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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #26  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
very cool. can we see the whole thing?

are you a dealer tech?
I am not a tech but know people who are.

I used to be a mechanic and and am a bit of a track junkie though that has slowed down for me because of other obligations.

Last edited by Jim E.; 01-04-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:20 AM
majorm majorm is offline
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I know BMW prohibits using any diesel which is more than 5% biodiesel. While it sounds like these additives make sense, is there any possibility they could affect the warranty? Does anyone know if BMW has any specific recommendations regarding these additives? I called the service department where I bought my car, and the guy told me not to use it for warranty reasons, but I suspect he just doesn't know anything about diesels (like me).
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  #28  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
The file is too large to attach. I'll see what I can do. I am not a tech but know people who are.

I used to be a mechanic and and am a bit of a track junkie though that has slowed down for me because of other obligations.
Jim,

I can host the file if you can get it to me. PM me and we can work out the specifics.
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  #29  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:28 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by majorm View Post
I know BMW prohibits using any diesel which is more than 5% biodiesel. While it sounds like these additives make sense, is there any possibility they could affect the warranty? Does anyone know if BMW has any specific recommendations regarding these additives? I called the service department where I bought my car, and the guy told me not to use it for warranty reasons, but I suspect he just doesn't know anything about diesels (like me).
What does the manual say about additives (besides B5)?
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  #30  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:32 AM
bmmw bmmw is offline
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Understanding the ULSD here is less lubricate, but on page 116 of the BMW electronic manual, it says "Do not add additives, including gasoline; otherwise, engine damage may occur". This is for BMW advanced diesel and I believe that it is aimed to US drivers not Europeans.
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  #31  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:41 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by bmmw View Post
Understanding the ULSD here is less lubricate, but on page 116 of the BMW electronic manual, it says "Do not add additives, including gasoline; otherwise, engine damage may occur". This is for BMW advanced diesel and I believe that it is aimed to US drivers not Europeans.
another reason to take them up on that offer to use up to B5
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2010, 12:25 PM
magbarn magbarn is online now
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Originally Posted by bmmw View Post
Understanding the ULSD here is less lubricate, but on page 116 of the BMW electronic manual, it says "Do not add additives, including gasoline; otherwise, engine damage may occur". This is for BMW advanced diesel and I believe that it is aimed to US drivers not Europeans.
I dunno, I'm pretty sure the d here uses the same injectors as the euro model. BMW is notorious for not properly designing their drivetrain's for USA's notorious crappy fuel. Nikasil & HPFP come to mind.

So, I'm going to buy this stuff at the local wallyworld and add it to each tank. Kinda PITA for though. One of the reasons, I decided to go diesel was to avoid the Ethanol ADDITIVES that .gov mandates, and now even diesel has fuel issues!
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:00 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
Here's some good reading about diesel fuel.

Happy reading,
Jim
And how can we get the attachment?
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:09 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by bmmw View Post
Understanding the ULSD here is less lubricate, but on page 116 of the BMW electronic manual, it says "Do not add additives, including gasoline; otherwise, engine damage may occur". This is for BMW advanced diesel and I believe that it is aimed to US drivers not Europeans.
Sometimes, BMW is not the final word. Since U.S. ULSD is arguably lubricity-challenged, a conscientious owner needs to think a bit outside the box that BMW has placed U.S. owners into. Powerservice (I am using them for discussion purposes, even though I decided to use their aftermarket additive) provides a number of assertions about how their product complies with the ULSD specification and will not harm the engine or emission control components. If Powerservice was new to the market, I might be a bit skeptical of the claims. However, they have been around for quite a while and are well-regarded by owners/operators of diesel cars and trucks. In the final analysis, I chose to ignore BMW's warnings and use Powerservice mixed with Chevron diesel.
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2010, 01:24 AM
Norm37 Norm37 is offline
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Marvel Mystery Oil has developed a diesel additive.

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/inde...e/marveldiesel

Got this from this other thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=423613
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2010, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
BMW is notorious for not properly designing their drivetrain's for USA's notorious crappy fuel. Nikasil & HPFP come to mind.
Nikasil?

Show me....
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  #37  
Old 01-05-2010, 06:25 AM
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Nikasil?

Show me....
Do a google search for: "wikipedia bmw 5 series nikasil problems"

first link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_(E34)

scroll down to the M60 engine and read.

Dig a little more and voila: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M60...ikasil_problem

happy reading.
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  #38  
Old 01-05-2010, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
What does the manual say about additives (besides B5)?
BMW acknowledges the need for diesel additives and even explains the necessity of having these additives included in the end product by the refiners of the fuel.

My guess is they don't want owners owners to add anything because of possible EPA issues that they may have to deal with.

It does not mean you can't or should not use an additive. For example, BMW "requires" the use 51 cetane for the new diesel but at the same time acknowledges that most diesel fuel available to us is around 45 and that 40 is a minumum. This is a contradiction since the only way to get anywhere near 51 is for the owner to add a cetane boost.

Odd if you ask me!
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  #39  
Old 01-05-2010, 09:42 AM
dMabuse dMabuse is offline
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The only thing I don't understand with the Spicer report is that they used an untreated, totally dry sample of ULSD as their baseline. They acknowledge that their untreated sample was a "worst case scenario" of getting fuel that had somehow bypassed the additive process, but at the pump 99.9% of the time you are buying ULSD that has had some treatement put into it already. But they never tested treated ULSD. The Spicer report clearly acknowledged this. What whould have been helpful is if they had tested the treated ULSD straight from the pump from several popular fueling stations.
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2010, 09:44 AM
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That power service product is interesting to me.

Anyone running it? Notice any MPG improvements? How do you like it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm37 View Post
Marvel Mystery Oil has developed a diesel additive.

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/inde...e/marveldiesel

Got this from this other thread.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=423613
It did horrible in the tests linked in the first post and is not ULSD compatible so should NOT be used in the d.
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  #41  
Old 01-05-2010, 09:56 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
Do a google search for: "wikipedia bmw 5 series nikasil problems"
Dig a little more and voila: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M60...ikasil_problem
Interestingly, I bought a '81 BMW CS100 [bike] off the showroom floor - having taken the cyl's off for inspection about 3K mi back, no problem - looks new. Nikasil.

Gas bought south of Philadelphia, then San Francisco area with, of course, field trips here and there.
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  #42  
Old 01-05-2010, 10:01 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by Grentz View Post
...
It did horrible in the tests linked in the first post and is not ULSD compatible so should NOT be used in the d.
The product tested by Spicer was the original Marvel Mystery Oil. The link Norm37 provided was for a diesel additive made by Marvel that claims to be ULSD compliant.
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  #43  
Old 01-05-2010, 10:13 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by dMabuse View Post
The only thing I don't understand with the Spicer report is that they used an untreated, totally dry sample of ULSD as their baseline. They acknowledge that their untreated sample was a "worst case scenario" of getting fuel that had somehow bypassed the additive process, but at the pump 99.9% of the time you are buying ULSD that has had some treatement put into it already. But they never tested treated ULSD. The Spicer report clearly acknowledged this. What whould have been helpful is if they had tested the treated ULSD straight from the pump from several popular fueling stations.
I have the same criticism of the Spicer tests. Since we are always using additives with diesel that has been treated at the delivery terminal, it would be best to know how the two types of additives interact.
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  #44  
Old 01-05-2010, 10:18 AM
montr montr is offline
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For my car, I am using either Power Service or Stanadyne Performance formula (http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=74). These products have been around for some time, are ULSD compliant and have been used by many Mercedes and VW diesel users. They are available from small container to 55 gals drum for fleet users.
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  #45  
Old 01-07-2010, 06:46 AM
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I was able to get a solid answer from BMW on it. Basically the fuel injection manufacturers are trying to keep themselves out warranty issues and many produce their own additives.

"BMW, as the vehicle manufacturer, is responsible for certification, compliance, durability, and performance. We must certify the vehicle for at least 10 years and 120,000 miles. The fuel used for
diesel certification is EPA-regulated Tier 2 fuel and must meet certain minimum requirements. If there was a need for an additive, it would have shown itself during that process. Introduction of
additives (except our recommended diesel exhaust fluid) may cause problems with our catalysts, etc. and cause in-use problems."

from Dave Buchko of BMWNA

Full write up:
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  #46  
Old 01-07-2010, 07:01 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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BMW is rolling the dice. If they are right, then your fuel injection system components will last 120,001 miles

here is an excerpt from the Worldwide Fuel Charter provided on this thread by montr
(my comments are in [])

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 49



LUBRICITY



The lubricating components of the diesel fuel are believed to be the heavier hydrocarbons and polar fuel
compounds. Diesel fuel pumps, without an external lubrication system, rely on the lubricating properties
of diesel fuel to ensure proper operation.
Refining processes to remove sulphur tend to simultaneously reduce diesel fuel components that provide
natural lubricity. As diesel fuel sulphur levels decrease, the risk of inadequate lubricity also increases;
however, poor lubricity has been observed even in diesel fuels with very high sulphur levels. Inexpensive
additives can be used instead of changing the refining process to achieve the desired lubricity level.




Influence of Lubricity on Pump Wear



Inadequate lubricity can result in increased tailpipe emissions, excessive pump wear and, in some cases,
catastrophic failure. Concerns over problems experienced with fuels with poor lubricity led to a significant
international collaboration between oil companies, OEMs, additive companies and pump manufacturers to
develop a test method and performance limit for fuel lubricity. The resultant method, the High Frequency
Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) procedure, is a bench test that provides good correlation to measured pump effects.
Figure 16 shows the correlation between actual pump wear (measured by Bosch) and HFRR measured
wear scar diameter. Bosch's rating scale describes 'normal wear' as less than 3.5(which corresponds to a
nominal HFRR Wear Scar Diameter of 400 micron[corrected]). With a Bosch wear rating of 4 [425 micron?], the pump will have
decreased endurance, and ratings above 7 [540 micron?] indicate potential fatal breakdown.





take a gander at Figure 16 on the bottom of page 49 of the document.

US fuel is not required to protect your pump
It looks like the only solution OK with BMW is biodiesel <5%.

Last edited by d geek; 01-07-2010 at 07:05 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-07-2010, 07:51 AM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
BMW is rolling the dice. If they are right, then your fuel injection system components will last 120,001 miles

here is an excerpt from the Worldwide Fuel Charter provided on this thread by montr
(my comments are in [])

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 49



LUBRICITY



The lubricating components of the diesel fuel are believed to be the heavier hydrocarbons and polar fuel
compounds. Diesel fuel pumps, without an external lubrication system, rely on the lubricating properties
of diesel fuel to ensure proper operation.
Refining processes to remove sulphur tend to simultaneously reduce diesel fuel components that provide
natural lubricity. As diesel fuel sulphur levels decrease, the risk of inadequate lubricity also increases;
however, poor lubricity has been observed even in diesel fuels with very high sulphur levels. Inexpensive
additives can be used instead of changing the refining process to achieve the desired lubricity level.




Influence of Lubricity on Pump Wear



Inadequate lubricity can result in increased tailpipe emissions, excessive pump wear and, in some cases,
catastrophic failure. Concerns over problems experienced with fuels with poor lubricity led to a significant
international collaboration between oil companies, OEMs, additive companies and pump manufacturers to
develop a test method and performance limit for fuel lubricity. The resultant method, the High Frequency
Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) procedure, is a bench test that provides good correlation to measured pump effects.
Figure 16 shows the correlation between actual pump wear (measured by Bosch) and HFRR measured
wear scar diameter. Bosch's rating scale describes 'normal wear' as less than 3.5(which corresponds to a
nominal HFRR Wear Scar Diameter of 400 micron[corrected]). With a Bosch wear rating of 4 [425 micron?], the pump will have
decreased endurance, and ratings above 7 [540 micron?] indicate potential fatal breakdown.





take a gander at Figure 16 on the bottom of page 49 of the document.

US fuel is not required to protect your pump
It looks like the only solution OK with BMW is biodiesel <5%.
D Geek- While I see your point, the one glaring issue is that is dated 2006 and the manufacturers themselves have used even higher wear numbers in their recommendations. Advances in metallurgy and emissions play a big part in this, not just the lubricity of a fuel.

In all honesty I rarely expect anything except the actual engine on the car to last longer than 10 years 120k miles (products have a usable life), but if additives effect the emissions systems that is going to be an even pricier fix than a $325 fuel pump- as well as the fact the additives much cost much more than that over 125k miles, no?

I was interested in this once a reader brought it to my attention but then it faded as if they can say it will last 125k then who cares since in the end it will be a fuel pump- these are not diesels of old, not cast iron, not mechanical pumps so things are different and much of this documentation does not even address that. If there is a 2009 study done with a modern (newer advances than 2006) piezo injected diesel I would be interested but this stuff just does not support anything moving forward in my opinion. The fuels have even changed.

Like I said; in the end it comes down to the consumers' choice but to me it is no longer a concern that BMW overlooked this.
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Last edited by mapezzul; 01-07-2010 at 08:03 AM.
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  #48  
Old 01-07-2010, 09:11 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
D Geek- While I see your point, the one glaring issue is that is dated 2006 and the manufacturers themselves have used even higher wear numbers in their recommendations. Advances in metallurgy and emissions play a big part in this, not just the lubricity of a fuel.

...if additives effect the emissions systems that is going to be an even pricier fix than a $325 fuel pump- as well as the fact the additives much cost much more than that over 125k miles, no?

I was interested in this once a reader brought it to my attention but then it faded as if they can say it will last 125k then who cares since in the end it will be a fuel pump- these are not diesels of old, not cast iron, not mechanical pumps so things are different and much of this documentation does not even address that. If there is a 2009 study done with a modern (newer advances than 2006) piezo injected diesel I would be interested but this stuff just does not support anything moving forward in my opinion. The fuels have even changed.

Like I said; in the end it comes down to the consumers' choice but to me it is no longer a concern that BMW overlooked this.
Please elaborate on what i bolded above. I do not understand what you mean.

It is very easy to find additives that are certified for use with modern diesel emmissions equipment. I'd guess the cost of these to be around $0.5/tank. Much less than $325 over 125K mi. (Where did you get the $325 number from, BTW?) My personal choice is to use ~3% biodiesel for a lubricity additive. Note that this would be OK with BMW.

The common rail pump is mechanical, and the moving parts inside a piezo injector would have very close tolerance and are only lubricated by the fuel, so i don't agree that lubricity is a non-issue in modern diesels (which were on the scene before 2006, BTW).

ULSD has been on the scene since 2006. Most likely the only changes to the fuel have been tweaking the additives. If you run a fuel distribution terminal, one of your goals toward profitiability would be to dial in your additives so you can maximize your profits. I'm guessing that the fuel today is less safe than it was in 2006, assuming they erred on the side of using more additives than necessary when 15ppm sulfur fuel replaced 500ppm.

The Europeans have a 460 micron MAX wear scar rating for a reason. If it were not so, they would not go to the extra expense of acheiving that.

Most diesel owners expect to get MUCH more than 125K mi out of their cars . I think anyone who pays $40K or more would expect this, don't you?
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  #49  
Old 01-07-2010, 11:08 AM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
Please elaborate on what i bolded above. I do not understand what you mean.

It is very easy to find additives that are certified for use with modern diesel emmissions equipment. I'd guess the cost of these to be around $0.5/tank. Much less than $325 over 125K mi. (Where did you get the $325 number from, BTW?) My personal choice is to use ~3% biodiesel for a lubricity additive. Note that this would be OK with BMW.

The common rail pump is mechanical, and the moving parts inside a piezo injector would have very close tolerance and are only lubricated by the fuel, so i don't agree that lubricity is a non-issue in modern diesels (which were on the scene before 2006, BTW).

ULSD has been on the scene since 2006. Most likely the only changes to the fuel have been tweaking the additives. If you run a fuel distribution terminal, one of your goals toward profitiability would be to dial in your additives so you can maximize your profits. I'm guessing that the fuel today is less safe than it was in 2006, assuming they erred on the side of using more additives than necessary when 15ppm sulfur fuel replaced 500ppm.

The Europeans have a 460 micron MAX wear scar rating for a reason. If it were not so, they would not go to the extra expense of acheiving that.

Most diesel owners expect to get MUCH more than 125K mi out of their cars . I think anyone who pays $40K or more would expect this, don't you?
The piezo injectors function with their own built in lubricity and are not solely metal on metal so it is not the same, the new pumps are similar as well. I am attaching a PDF with the images of BMWs system.... I have been through the training on this and lubricity never came up as an issue in the US they had to overcome. As for using BIO I am on board with that, just not buying some of the additives that are put in the tank individually, no idea what that will do to the SCR system (DEF mixed with additives = unknown and additives have not been extensively tested on these new systems). The $325 came from the price of a pump... as that is the only damage you discussed.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf dieselpiezo.pdf (916.2 KB, 153 views)
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Last edited by mapezzul; 01-07-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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  #50  
Old 01-07-2010, 11:09 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
Please elaborate on what i bolded above. I do not understand what you mean.

It is very easy to find additives that are certified for use with modern diesel emmissions equipment. I'd guess the cost of these to be around $0.5/tank. Much less than $325 over 125K mi. (Where did you get the $325 number from, BTW?) My personal choice is to use ~3% biodiesel for a lubricity additive. Note that this would be OK with BMW.

The common rail pump is mechanical, and the moving parts inside a piezo injector would have very close tolerance and are only lubricated by the fuel, so i don't agree that lubricity is a non-issue in modern diesels (which were on the scene before 2006, BTW).

ULSD has been on the scene since 2006. Most likely the only changes to the fuel have been tweaking the additives. If you run a fuel distribution terminal, one of your goals toward profitiability would be to dial in your additives so you can maximize your profits. I'm guessing that the fuel today is less safe than it was in 2006, assuming they erred on the side of using more additives than necessary when 15ppm sulfur fuel replaced 500ppm.

The Europeans have a 460 micron MAX wear scar rating for a reason. If it were not so, they would not go to the extra expense of acheiving that.

Most diesel owners expect to get MUCH more than 125K mi out of their cars . I think anyone who pays $40K or more would expect this, don't you?
Maybe the reason is to benefit the fuel lubricity additive manufacturers?

Full employment opportunity program.... We do it with ethanol.
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