However, we have a letter, apparently verbatim from Chevron, which says (in part):
Quote:
*******> ********>
Note; Shell and all other Top Tier gasolines contain Techron's active ingredient, PEA.

Quote:
*******> ********>
Originally Posted by shanneba
Red Line S1 Material data sheet
30 - 50% PolyEther Amine


Ah! Very interesting.

So, fundamentally, they're both the same stuff!
Quote:
*******> ********>
The MDS (material data sheet) apparently lists Techron contents as common solvents, most of which (if not all) are already in gasolines. Techron and Techron concentrate appears to be (almost exactly) the same fluid, except in 10x differences in concentration. Both appear to be 68% your basic petroleum-based solvent (i.e., methyl cyclohexane, aka naptha; Toluene, three different isomers of xylene, and ethyl benzene) ... and 32% polyether amines, which is a detergent for use in non-aqueous systems.

So fundamentally, it seems, at least upon first inspection, they're both essentially the same thing (so why would anyone prefer one over the other)?
  • Bottle of Techron concentrate = 32% polyether amines
  • Bottle of Red Line S1 ~= 40% polyether amines
Since they're actually 'slightly' different, we could, if we really cared, look at final concentrations (as the non-active ingredient 'filler' is also essentially the same thing in both), if that matters to you:
  • Chevron gas is 400 ppm PEA (references here).
  • It jumps to 4,000 ppm PEA (same reference) with the concentrate.
However, I doubt the math works out to much of a difference with the Redline S1 (do you think otherwise?).
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  #103  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:52 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
Here is an answer from Chevron ...
Note; Shell and all other Top Tier gasolines contain Techron's active ingredient, PEA.
Hi Chiefwej,
Is that letter verbatim?

Especially the part about the PEA being in ALL top-tier gasolines?

Can you provide a bit more background on that very interesting letter.
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  #104  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:46 PM
Karbon Karbon is offline
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Just wanted to add that I had a sticking gas gauge about 3 weeks ago.
I put in a bottle of TECHRON and 150 miles later the gauge unstuck and it works flawlessly now.

I wouldn't use it ALL the time, but every couple thousand miles I think would be the best to keep everything running and working smoothly.
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  #105  
Old 03-24-2011, 08:39 PM
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edmonem edmonem is offline
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I put a bottle in about 2 weeks ago. I said i would post if I noticed any difference... Well my gas mileage went from 21.3 to 21.5. Haha much but it did change...


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  #106  
Old 03-24-2011, 09:13 PM
bobdmac bobdmac is offline
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Nice! Put in another bottle and see if goes up another 0.2 mpg!
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  #107  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:55 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmonem View Post
my gas mileage went from 21.3 to 21.5
For the life of me, I can never figure out how anyone can get better than 5% tolerance on mpg calculations!

- What is the tolerance (i.e., accuracy) of our typical miles per gallon (MPG) calculations (1)
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  #108  
Old 03-25-2011, 12:11 AM
bobdmac bobdmac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
...What is the tolerance (i.e., accuracy) of our typical miles per gallon (MPG) calculations (1)
I can't speak for others, but I calculate mileage when I refuel. I stop filling the tank as soon as the pump automatically shuts off. This gives me a pretty consistent fuel level. So if I put in 15.9 gallons, I write that down and divide it into the miles that have accumulated since I reset the odometer at the last fill up. Depending on how much I care, I either first round up the gallons to the nearest whole number or I use the decimal. I then calculate the result to the nearest tenth.

I don't really have any use for trying to refine it beyond that. As long as my mileage is bouncing around within a mile per gallon or so, I don't worry about it. However, if it drops off steadily over a few fill ups, or if it falls precipitously, then I know I have a problem.
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  #109  
Old 03-25-2011, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdmac View Post
As long as my mileage is bouncing around within a mile per gallon or so, I don't worry about it
I don't disagree. I can't imagine getting better than 1 mpg tolerance on the calculations.

Even the EPA test drive, which is repeated under rigorous test conditions, seems to get no better than about 4% or 5% tolerance in the resulting numbers (which, for an 18+ gallon tank is about a mile per gallon).
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  #110  
Old 04-14-2011, 02:25 PM
barroyo barroyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporarySanity View Post
I'm not against spending a few bucks to see if it makes a difference in my car. If the manufacture made all kinds of miracle claims but was trying to sell the stuff for say $50 for a 20oz bottle then I would say yes, snake oil. If I can't afford to spend $10 to $15 on my BMW for trying something that is supposed to be good for it and it doesn't make a difference then I shouldn't be driving a BMW. I don't like to throw money away needlessly but I don't mind wasting $15 on an experiment if the stuff doesn't do a thing.
i totally agree with you im some way .. but we shouldn't be doing EXPERIMENTS the company should provide real results .

for 5 or for 50 bucks shouldn't lie ... dont you guys think ..

love the product .. will buy more soon
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  #111  
Old 04-14-2011, 05:23 PM
jordan16j jordan16j is offline
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I liked Techron when I tried it. Got an extra .5 MPG on my BMW and it does seem to accelerate a little more smoothly now, too. Similar results on my other car, a Chevy Malibu. If you read the reviews on Amazon there are a large number of people who support the gas guage fix, too. I'd say it's worth buying and putting a bottle through every so often. Autozone had 12oz size buy one get one a few weeks ago.
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  #112  
Old 05-11-2011, 08:51 AM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdmac View Post
I can't speak for others, but I calculate mileage when I refuel. I stop filling the tank as soon as the pump automatically shuts off. This gives me a pretty consistent fuel level. So if I put in 15.9 gallons, I write that down and divide it into the miles that have accumulated since I reset the odometer at the last fill up. Depending on how much I care, I either first round up the gallons to the nearest whole number or I use the decimal. I then calculate the result to the nearest tenth.

I don't really have any use for trying to refine it beyond that. As long as my mileage is bouncing around within a mile per gallon or so, I don't worry about it. However, if it drops off steadily over a few fill ups, or if it falls precipitously, then I know I have a problem.
I do it the same way, as often as possible using the same pump to reduce inconsistencies.

BUT:

I use the mileage from my Garmin. If you've ever compared speeds between the speedo and a GPS, you know why.
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  #113  
Old 05-11-2011, 08:54 AM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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Does anyone have an idea of exactly what kind of polyetheramine is used in the cleaner? See this for examples:

http://www.huntsman.com/performance_...theramines.pdf

I work for a chemical company, and usually, companies like huntsman will send us samples of a product if we request it; anything from a 32oz bottle to a 5gal pail.
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  #114  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:29 AM
franka franka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EthirtyMine View Post
Does anyone have an idea of exactly what kind of polyetheramine is used in the cleaner? See this for examples:

http://www.huntsman.com/performance_...theramines.pdf

I work for a chemical company, and usually, companies like huntsman will send us samples of a product if we request it; anything from a 32oz bottle to a 5gal pail.
Ok, nice spec sheet, but where are you going with this? Seriously and w/o trying to start an arguement.

Are you trying to compare to Tech or just what is the objective here?

Thanks
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  #115  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:14 PM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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I think people who have fuel gauge problem (my brother in law included!) are people who consistently run the gas tank below 1/4 to almost empty all the time.

The fuel level sensor is now exposed and when gasoline evaporates, it leaves behind residues which are sticky ---> failed fuel level sensor.
A bottle of Techron should help because it seems to dissolves this residue.

Another way to avoid this issue is to fill up the gas as soon as you hit 1/4 tank.
Also, this is good for the fuel pump too.
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  #116  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:33 PM
franka franka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
I think people who have fuel gauge problem (my brother in law included!) are people who consistently run the gas tank below 1/4 to almost empty all the time.

The fuel level sensor is now exposed and when gasoline evaporates, it leaves behind residues which are sticky ---> failed fuel level sensor.
A bottle of Techron should help because it seems to dissolves this residue.

Another way to avoid this issue is to fill up the gas as soon as you hit 1/4 tank.
Also, this is good for the fuel pump too.
That sounds completely reasonable. So maybe just a tank or two of Shell Super can do the same thing.
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  #117  
Old 05-11-2011, 12:36 PM
hapollo hapollo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
Ok, nice spec sheet, but where are you going with this? Seriously and w/o trying to start an arguement.

Are you trying to compare to Tech or just what is the objective here?

Thanks
My guess is he is asking. If the polyetheramine that I get for free in 32oz and 5 gal pail sizes are the same chemical makeup of the polyetheramine in Techron; can I simply pour some if it into my tank and get the same results without having to go out and buy Techron.

Problem I see is Techron is a proprietary blend of chemicals. Getting detailed specs to compare to the other product will prove difficult unless you have access to a gas-liquid chrometer or mass spectrometer.
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  #118  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:27 PM
franka franka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hapollo View Post
My guess is he is asking. If the polyetheramine that I get for free in 32oz and 5 gal pail sizes are the same chemical makeup of the polyetheramine in Techron; can I simply pour some if it into my tank and get the same results without having to go out and buy Techron.

Problem I see is Techron is a proprietary blend of chemicals. Getting detailed specs to compare to the other product will prove difficult unless you have access to a gas-liquid chrometer or mass spectrometer.

Thanks man.
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  #119  
Old 05-11-2011, 02:58 PM
vetaldj vetaldj is offline
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I put this in and I found about 2 more miles per gallon, from about 11 to 13 mp/g. I have 100% city commute at ~15mph with lots of traffic lights. Now I'm in the middle of tune up to get at least what passport says...
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  #120  
Old 05-11-2011, 03:12 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vetaldj View Post
from about 11 to 13 mp/g
You do realize that a zillion other things would change your gas mileage and that you can't get closer to something around 5% accuracy in even the best case, right?
- What is the tolerance (i.e., accuracy) of our typical miles per gallon (MPG) calculations (1)

But, at least you didn't quote mpg to the nth decimal place like some people do!
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  #121  
Old 05-12-2011, 07:24 PM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hapollo View Post
My guess is he is asking. If the polyetheramine that I get for free in 32oz and 5 gal pail sizes are the same chemical makeup of the polyetheramine in Techron; can I simply pour some if it into my tank and get the same results without having to go out and buy Techron.

Problem I see is Techron is a proprietary blend of chemicals. Getting detailed specs to compare to the other product will prove difficult unless you have access to a gas-liquid chrometer or mass spectrometer.
That's precisely it. Why pay what could well be exorbitant prices for a diluted product if you can get the active ingredient without going through a middle man?

While there is something to be said for proprietary information, often that label makes it first to be cracked, with the end result being similar in mechanism and efficacy but just different enough to make winning a suit a dicey proposition.

Or often times, it's a commonplace substance with a novel application; a fortunate accident.
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  #122  
Old 05-12-2011, 07:37 PM
franka franka is offline
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Try it and report.
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  #123  
Old 05-12-2011, 09:18 PM
BillAngel BillAngel is offline
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One quick post......
The quality of the gasoline also has to do with the age of the gas station (tanks).
Old gas stations probably do not have new modern tanks that do a way better job with keeping out condensation.
Also please do not put gas in your tank when the tanker truck is filling up the gas station.
There are alot of debris that get stirred up by the tanker filling the large tank.

This was explained to me by a customer of mine. This gentleman is an independant fuel quality analysis surveyor , who by state mandate
tested the amount of water and other contaminates in the tanks of gas stations.

Not all gas stations are equal. The gas in the chevron down the street may not be as good as the chevron across town.

.......I use 44k Fuel system cleaner by BG products.
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  #124  
Old 05-13-2011, 04:42 AM
franka franka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillAngel View Post
.......I use 44k Fuel system cleaner by BG products.
Why that one and what does it do that others don't?
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  #125  
Old 05-13-2011, 09:32 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillAngel View Post
Not all gas stations are equal. The gas in the chevron down the street may not be as good as the chevron across town
Good points.

I should say, ahead of time, I am making all the 'mistakes' described in this thread; so I'm a perfect test case for the 'common knowledge' that my (bad) fuel habits will cause a premature death to both my fuel-level sending units, to my fuel pump, and even to my engine!

For example:
  • I generally buy the lowest-octane fuel I can find
    • Yea, I know about "tier 1" & what it says on the gas cap; but I still use 87 AKI
    • I drive sedately and let the knock sensors retard my timing if they feel like it (never 'heard' a knock yet but they can be sub audible)
  • I almost always use Costco gas (except when really really low or when traveling)
    • Once in that long line, during the hot middle of the day, if the fuel truck is there, I still get the gas
    • You 'can' get it at the cool gas 6am slot where there's no line & no shiny truck (but then you can't shop)
  • I almost always let the fuel level get down get really really low (way past the yellow light)
    • I found I have 'way' more miles than 31 when it warns you of that
    • And, I can go for longer than I would have thought on the dash dash (- -)
  • So, every once in a while, I am forced to use the Chevron across town
    • The price is 25 cents more (or so) per gallon than Costco
    • And, the stuff burns just was well (from my personal perspective) as Costco does
I'm sure almost everyone here will wanna flame me (or show me the error of my ways) ... but the 'real' proof of my errors will be a sad sob story sometime in the future that my fuel sending units need Techron to clean them or that my fuel pump met its early predicted demise, or worse yet, that my journals or bearings are damaged from pinging or that my valves or fuel injectors are crudded up from the lack of Chevron-level polyetheramines in my incoming fuel mixture.

Until then ... consider me yet another experiment in all the things your mom told you not to do!

EDIT: And, I forgot, after losing my fuel filler cap doing an EVAP error test, I've been driving around for two months sans any fuel filler cap (I wonder what 'that' does to the evap system!).


Last edited by bluebee; 05-13-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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