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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #1  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:32 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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Used E30 3.73 LS Diff Install for M Coupe--Pix + Notes

Hello All,

Well it's been about three weeks since my used 3.73 install and I'm finally getting around to post some notes and pictures for those that are interested. I was a little concerned about the noise I had been hearing, but it's been confirmed by Rennwerks here in Northern Cal and driving another individual's S52 with a UUC lightweight flywheel...same, exact noise when you let the clutch out abruptly...so I'm just living with it until I do the LTW Fly upgrade myself. Ok, on to the notes...

Oh first...thanks to "JonM" and his post on the 3.46 diff install..lots of carry-over, but there are a few differences/additions for the E30 Diff install that might help some of you that move forward with this upgrade

Parts/tools needed at a minimum:
1 qty. Used E30 3.73 LS diff (I picked up mine from a place in Hayward, CA called Double '02 Salvage http://www.double02salvage.com/)
1 qty. 14mm hex socket to remove drainplug (trust me-get this in advance, because you don't want to end up like me spending 3-4 hrs running around trying to find on a Sunday!!!)--Brand was SK
1 qty. E12 Socket (also SK)
1 qty. 12" x 1" diam. Metal Pipe---trust me--you want to have this!!!
1 qty. Diff Cover Gasket - 33 11 1 210 405
2 qty. Output Shaft Seals - 33 10 7 505 602
2 qts. Redline 75/90 Gear Oil (you will only use like 1.5 qts)
Not going to list--but various sockets & openend wrenches 12-19MM + Torque wrench
Recommended Parts:
2 qty. Diff cover drain bolt crush washers, 07 11 9 963 355
8 qty Diff cover mount wave washers, 07 11 9 932 112

If you want you can get all new hardware. JonM's 3.46 diff install post (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...highlight=3.46) shows a lot of these parts (although not sure if they will be same part numbers)

3.23 Removal..

Note - I did not have to remove my exhaust as others have done..was a bit perplexed as to why this needed to be done?

1. Basics...Jack car, jackstands, all that stuff

2. Remove 6 E12 bolts on each output shaft. I had a difficult time pulling the driver's side half shaft each time while the pass side came right out. I had to put a screwdriver in between the half-shaft & output shaft and gently pry apart..Be Careful though!!!..don't want to damage half-shaft

2a) zip tie Halfshafts out of the way

3. Remove 16mm driveshaft nuts. Easier to have a buddy sit in car and put in gear when you apply torque to remove..you can actually get 2 at a time before turning to do last two. The buddy system will make it easier on the Half-shaft bolts as well

4. Place floorjack under diff for support as you will now remove the rubber side diff mount bolt..it's a 18mm for the nut and a 19mm for the bolt

5) Remove the four diff mount bolts (16 mm). I found the following technique to work the best. For the PITA top diff mount bolts use a 16mm openend wrench (that's all that will fit) and use the 12" steel pipe I alluded to in parts list to act as a breaker bar...you will need it!!!...unless you are some kind of beast. For the bottom bolts I used a std ratchet and 16mm socket, but I still used the steel pipe

6) loosen and remove all four diff bolts and the spacers and wiggle that sucker out of there!!

Prep work Before Install of 3.73

1) leave the old 3.23 diff on the floorjack and jack it up a bit...drain out all the diff fluid by removing the 14mm bolt with the 14mm hex socket...i found this method to work fine with no mess whatsoever...you can manuever the diff so the oil flows right in your container

2) Remove the diff cover and output shafts from the 3.73 diff (I will show the output shaft removal technique below--very easy, just need a big screwdriver)..also, most salvage yards will drain the diff oil, so no need to worry about draining 3.73

3) Remove M diff cover and output shafts from 3.23

4) Pry out old seals from 3.73 and install new output shaft seals

5) Install M diff cover and output shafts on 3.73..don't forget new gasket and new output shaft lock ring (new lock ring comes with seals)

6) Get the 3.73 nice and level and fill with approx 1.5 qts of Redline 75/90. Torque down fill and drain bolts with 14mm hex to 77nm--use new crush washers!!

6) Install 3.73 diff cover and output shafts on 3.23 to keep out dust, etc

Install of 3.73

1) Slowly jack up 3.73 and make sure eveything is aligned on the way up...now comes the biggest pain of the whole install...lining up the damn top diff mount bolts...it can be a challange..just try to relax as best you can

2) Loosely install the top bolts and then work your way to the lower diff bolts and finally the 19mm rubber side mount.

3) I could not fit a torque wrench in to do the top diff mount bolts, but torque values are as follows (thanks Ron Stygar):
Rubber Mount: 77nm
Std Diff Mount bolts: 110nm

4) Attach driveshaft to diff with 16mm..again tough to get my torque wrench in but 43nm on the nuts

5) Attach half-shafts to output shafts....torque to 100nm

6) Drop that sucker and go have a ton o fun!!!

I don't think I missed anything that I can think of...Pix to follow and please feel free to comeback with questions.

Thanks,
MSH
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  #2  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:35 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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Pic of Output shaft removal from 3.73...just take a big screwdriver and turn it...it doesn't need a ton of force to pop...
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  #3  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:36 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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one more time!!!
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  #4  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:40 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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As I said at the beginning of my post, no need for me to remove exhaust....
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  #5  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:44 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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3.73 with M diff cover and output shafts (notice 12" pipe you will need!!) plus the additional specialty sockets...
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2003, 08:07 PM
Mike S Mike S is offline
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Maybe I missed this in another thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by yetiboy
Hello All,

I was a little concerned about the noise I had been hearing, but it's been confirmed by Rennwerks here in Northern Cal and driving another individual's S52 with a UUC lightweight flywheel...same, exact noise when you let the clutch out abruptly...so I'm just living with it until I do the LTW Fly upgrade myself. Ok, on to the notes...
In the case of a lightweight flywheel, there's good reason for the changed sounds emanating from the transmission / clutch assembly. You haven't changed any of those components, though, so I don't understand why you are so cavalier about the problem.

Personally, I'd be exceedingly disturbed by the development. Something ain't right and the consequences may range from mere inconvenience to nasty. How did Rennwerks justify it to you?

Mike
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2003, 09:22 PM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
In the case of a lightweight flywheel, there's good reason for the changed sounds emanating from the transmission / clutch assembly. You haven't changed any of those components, though, so I don't understand why you are so cavalier about the problem.

Personally, I'd be exceedingly disturbed by the development. Something ain't right and the consequences may range from mere inconvenience to nasty. How did Rennwerks justify it to you?

Mike
Rennworks said it's just noise...not to worry. As I said, no difference at all from another M Coupe with a LTW fly...exact same noise...I'm not worried at this point, but maybe I'll pay the price. If so, I'll let everyoe know what an idiot I was.

MSH
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  #8  
Old 10-14-2003, 11:23 PM
MDork MDork is offline
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thanks for the info mark...hopefully i wont see that "i was an idiot" post anytime soon
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  #9  
Old 10-15-2003, 12:16 AM
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Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yetiboy
Rennworks said it's just noise...not to worry. As I said, no difference at all from another M Coupe with a LTW fly...exact same noise...I'm not worried at this point, but maybe I'll pay the price. If so, I'll let everyoe know what an idiot I was.

MSH
I think that what Mike is trying to say (which I agree with) is that you do not have a light weight flywheel so you shouldn't have the noise that goes with one.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2003, 01:38 AM
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yeah, I'm too because you said in another thread that Rennwerks diagnosed the noise as a bad dual-mass flywheel, and a bad dual mass flywheel doesn't make the same noise as a ltw flywheel, or at least not that I've ever heard. It's also rather odd that the noise did not exist until immediately after installing the used 3.73 rear diff, but hopefully you are correct and it was just a coincidence
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2003, 02:37 AM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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I have had more than a couple of various posts from install questions. to noise questions, and now the detailed install version....a little background...

Please keep in mind that the noise only occurs when you engage or disengage the clutch abruptly (something one would not do on a normal basis). To replicate the noise I would engage the clutch--let out smoothly***as you would in NORMAL driving***...so you get a small amount of momentum going, say 3-4 mph, then engage clutch while moving slow, rev engine, and pop clutch = rattle from tranny, clutch area for 1-1.5 secs

One of the posters here, "Catfish" can attest to the noise...He has heard my cars noise and then upon driving HIS car I was able to replicate the exact, same noise---absolutely no difference in sound---the difference in parts is that Catfish has a 8.5 lbs UUC LTW Fly, while I have the stock dual-mass flywheel

Series of Events (Beginning to Present) of the Noise.....
-Notice noise afer installing the first 3.73 diff.
- Subsequently remove first 3.73 and replace with stock 3.23 to confirm noise isn't diff
- Noise remains WITH stock 3.23 diff (albeit lesss pronounced)
- Exchange first 3.73 with another 3.73 just to be safe
- Install second 3.73..noise remains - once again less pronounced than the first 3.73
- MSH still Paranoid about Noise...call Rennwerks for Appt
- Have many MC'ers listen to noise (Catfish, Mdork, Rick Kim from Roadfly)...they say flywheel
- Take to Steve at Rennwerks...he also confirms that is the flywheel..I ask if it is dangerous and/or critical that I replace right away..Steve states it is simply noise and that it is a sign of a wearing dual-mass fly but no need to be overly concerned
- Meet up with Catfish to look at his Bob Hanvey oil cooler. End up driving his car to test a Lightweight Flywheel set-up (UUC 8.5 lbs) and end up replicating the EXACT noise that I have in mine...absolutely zero difference in tone, pitch, duration, everything
- Have driven the car quite aggressively with several spirited Mountain runs and one Autocross with no issues and not really hearing the noise, since as I stated you have to do something that is pretty unnatural for normal driving techniques....

put it this way....Catfish had never really heard the noise on his OWN car, until I was able to replicate with this unnatural technique

So with alll of this in mind and hearing the evidence what do you all think is wrong. If I should be concerned, what should I be concerned about...catastrophic failure resulting in clutch & tranny damage?

As always, any advice/feedback is appreciated.

Thanks,
MSH
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2003, 11:21 AM
yetiboy yetiboy is offline
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Bump....

from previous post..."So with alll of this in mind and hearing the evidence what do you all think is wrong. If I should be concerned, what should I be concerned about...catastrophic failure resulting in clutch & tranny damage?"
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2003, 02:31 PM
Catfish Catfish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yetiboy
Please keep in mind that the noise only occurs when you engage or disengage the clutch abruptly (something one would not do on a normal basis). To replicate the noise I would engage the clutch--let out smoothly***as you would in NORMAL driving***...so you get a small amount of momentum going, say 3-4 mph, then engage clutch while moving slow, rev engine, and pop clutch = rattle from tranny, clutch area for 1-1.5 secs

One of the posters here, "Catfish" can attest to the noise...He has heard my cars noise and then upon driving HIS car I was able to replicate the exact, same noise---absolutely no difference in sound---the difference in parts is that Catfish has a 8.5 lbs UUC LTW Fly, while I have the stock dual-mass flywheel

- Have driven the car quite aggressively with several spirited Mountain runs and one Autocross with no issues and not really hearing the noise, since as I stated you have to do something that is pretty unnatural for normal driving techniques....

put it this way....Catfish had never really heard the noise on his OWN car, until I was able to replicate with this unnatural technique

So with alll of this in mind and hearing the evidence what do you all think is wrong. If I should be concerned, what should I be concerned about...catastrophic failure resulting in clutch & tranny damage?
Guess I should chime in here...

For those of you who haven't heard "the noise", it isn't as bad in person as it appears to be when reading these posts. Without actually taking his clutch out for inspection, I can't be 100% certain that it won't result in a catastrophic failure, but my gut feeling is that it won't. Rennwerks seems to feel the same way.

The noise is similar to the rattle common with LTW setups, but on MSH's stock clutch car, it is only evident during his abrupt clutch maneuver. The fact the clutch maneuver is rather unorthodox may explain why others have not noticed a similar noise.

On my car, MSH was able to replicate the sound even though I have a LTW flywheel. And yes, the LTW does have it's own sound but this rattle does seem to be common between the two setups when the clutch maneuver is exercised. The LTW setup just makes the noise a bit louder and easier to detect.

To be honest, if it was really a major problem I would expect the sound to get worse as the engine revs, which it does not. In fact, the noise is imperceptible aside from the abrupt clutch maneuver. This leads me to believe that it is a loading issue on the bearings in the transmission, which are loaded/unloaded as the clutch is engaged. The fact the noise is now audible may be due to the stock-dual mass flywheel losing a bit of it's isolating ability due to wear(?). Of course, until the clutch is pulled and inspected all of this is and will remain speculation. Given that the noise is only audible during the abrupt clutch maneuver, I don't think there's much to worry about, but then again...I could be wrong.

Oh yeah, I highly doubt this noise has anything to do with the 3.73 diffy install since the only item relating to the transmission that was touched was the driveshaft. And if there was a problem there, you would certainly hear it all the time and more likely, experience some vibrations as well.

Last edited by Catfish; 10-16-2003 at 02:34 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-13-2004, 12:02 PM
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Are there any markings on the 3.73 diff to let you know thats its a 3.73. I just got one in the mail and I want to verify that its the correct gearing.

Mpire
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  #15  
Old 05-13-2004, 02:04 PM
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Ron just had a recent posting regarding the differential screw plug crush washer. Apparently, there is a new part number which has an O ring 33 11 7 525 064

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...ght=screw+plug
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Old 05-13-2004, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpire
Are there any markings on the 3.73 diff to let you know thats its a 3.73. I just got one in the mail and I want to verify that its the correct gearing.

Mpire
You can count the ratio between turns of the output shafts and the pinion (input) shaft. 1 turn of the output shaft should cause the pinion shaft to rotate 3.73 times.
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2004, 09:37 AM
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Ok, so now I feel stupid... but thanks...

15 quarter turns on the input makes 1 fll turn of the output. But the cool thing is that they are both turning together, not just one side. Look at me feeling good about silly things. Maybe its just I cant wait to get it installed.
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  #18  
Old 06-01-2004, 10:18 AM
MCoupe197 MCoupe197 is offline
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Talking

I'll be picking up my used E30 3.73 diff this week. Just wondering why the output shafts need to be swapped out, and how expensive it would be to buy them new from BMW as well as the diff cover so that I didn't need to crack open my old diff to do the swap? I can't wait to see the results!
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:25 AM
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Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCoupe197
I'll be picking up my used E30 3.73 diff this week. Just wondering why the output shafts need to be swapped out, and how expensive it would be to buy them new from BMW as well as the diff cover so that I didn't need to crack open my old diff to do the swap? I can't wait to see the results!
Cover retails for $195. Output shafts retail for $70.50 each.
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:29 AM
MCoupe197 MCoupe197 is offline
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Ron, just curious about the difference in output shafts between the stock and E30 diffs? Thanks for the prices!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stygar
Cover retails for $195. Output shafts retail for $70.50 each.
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2004, 10:46 AM
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Ron Stygar Ron Stygar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCoupe197
Ron, just curious about the difference in output shafts between the stock and E30 diffs? Thanks for the prices!
E30 ones don't fit.
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  #22  
Old 06-01-2004, 02:07 PM
z3scot z3scot is offline
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Advice on shaft seals replacement

I have my used 3.73 diff and I have the shaft seals on order. Does anyone have any advise on changing them without special tools?

I was planning on using a big screwdriver to remove them and tap in the new ones with a hammer.

I guess BMW makes a special tool for this, don't know if it is for removal or installation or both. Anybody know the P.N and price?

-- Scott
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:21 PM
Blacksport350 Blacksport350 is offline
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I used a large screw driver to twist/pop them out. To put them back in, I used a socket with the same OD as the new seal so I could tap it in evenly.

I did my input shaft seal at the same time but would not recommend unless you are anal!
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:40 PM
z3scot z3scot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacksport350
I used a large screw driver to twist/pop them out. To put them back in, I used a socket with the same OD as the new seal so I could tap it in evenly.

I did my input shaft seal at the same time but would not recommend unless you are anal!
Do you remember the size socket needed?
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Old 06-01-2004, 04:35 PM
Blacksport350 Blacksport350 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3scot
Do you remember the size socket needed?
Not a clue, I did it at a friends shop and barrowed one from a mechanic. It was pretty damn big though! The seal has a dust lip on it which the old unit didn't have and I just folded the lip inside the socket so I could tap it in without damaging the seal.

Last edited by Blacksport350; 06-01-2004 at 05:39 PM.
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