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E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008+)
The latest and greatest V8 powered M3!

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  #101  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM
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Softer ride on a Porsche? - I thought the whole point of a Porsche as a driving car is its ride and handling...otherwise it is just a pose...

Here's my take on the engine after driving a 335 and an M3...

The M3 engine takes a little more technique to get the most out of it and you have to rev it higher to get to it, this can be achieved by dropping down a gear. This requires some thought, but if you like to be tied into driving the car, the extra work makes it fun, and when you get it right, it feels awesome, a lot more awesome than a 335. Kind of like the perfect brake/heel-toe into a corner. In a 335, one requires (get away with less) thinking as the big torque band means you can pretty much press the throttle in any gear to get oomph, so you don't really have to think about it, you just drive it.

This higher level of engagement is part of what makes driving an M3 more fun, and when you get it right the car responds. With the 335, you could get away with being less precise and it will still respond. I am not sure whether this makes me an 'enthusiast' and can describe my driving as 'spirited' on Tirerack surveys...but I don't really care.

However, I do get frustrated when posters moan about the low end torque of the M3...that's because you have to go and find it in the gear box...If you drive an M3 like you drive a 335, hoping for a broad torque band, you are going to be disappointed.
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  #102  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by xrated335 View Post
Softer ride on a Porsche? - I thought the whole point of a Porsche as a driving car is its ride and handling...otherwise it is just a pose...

Here's my take on the engine after driving a 335 and an M3...

The M3 engine takes a little more technique to get the most out of it and you have to rev it higher to get to it, this can be achieved by dropping down a gear. This requires some thought, but if you like to be tied into driving the car, the extra work makes it fun, and when you get it right, it feels awesome, a lot more awesome than a 335. Kind of like the perfect brake/heel-toe into a corner. In a 335, one requires (get away with less) thinking as the big torque band means you can pretty much press the throttle in any gear to get oomph, so you don't really have to think about it, you just drive it.

This higher level of engagement is part of what makes driving an M3 more fun, and when you get it right the car responds. With the 335, you could get away with being less precise and it will still respond. I am not sure whether this makes me an 'enthusiast' and can describe my driving as 'spirited' on Tirerack surveys...but I don't really care.

However, I do get frustrated when posters moan about the low end torque of the M3...that's because you have to go and find it in the gear box...If you drive an M3 like you drive a 335, hoping for a broad torque band, you are going to be disappointed.
Well, I think most auto manufacturers, including BMW are building in adaptive/adjustable suspension so you can have the best of both worlds...a comfortable car for driving on poor pavement and commuting and a fun car in the twisties...historically Porsche has been a 2nd car for many people because its simply not a practical car day to day...suspension being one of the reasons.

The normally aspirated vs. turbo debate continues.... I still maintain that turbo makes a better street car. By the way, M3 torque curve is very flat and almost as large as the 335 so its not true to say that you need to rev it to get torque. Although the torque numbers are supposedly the same between the cars, I don't feel it as much in the m3. I need another test drive to see..and my 335 is stock. Although you may think you will, bottom line is most people day to day do not drive an M3 at high revs and therefore have a car with less usable day to day power than a turbo car. I'm still looking to find some stats comparing the cars in the 30-50 and 50-70 type speed ranges....normal day to day acceleration ranges. I may still get an M3 but yes I am disappointed with the engine's torque.
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  #103  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:59 PM
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Well, I think most auto manufacturers, including BMW are building in adaptive/adjustable suspension so you can have the best of both worlds...a comfortable car for driving on poor pavement and commuting and a fun car in the twisties...historically Porsche has been a 2nd car for many people because its simply not a practical car day to day...suspension being one of the reasons.

The normally aspirated vs. turbo debate continues.... I still maintain that turbo makes a better street car. By the way, M3 torque curve is very flat and almost as large as the 335 so its not true to say that you need to rev it to get torque. Although the torque numbers are supposedly the same between the cars, I don't feel it as much in the m3. I need another test drive to see..and my 335 is stock. Although you may think you will, bottom line is most people day to day do not drive an M3 at high revs and therefore have a car with less usable day to day power than a turbo car. I'm still looking to find some stats comparing the cars in the 30-50 and 50-70 type speed ranges....normal day to day acceleration ranges. I may still get an M3 but yes I am disappointed with the engine's torque.
So you're telling me about an M3 and you don't own one?
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  #104  
Old 02-08-2010, 03:08 PM
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So you're telling me about an M3 and you don't own one?
Yes, actually I don't own any BMW, I'm just a kid and I ride a skateboard. Please let me know if there was an inaccuracy in anything I stated.
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  #105  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:49 PM
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If you decide to test drive an M3 again, try driving it a little differently than you'd drive your 335, and I think you'll find the magic that owners talk about. If that doesn't work for you, then you probably don't want an M3. There is also a leap of faith involved, as the test car will have the break in fluids on board, and once these are changed, the car loosens up a lot too.
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  #106  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:14 PM
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The normally aspirated vs. turbo debate continues.... I still maintain that turbo makes a better street car. By the way, M3 torque curve is very flat and almost as large as the 335 so its not true to say that you need to rev it to get torque. Although the torque numbers are supposedly the same between the cars, I don't feel it as much in the m3. I need another test drive to see..and my 335 is stock. Although you may think you will, bottom line is most people day to day do not drive an M3 at high revs and therefore have a car with less usable day to day power than a turbo car. I'm still looking to find some stats comparing the cars in the 30-50 and 50-70 type speed ranges....normal day to day acceleration ranges. I may still get an M3 but yes I am disappointed with the engine's torque.
I think xrated's post above was pretty much spot on. One thing you will notice is that, unlike the 335i, the M3 is very comfortable cruising at 4k rpm, where it's max torque is. It does not feel jittery, strung out, or strained at that engine speed, and if 295 lb-ft of torque isn't enough for "city driving," then you drive like a madman.

One thing you'll find is that you get addicted to the upper half of the rev band in the M3...not because you actually need all that power, but because dammit, it just feels awesome. My car sees north of 8k rpm almost every time I drive it long enough to warm it up.

I often hear 335i owners tout the fact that they can just mash the throttle without shifting and go like stink, which makes their car superior for city driving. To be honest, if that's how you feel...if a simple downshift or paddle click is that taxing...then the M3 is not the right car for you in the first place. But to say that the M3 doesn't have enough torque simply means you aren't driving it as intended; at any legal speed, I can downshift and have enough torque to completely lose traction.

No doubt that the 335i, which has more torque (I think the N54 motor is grossly underrated), will feel just as fast or faster in certain situations, but that just goes to show how unreliable the butt dyno is, especially when it comes to gearing. I too have looked for stats comparing the cars from a roll and haven't found anything scientific, but I'm confident that in a 30-70 test measured in the same gear (e.g., 3rd) without a shift, the 335i would likely win, but in a test of which car is faster from 30-70 shifting optimally for that particular car, the M3 would triumph.

I disagree with your assessment of the respective torque curves of the two cars. The 335i's is taller, but not nearly as broad. IIRC, the 335i puts out 90% of its max torque between 1500 and 5500 rpm (a range of 4k rpm), while the M3 puts out 90% of its max torque from 2500 rpm to redline (a range of 6k rpm). And yes, the M3 does have to be rev'd more to get the same output.
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  #107  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:37 PM
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What does M button brings to track driving, compared to EDC-only? I've testdriven one without tech package and the other with most aggressive settings, and I don't feel much of a difference(well, public ramps, only 30hrs of non-competitive track time). The only thing that's immediately noticeable is EDC.

Also, what is the stock sound system? L7?

The only reason I resist these options is iDrive - tried it again, still hate it...
The driver can control the following settings in the M3:

1. Steering stiffness (normal and sport)
2. Suspension stiffness/damping (comfort, normal, and sport)
3. Throttle response (normal, sport, and sport plus)
4. Traction control (on, mdm, and off)

With iDrive/MDrive that comes with the Tech package, you can control all of these settings. Without it, you can only control throttle response (standard) and suspension settings (if you have optional EDC). The M-button simply allows you to create another setting in addition to your default setting that is easily accessed at the touch of a button.

The differences in all of the settings are very obvious (well, traction control settings are only obvious if you're pushing the car), so I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to distinguish.
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  #108  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:46 PM
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If you decide to test drive an M3 again, try driving it a little differently than you'd drive your 335, and I think you'll find the magic that owners talk about. If that doesn't work for you, then you probably don't want an M3. There is also a leap of faith involved, as the test car will have the break in fluids on board, and once these are changed, the car loosens up a lot too.
My test car had 10,000 miles on it and I redlined it several times during the test drive. I love everything about the car...just a little disappointed in the torque. Maybe the engine is just so smooth you don't feel the torque pull like you do in the 335, I don't know...that's why I was wondering if anyone had any stats such as 30-50 speed, etc.
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  #109  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:43 PM
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  #110  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:52 PM
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I disagree with your assessment of the respective torque curves of the two cars. The 335i's is taller, but not nearly as broad. IIRC, the 335i puts out 90% of its max torque between 1500 and 5500 rpm (a range of 4k rpm), while the M3 puts out 90% of its max torque from 2500 rpm to redline (a range of 6k rpm). And yes, the M3 does have to be rev'd more to get the same output.
I agree, the butt dyno can be unreliable and the smoothness of the V8 along with the seamless DCT shifts can certainly add to the deception of speed...as does the lack of body roll and the more supportive seats..(ie. did I really take that corner that fast if I'm not coming out of the seat and the car's not leaning?)

The torque curves of both cars are very flat as I recall...the 335 torque starts a little bit lower, yes. I did notice the longer torque curve of the m3 during my test drive..it just kept going...the salesman was very nice to keep looking over his shoulder for polizei as I bombed down the freeway on ramp at a decent clip ;-) I think my rapid lane changes at 90mph to test the handling made him a little nervous

I never said the M3 didn't have to be rev'd to get the same output. (if by output you mean HP, then yes, that's clearly true). What I did was contradict the previous poster who said that you have to rev the car a lot to get peak torque or something like that and as you stated above, peak torque in the M3 comes at 4,000 rpm, so reving it out is not going to get you more peak torque.

I still want an M3! My local dealer has 6 of them lined up in a row...ooh, so nice! they were backed in and they screwed on front plate brackets on each car....a crime! Guess I need to order a car so I can get one without holes in the bumper.
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  #111  
Old 02-09-2010, 01:07 PM
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I agree, the butt dyno can be unreliable and the smoothness of the V8 along with the seamless DCT shifts can certainly add to the deception of speed...as does the lack of body roll and the more supportive seats..(ie. did I really take that corner that fast if I'm not coming out of the seat and the car's not leaning?)

The torque curves of both cars are very flat as I recall...the 335 torque starts a little bit lower, yes. I did notice the longer torque curve of the m3 during my test drive..it just kept going...the salesman was very nice to keep looking over his shoulder for polizei as I bombed down the freeway on ramp at a decent clip ;-) I think my rapid lane changes at 90mph to test the handling made him a little nervous

I never said the M3 didn't have to be rev'd to get the same output. (if by output you mean HP, then yes, that's clearly true). What I did was contradict the previous poster who said that you have to rev the car a lot to get peak torque or something like that and as you stated above, peak torque in the M3 comes at 4,000 rpm, so reving it out is not going to get you more peak torque.

I still want an M3! My local dealer has 6 of them lined up in a row...ooh, so nice! they were backed in and they screwed on front plate brackets on each car....a crime! Guess I need to order a car so I can get one without holes in the bumper.
I think we're on the same page. I just wanted to make sure you have accurate info in considering these two choices. There's so much misinformation on the forums, often spread around by people who haven't driven both cars.

The torque curves really tell the story of what the driver feels in this comparison -- drivers feel torque, not horsepower. You are correct that both are nice and flat. The 335's torque curve is higher (although only rated at 300 lb-ft., in reality it's significantly higher) than the M3. That, in combination with the fact that peak torque occurs at only 1,400 rpm in the 335 (which means it comes on STRONG), is why you feel it more in the seat of your pants.

The M3's torque curve, although somewhat lower, maintains 90% of its peak output all the way to its 8400 rpm redline (almost 50% broader than the torque curve in the 335), which allows the horsepower (torque x rpm/5,252) to keep building much longer and higher. This added "width" more than compensates for what the M3 gives up to the 335 in terms of peak torque ("height") -- simply put, the area under the M3's torque curve is greater than the area under the 335's torque curve. This, combined with the M3's shorter gearing, is why the M3 is actually faster, even though you don't "feel" the kick in the rear as much. The 335 pulls harder, while the M3 pulls longer.

All this also explains why I said that the outcome of a "real world" test of 30-50 mph, 50-70 mph, or even 30-70 mph likely would depend on shifting. If one were forced to keep the car in 3rd gear, for example, I suspect the 335i would win because it is able to take full advantage of its tall powerband, while the M3 is not able to take full advantage of its wider powerband. Allowing the drivers to shift would allow the M3 to take full advantage of the powerband extending to its lofty redline and would give the M3 the edge. Hence, my conclusion that if one has an aversion to shifting, one should opt for the 335.

You touched on another benefit of the M3 that gets overlooked in the "city driving" comparo -- control. The M3 has more grip and is better handling and more responsive than the 335. Not that the 335 is a slouch in that department, but the M3 makes me feel much more comfortable using the copious amounts of power that these cars have in city driving, which rarely involves straight lines.

That's inexcusable for your dealer to screw in the front plate brackets like that. I actually made that an express condition of my purchase -- no holes in the front bumper.
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  #112  
Old 02-10-2010, 12:07 AM
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You touched on another benefit of the M3 that gets overlooked in the "city driving" comparo -- control. The M3 has more grip and is better handling and more responsive than the 335. Not that the 335 is a slouch in that department, but the M3 makes me feel much more comfortable using the copious amounts of power that these cars have in city driving, which rarely involves straight lines.

.
IMO neither the M3 or the 335i are very good cars for city driving because neither of them have sufficient down force to stick the car to the road when rounding corners at 100+ miles per hour.

CA
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  #113  
Old 02-10-2010, 01:27 AM
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  #114  
Old 02-10-2010, 05:22 AM
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IMO neither the M3 or the 335i are very good cars for city driving because neither of them have sufficient down force to stick the car to the road when rounding corners at 100+ miles per hour.

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  #115  
Old 02-10-2010, 06:49 AM
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  #116  
Old 02-10-2010, 08:39 AM
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I test drove a C63 /// AMG and let me tell you, that car is an ANIMAL! It couldn't hold traction above 2k RPM! It's a madman, a murderer, it wants to kill you! The ///M3 I test drove seemed to have a lot more control, and more well behaved.

9 more months.....
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:16 PM
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IMO neither the M3 or the 335i are very good cars for city driving because neither of them have sufficient down force to stick the car to the road when rounding corners at 100+ miles per hour.

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Old 02-10-2010, 02:46 PM
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:25 PM
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I test drove a C63 /// AMG and let me tell you, that car is an ANIMAL! It couldn't hold traction above 2k RPM! It's a madman, a murderer, it wants to kill you! The ///M3 I test drove seemed to have a lot more control, and more well behaved.

9 more months.....
I am interested in your thoughts around something slightly different. The Audi S5 versus the 335is or the M3. Currently I have a 2007 335i coupe. Lease is up. The car has been fun but regardless of what I do I am going back to a Cabriolet. I drove the M3 and it was a rush to drive it aggressively and in normal city streets. However, I it will be hard to justify the delta in price versus what I will use of it. I know there great cars out there like AMG or the Austin Martin and the 911 but we are talking about cars 30% more bucks. These are in a different class full stop. However, the S5 has just as much if not more power (then the 335is) albeit questionable handling and lacks in a little in the "feel sporty" category. But for winter driving if need be, it will be superiour not to mention substanitially better interior and a usuable trunk with the top down. I actually think a Cabriolet should be a rag top.

Lastly, if you really want power and handling I think the Z4 35is will blow the M3 away although the 2010 Z4 definitely couldn't. I am trying to talk myself into the z4 35is roadster but it will have some major DD downfalls.

Thoughts....
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:29 PM
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I am interested in your thoughts around something slightly different. The Audi S5 versus the 335is or the M3. Currently I have a 2007 335i coupe. Lease is up. The car has been fun but regardless of what I do I am going back to a Cabriolet. I drove the M3 and it was a rush to drive it aggressively and in normal city streets. However, I it will be hard to justify the delta in price versus what I will use of it. I know there great cars out there like AMG or the Austin Martin and the 911 but we are talking about cars 30% more bucks. These are in a different class full stop. However, the S5 has just as much if not more power (then the 335is) albeit questionable handling and lacks in a little in the "feel sporty" category. But for winter driving if need be, it will be superiour not to mention substanitially better interior and a usuable trunk with the top down. I actually think a Cabriolet should be a rag top.

Lastly, if you really want power and handling I think the Z4 35is will blow the M3 away although the 2010 Z4 definitely couldn't. I am trying to talk myself into the z4 35is roadster but it will have some major DD downfalls.

Thoughts....
was just reading this comparison, m3 vs. s5

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/m3/200...5-coupe.html#2
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:57 PM
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Actually a good comparison. It more or less confirmed my thinking. M3 is M3 and the new 335is is here to compete against the S5. That being said, it becomes a questions of affordability and luxury versus power/performance. In the article is shows the Audi at
53K and the M3 at 67K. That's 14K or 26% more...the dilemma for me at least. I have the $ to bridge it but I am not sure I would feel good about it (very subjective). That's part of the reason I was looking at the Z4 35is. Near M3 performance (wish it wasn't so heavy) but at S5 pricing.

Thanks for the link,
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ASU View Post
Actually a good comparison. It more or less confirmed my thinking. M3 is M3 and the new 335is is here to compete against the S5. That being said, it becomes a questions of affordability and luxury versus power/performance. In the article is shows the Audi at
53K and the M3 at 67K. That's 14K or 26% more...the dilemma for me at least. I have the $ to bridge it but I am not sure I would feel good about it (very subjective). That's part of the reason I was looking at the Z4 35is. Near M3 performance (wish it wasn't so heavy) but at S5 pricing.

Thanks for the link,
I too am considering all of the cars you mentioned. However, just wanted to comment on the M3 vs. Z4 issue....I don't think the Z4 will come close to total M3 performance with the exception of 0-60 time. Most of the magazine reviews have been ho-hum on the Z4s handling whereas the M3 is universally praised as one of the best there is. Have you test driven an M3? edit: sorry reread your post and see you have driven it. Not sure if you plan to buy or lease but I think the M3 will hold its value much better than a z4. Remember its not the upfront price that matters, its the cost of ownership and unless you plan to drive it into the ground the M3 could end up costing you no more than the Z4. Roadsters are fun in their own way though...I've owned the previous Z4 and an MZ3.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASU View Post
Actually a good comparison. It more or less confirmed my thinking. M3 is M3 and the new 335is is here to compete against the S5. That being said, it becomes a questions of affordability and luxury versus power/performance. In the article is shows the Audi at
53K and the M3 at 67K. That's 14K or 26% more...the dilemma for me at least. I have the $ to bridge it but I am not sure I would feel good about it (very subjective). That's part of the reason I was looking at the Z4 35is. Near M3 performance (wish it wasn't so heavy) but at S5 pricing.

Thanks for the link,
Also note that the S5 coupe is going to the V6 SC engine of the S4 this summer. The S5 cabrio already has that engine. It's a pretty sweet engine. I test drove an S4 and I like it a lot. Feels similar to the 335 in many ways.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:39 PM
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I am having a problem uploading a link you will all love ..........You tube M3 GTS
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Last edited by 007M3; 02-11-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:40 PM
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