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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 04-02-2010, 04:21 AM
Nh32010 Nh32010 is offline
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European Delivery Pricing

Per BMWUSA.COM, European Delivery Pricing means that one can save UP TO 7% of the MSRP. IF the full 7%, that would translate into about $3,500 on a 2011 535i or about $4,200 on a 2011 550i.

Does anyone know, why it's UP TO and not FULL 7%?

Also, do/can dealers offer an additional discount on top of the 7%?

All comments are welcome, especially from those folks who already purchased a bimmer through the ED.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:47 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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UP TO means if you buy a car with no options at all. The base ED MSRP is discounted 7% from the U.S. MSRP. However, options are not discounted, so the more options you add the lower the percentage savings becomes. Yes, dealers are free to negotiate a price below ED MSRP.
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2010, 07:27 AM
Beemurr528i Beemurr528i is offline
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From what I have read here in other posts, you should start with the ED price plus options at MSRP. Then deduct 9% on the total. That should provide something close to Invoice price to Dealer. Then negotiate using Invoice price, plus $1,000 to 2,000.
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  #4  
Old 04-02-2010, 03:26 PM
Nh32010 Nh32010 is offline
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Thanks for your feedbacks.

So, if I understood correctly, I come up with following calculations:

For a 2011 535i:

US MSRP: $49,600

ED MSRP: $46,128 (7% ED discount or $3,472 savings)

Dest.&Handl.: $875

100% total cost of all packages and options: $13,750

ED MSRP + Dest.&Handl. + Options&Packages: $60,753

Estimated invoice (if 9% discount): $55,285

Hence, there is about $5,500 room for negoatiation in this example.
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  #5  
Old 04-02-2010, 08:13 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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If you negotiate properly you can get 11 percent off of the base car and all options on Euro Delivery. The key is to negotiate based upon dollars above Euro Delivery Invoice.
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:34 PM
Nh32010 Nh32010 is offline
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Noted and thanks pharding. Will try.
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2010, 08:49 PM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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pharding,

If I may ask, where does the 11% figure come from? Is that the current difference between MSRP and invoice for the F10? Other posts here have stated 8% (.92) off of base MSRP and 9% (.91) off of options MSRP to arrive at invoice. I believe that estimated from E60 figures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
If you negotiate properly you can get 11 percent off of the base car and all options on Euro Delivery. The key is to negotiate based upon dollars above Euro Delivery Invoice.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2010, 11:34 PM
dallas528 dallas528 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayyou View Post
pharding,

If I may ask, where does the 11% figure come from? Is that the current difference between MSRP and invoice for the F10? Other posts here have stated 8% (.92) off of base MSRP and 9% (.91) off of options MSRP to arrive at invoice. I believe that estimated from E60 figures.
I don't mean to jump in on your question but I believe he is talking about negotiating $x,xxx over ED INVOICE, not MSRP. If you negotiate properly, you could end up paying up to 11% under U.S. MSRP with options included. It all depends on the amount that you and your CA agree upon over ED invoice, numbers and percentage will vary by dealer.
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  #9  
Old 04-04-2010, 05:06 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas528 View Post
I don't mean to jump in on your question but I believe he is talking about negotiating $x,xxx over ED INVOICE, not MSRP. If you negotiate properly, you could end up paying up to 11% under U.S. MSRP with options included. It all depends on the amount that you and your CA agree upon over ED invoice, numbers and percentage will vary by dealer.
Correct.

The key to a successful negotiation is to negotiate based upon $XXX above European Invoice if doing Euro Delivery or above US Invoice. Dollars off of MSRP while helpful doesn't tell you that much and are difficult to compare deals objectively. Options with their higher mark-up than the base car also complicate the matter. Dollars above invoice is a clean, simple way to negotiate the deal and compare your deal to other BMW Enthusiasts.

The absolute worst way to negotiate deal is based upon $xxx per month for a lease. There are simply too many variables and too many ways for the dealer to manipulate the numbers in chicanery. If leasing, it always make sense to me to do dollars above invoice while negotiating to get the BMW Buy Rate. Then go home and check the dealers lease math. Only fools rely on the dealer's lease math. When you sign a lease all of the math and lease criteria are excluded from the deal by the lease terms and conditions. With the the contract you are committing to Xxx dollars per month and the initial payment plus terms to insure that you honor the deal. BMW dealers and sales staff know this and they routinely exploit this to their financial benefit. Their math errors and faulty assumptions always faavor the dealership.

Another critical consideration is to make sure that the lease residual is based upon US MSRP, not Euro Delivery MSRP. The difference is several thousand dollars over the life of the lease.
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:17 AM
nealh nealh is offline
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I agree with pharding 100%.

I do not deal with salesmen anymore. I do it via the internet period(except for a quick test drive and look at colors). I get my data and pricing. I offer a reasonable profit since its a business. I have my numbers set via lease, loan etc. If they cant match my numbers then they have prove to me where I am wrong(ha!) or I as I have done I go elsehwere till I get what I want.
They need me more than I need them. But you have to be nice and reasonable. It is a business and they need to make $$.
The ED is nice as it has no affect on their allotments so they can take less profit. They always believe the next person will pay more but right now people are not buying expenisve items like they once did.
Auto sales are down in a big way. Clearly, early on the new 5 series will have a demand but that will quickly IMHO drop and they will need buyers. BMW counts o nthe 5 series for 50% of its profits.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:39 AM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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I agree with all of the above as well. But what I'm really getting at is how you ARRIVE at the invoice price in the first place. It's clear this information is no longer being made public, but some estimates are being discussed on this board, usually in the form of a percentage off of MSRP. I've seen 8% off for base price, 9% off for options. and most recently 11% from pharding. It's pretty hard to negotiate above invoice when you don't even know what invoice is. Anyone know where this information might be found?
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:45 AM
nealh nealh is offline
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IRC, the MSRP-9% is invoice price
options are more diffucult as some have higher and lower profit margin

ED invoice is lower than US invoice, I am not sure the discount for this.

Be patient I am sure the invoice pricing will be showing soon.
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:52 AM
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kenhamm kenhamm is offline
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Since we do not have firm wholsale pricing as of yet especially for Ed, I would assume that communicating with the dealer on the machanics of the deal works, so for instance, letting the dealer know you would like to pay $xxxx over ED wholesale price is the deal you are requesting, if you intend on leasing through BMWFS, then saying that you would like the buy rate, the residual based on US MSRP, and any loyalty dollars added to the deal if you are a return customer with BMWNAFS. And of course any other items that you would want included in the deal such as multipe security deposts and the such. That is how I see this working. Now, if the dealer agrees, then I am at the mercy of the dealer to perform based on the agreement (my issue is based on not seeing the actual wholesale pricing so I am going on blind faith and some assumed pricing calculations that we have all been listing here in lieu of actual numbers). Is my thinking sound? BTW. that might be the first time my thinking has ever been sound if I actually have this understood... The only reason I am concerned is that I would want to plug in the numbers in a leasing program to check their math.
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  #14  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:54 AM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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Yeah, tell me, having the true invoice prices would be nice. The 9% you mention and other similar estimates I believe are taken from the current E60.

And ED MSRP is 7% less than US MSRP, so would be safe to assume ED invoice would be 7% less than US invoice?
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2010, 10:04 AM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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Quote:
Now, if the dealer agrees, then I am at the mercy of the dealer to perform based on the agreement (my issue is based on not seeing the actual wholesale pricing so I am going on blind faith and some assumed pricing calculations that we have all been listing here in lieu of actual numbers).
This sounds good in principle, but I don't think I'd be entirely comfortable leaving so many unknowns on the table. I think I'll wait until I have the invoice pricing.
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  #16  
Old 04-04-2010, 10:23 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayyou View Post
I agree with all of the above as well. But what I'm really getting at is how you ARRIVE at the invoice price in the first place. It's clear this information is no longer being made public, but some estimates are being discussed on this board, usually in the form of a percentage off of MSRP. I've seen 8% off for base price, 9% off for options. and most recently 11% from pharding. It's pretty hard to negotiate above invoice when you don't even know what invoice is. Anyone know where this information might be found?
It will be available shortly, although in a different format from the BMW document, not unlike how the BMW Buy Rates, BMW FS lease rates, are handled with LeaseCompare. For right now the best strategy is to base the deal on dollars above Euro Delivery Invoice. The order can be modified or canceled once better information is available.

If BMW insists on making this too difficult, Audi and MB also make great cars.
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04 Successfully lobbied BMW NA and BMW FS to prohibit dealers from using residual values based upon Euro Delivery MSRP and to use US MSRP saving BMW Enthusiasts several thousand dollars on each lease

14 550i Euro Del
14 X3 2.8i
11 550i Euro Del, Retired
08 550i Euro Del, Retired
06 330i Euro Del, Retired
04 545i Euro Del, Retired
01 530i Euro Del, Retired
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2010, 10:56 AM
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kenhamm kenhamm is offline
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Thanks for all the responses, especially pharding, I've learned alot about maximizing my negotiation approach, will just have to be patient for the pricing to appear. I am thinking there is nothing wrong at this point to ordering the car for ED and putting down a small deposit, although quite frankly, I dont understand the deposit thing, it ties up my money and it is refundable, so I dont see the practicality of it for any of the parties involved, except now the dealer gets to make a small amount of interest on my money and the CA, not sure what he gets out of it, LOL. Just bitching, it is a principle thing, I am not going to lose sleep over $500 or whatever the amount they squeeze out of me . This has been a great learning experience for me though, and when I pick that car up at the Welt, well, I wont be thinking much about this part of the experience, just how soon can I get that car on the roads of Germany
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2010, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
It will be available shortly, although in a different format from the BMW document, not unlike how the BMW Buy Rates, BMW FS lease rates, are handled with LeaseCompare. For right now the best strategy is to base the deal on dollars above Euro Delivery Invoice. The order can be modified or canceled once better information is available.

If BMW insists on making this too difficult, Audi and MB also make great cars.
FWIW, I think that at this point the only missing link is the ED wholesale price. The US wholesale information is available to BMW dealers and, thus, to us. The version I have seen, though, does not list ED wholesale. Those dealers with whom I have spoke, though, are confident that historical ratios will stay in line. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:38 PM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warden View Post
FWIW, I think that at this point the only missing link is the ED wholesale price. The US wholesale information is available to BMW dealers and, thus, to us. The version I have seen, though, does not list ED wholesale. Those dealers with whom I have spoke, though, are confident that historical ratios will stay in line. Hope this helps.
Agree. Hopefully ED invoice will be available simultaneously with US invoice. And hopefully soon.
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  #20  
Old 04-04-2010, 06:52 PM
xrayyou xrayyou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warden View Post
FWIW, I think that at this point the only missing link is the ED wholesale price. The US wholesale information is available to BMW dealers and, thus, to us. The version I have seen, though, does not list ED wholesale. Those dealers with whom I have spoke, though, are confident that historical ratios will stay in line. Hope this helps.
Agree. Hopefully ED invoice will be available simultaneously with US invoice. And hopefully soon.
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  #21  
Old 04-04-2010, 07:56 PM
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Question ....

In this discussion do "invoice" and "wholesale" mean the same thing?
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  #22  
Old 04-04-2010, 08:12 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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Yes. They are used interchangeably. The proper term used by BMW NA is Confidential Wholesale Price.
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04 Successfully lobbied BMW NA and BMW FS to prohibit dealers from using residual values based upon Euro Delivery MSRP and to use US MSRP saving BMW Enthusiasts several thousand dollars on each lease

14 550i Euro Del
14 X3 2.8i
11 550i Euro Del, Retired
08 550i Euro Del, Retired
06 330i Euro Del, Retired
04 545i Euro Del, Retired
01 530i Euro Del, Retired
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  #23  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:55 PM
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Based on numerous previous models where invoice pricing was available, I used the following (as close as I can get):

US Wholesale base price = US MSRP base price x 0.92
US wholesale options = US MSRP options x 0.91
ED wholesale = US wholesale x 0.93 (also can use US MSRP x 0.92 x 0.93).
In these calculations, be sure to subtract the $875 destination fee before any other factors since this does not change.

BMW wholesale also seems to round up to the nearest $5.

All this is speculation, but I placed my order on Friday (2 days ago), and I should be seeing actual wholesale pricing on the final price some time this week (my dealership has a new sales manager that I have to "break in"...).

I'll let you know how close these estimates are soon!
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  #24  
Old 04-05-2010, 12:27 AM
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I really doubt BMW will deviate much from the historic formula. The retail/wholesale pricing for certain models (e.g. E89, F07) is already out, and it would be unprecedented for BMW to have one set of pricing numbers for one model and the another set for the rest.

For those that missed it, here's the spreadsheet that I took from "hoehne" at bimmerpost and added the estimated wholesale pricing based on the historic formula. I verified some of the numbers against known wholesale option prices from the other models (e.g. metallic paint), and they seem to match up very accurately. However, these are still "estimates."
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  #25  
Old 04-05-2010, 11:21 AM
sfbayguy sfbayguy is offline
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The premium pkg MSRP is $4,900. and $4,460. invoice on the 535i, not $4,500. and 4,095. (unless you order it with ZAV and/or ZCW pkg's, then it is $4,500. and $4,095.)
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