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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:07 PM
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Actually, the car is driven everyday and I would be surprised that the fuel filter replacement is the silver bullet as some posts suggest for my issue. What someone recommended was that the filter should be replaced if you are thinking about replacing the injectors. Some other posts reported having less flow through b/c of a dirty filter. I have used Lucas injector clearner, but will look into the techron.
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Last edited by morrisroad; 11-17-2011 at 01:06 PM. Reason: ...changed "wouldn't" to would be surprised
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  #52  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:09 PM
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Today while I was driving I got this code.
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  #53  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:32 PM
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It's weird how a very sensible comment goes unnoticed!!!!
Maybe because there's no DIY for the lifter?
Anyways, thanks for sharing, Igor.
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  #54  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:06 PM
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no Doru
because everyone looks for simple and cheap which is not always the case
i need to do this job one day on my 2001 105k miles to finally resolve it but the job itself is very complicated

this is the one who tried to fix the root of problem

http://www.e39.co.uk/index.php?optio...atid=3&id=4504

my car also has this cold tapping noise which is also related to worn lifters
here is one good thread with "Toubleshooting BMW Hydraulic Bucket Tappet Problems" , our M54 engine is in the list

http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forum...-noise-on-M54&

Last edited by champaign777; 11-16-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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  #55  
Old 11-16-2011, 11:10 PM
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From Champaign 777 links:
Exhibit A

"530i Hydraulic Valve Lifter replacement

I really need some good advice, I own a 53 plate 530i Sport with 142k on the clock.
My car has the typical 'Cold Start Misfire' attributed to these engines and the culprit is the HVA(s) on Cylinder 1.
Now I'm not saying that I am a trained mechanic, but I am no stranger to car engines, and have replaced the timing chain and gear on a M42 318iS a few years ago, so what I really want to know is:
How easy is it to replace the lifters without the use of special equipment?
I was contemplating taking the engine apart last Saturday, but fate (in the form of my parents taking the car) prevented me from doing so.
I am aware of the engines being dual VANOS and requiring so-called 'alignment tools' to set them back up, BUT are they really necessary?"...etc

Exhibit B (long)

"Troubleshooting BMW Hydraulic Bucket Tappet Problems

Common complaints of BMW hydraulic bucket tappets (HVA) are tapping/rattling noise from the valve train area or a binding HVA element.


The two most common reasons for the replacement of BMW hydraulic bucket tappets (HVA) found in M42, M44, M50, M52, M54, M60, M62, S50, S52 and S62 engines are: tapping/rattling noise from the valve train area or a binding HVA element. Tapping/rattling noise from the valve train area may have various different causes depending on engine oil level, engine/oil temperature, when the noise is heard (cold start, engine hot), etc.

The following Complaint/Cause and Repair scenarios will assist in troubleshooting for HVA element noise:

Situation 1A

Tapping / rattling noises from the area of the valve train up to 20 seconds after a cold start.

Cause

These noises can be traced back to the higher viscosity of cold mineral based engine oil. For a brief moment insufficient oil reaches the high pressure chamber ofthe HVA element via the high pressure valve after start up. This results in clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe which then causes a tapping/rattling noise.

Influencing factors for this complaint:

Viscosity of engine oil used

Ambient temperature

This condition is not caused by mechanical damage to any engine components and has no damaging effect on the service life ofthe engine.

Repair

Check that oil viscosity is matched to ambient temperature range at which the vehicle is being operated. Refer to Temperature/Viscosity chart for further information.

Situation 1B

Tapping/rattling noises in the area of the valve train for the first 8 -10 consecutive cold starts. This condition usually occurs after the engine has been turned off at normal operating temperature and then not warmed up to full operating temperature during the next series of cold starts. This operating condition can occur, for example, on new vehicles.

Cause

Hot engine oil initially escapes from the oil galley of the HVA elements when the engine is stopped. A small amount of oil also escapes through the gaps between the HVA elements and the HVA housings in the cylinder head.

The oil then contracts while the engine is cooling down and allows air to enter the oil system. During the subsequent cold start, this air can be forced into the HVA elements (causing air pockets) through the build up of engine oil pressure. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping/rattling noises.

This HVA tapping/rattling noise is not dependent on the amount oftime the engine is off, but rather on:

The temperature of the engine when it was turned off (operating temperature - hot)

The number of subsequent cold starts without the engine being warmed up to operating temperature.

Repair

Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber of the HVA elements.

Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.

Situation 1C

Tapping/rattling noises in the area of the valve train after extreme cornering/lateral acceleration (engine oil level at or below minimum).

Note: These valve train noises will not stop until the engine is run for approximately 10 - 15 minutes at an engine speed of at least 2,500 rpm with the oil at the proper level.

Cause

During extreme corneringllateral acceleration with the engine oil level at or below minimum, air can be drawn in by the oil pump (oil foaming). The air which is drawn into the oil system can enter the HVA elements. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping/rattling noises.

Repair

Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber ofthe HVA elements. Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.

HVA Bleeding Procedure:

Check oil level correct if necessary.

Let engine idle at operating temperature with the hood open to verify valve train tapping/rattling noise.

If a tapping/rattling noise can be heard from the valve train, run the engine for 3 minutes without load at approximately 2,500 to 3,000 rpm (bleeding procedure).

Then with the engine at idle listen for valve train noises again.

Note: Only listen for noises when the engine has reached minimum oil pressure, i.e. after a waiting period (at idle) of approximately 15 - 30 seconds.

If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.

If the tapping/rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be repeated (run the engine for 3 minutes at 2,500 - 3,000 rpm).If necessary, repeat this procedure up to five times.

If the tapping/rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be performed one final time for approximately 15 minutes.

If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.

If the tapping/ rattling noise is still heard after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the following scenarios will assist in further troubleshooting for HVA element noise:

If the noise is coming from all HVA elements an oil supply problem is the most likely cause.

Check engine oil pressure as outlined in the appropriate repair manual.

If the oil pump pressure (at idle = minimum pressure or regulated =maximum pressure) is below specification a visual inspection of the oil pump and oil pump pick up in the oil pan should be performed with emphasis on the pick up gasket and control valve O-ring were applicable.

Note: A faulty oil pump control valve O-ring or oil pump pick up gasket (slight tear in O-ring or gasket) may not always result in a low oil pressure indication when performing an oil pressure check. The air drawn in to the lubrication system via a defective gasket or O-ring will cause oil foaming and HVA tapping/rattling noises.

If the noise is still coming from an individual HVA element after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the suspected element(s) can be isolated as follows:

Remove cylinder head cover.

Turn the engine over (normal direction of rotation) until the camshaft lobe ofthe HVA element to be checked is pointing away from the HVA element (engine valve completely closed).

Repeatedly apply a force ofapproximately 2.25 ft.lbs to the HVA element with your thumb or using a folding arm tool BMW special tool number 90 88 6 009 321 (included in the BMW assembly wedge kit P/N 90 88 6 009 310) or a hard wood wedge.

If the HVA element collapses slightly as though it is spring loaded, this is a sign that air is trapped in the high pressure chamber.

Apply a force of approximately 4.50 - 6.75 ft.lbs for 10 - 15 seconds to the HVA element using your thumb, folding arm tool or a hard wood wedge.

If clearance between the camshaft lobe and the HVA element is created when the force is applied, this indicates that the check valve incorporated in the HVA element is not closing/sealing properly due to contamination.

Release the applied force from the HVA element and using a feeler gauge measure the clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe.

If any clearance is detected this indicates that the HVA element is sticking.

Conduct the checks as described above on all HVA elements.

Mark any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) for further examination.

Remove HVA elements and visually inspect. Replace any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.

Note: Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed from. This prevents possible binding due to different wear patterns between the bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.

Situation 2

Binding HVA element.

Cause

An HVA element which is binding (element stuck in the extended position) will not allow avalve (intake or exhaust) to seat properly causing valve seat leakage.

This type of HVA failure may not cause a tapping/rattling noise but the customer complaint may be, "engine runs rough during the warm up phase and runs good when warmed up" and/or the "Check Engine" lamp is on.

If the "Check Engine" lamp is illuminated due to a binding HVA element(s) one or more misfire fault codes may be set in the Engine Control Module (ECM/DME).

Note: Basic troubleshooting should be performed First before checking for a binding HVA element to eliminate all other possible factors/components which could set the misfire faults such as low fuel level, a faulty spark plug, etc.

Troubleshooting Tips:

If there is a binding HVA element in one or more cylinders as described above a misfire fault can typically be reproduced in the affected cylinderfs) by duplicating the conditions in which the misfire occurred according to the DME/ECM fault code description i.e., at engine temperature = X, engine speed = X, etc.

A binding HVA element which is causing a misfire in one specific cylinder will not "move" to an other cylinder and will always cause a misfire fault in the affected cylinder.

Performing the "Smooth-Running" test (found in the DME control unit functions section of DIS) will assist in pin pointing a cylinder with a binding HVA element.

A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a high reading when compared to the other good cylinders.

Since a binding HVA element may in some cases be intermittent (engine only runs rough when cold) if a cylinder leak down check is used for troubleshooting this should be performed when the problem exists, for example: compare the cylinder leakage rates to each other with a cold engine to determine the cylinder with the extreme leakage rate.

A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a leakage rate above 15%.

Remove suspected HVA elements and visually inspect.

A binding HVA element will typically have a high pressure piston (located in the center of the HVA element body) which extends out approximately 3 mm further when compared to the other HVA elements removed from the cylinder head.

Replace any binding HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.

Note: Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed from. This prevents possible binding due to different wear patterns between the bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.
Information was provided by the Automotive Parts Remanufacturers Association (APRA). "

I thought we might want to keep this info consolidated.
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Last edited by doru; 11-16-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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  #56  
Old 11-17-2011, 05:27 AM
pshovest pshovest is offline
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OK, but you should be surprised, because a clogged fuel filter doesn't fit the symptoms.

Paukl S
BMW CCA 69606


Quote:
Originally Posted by morrisroad View Post
........and I wouldn't be surprised that the fuel filter replacement is the silver bullet as some posts suggest for my issue.........
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  #57  
Old 11-17-2011, 05:46 AM
pshovest pshovest is offline
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Did check engine light come on also? If not then this is a pending code.

So bank 2 is too rich and DME is removing 26% of fuel from bank 2. This live data is useful. Leaking injector(s) would cause this. STFT tend to vary a lot so I'd keep monitoring this to see if it continues. The tough part is figuring out which cylinder is the problem.

In one of your posts you say the rough running improves but doesn't completely go away after warmup. I'd check compression and look for a leaking injector. You can move bank 2 injectors to bank 1 and see if code moves. You might be able to pull plugs shortly after a cold start to look for unburnt fuel, and change injector on that cylinder.

Do you hear valve train/lifter noise on a cold start? How about after warmup? Perhaps this is issue reported by Champaign777 & Doru.

Paul S
BMW CCA 69606

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Originally Posted by morrisroad View Post
Today while I was driving I got this code.
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  #58  
Old 11-17-2011, 07:41 AM
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to answer on your question Paul i did compression test on 2001 525i and all is close to normal
i see a bit low compression on one cylinder ( 3 or 4 ) but it is still inside this 5-10% difference

I also have this cold tapping noise and based on BMW certificate i think i fail into this category

Situation 1A

"Tapping / rattling noises from the area of the valve train up to 20 seconds after a cold start"

just because
"This condition is not caused by mechanical damage to any engine components and has no damaging effect on the service life ofthe engine"
and no tapping noise / ANY misfire when engine is warm up it is not argent for me to fix it

this is in my list :
1. I want to do leak down test one day which may give more clear picture about this issue
2. "change injector" is easy to say , i would touch them only if I will install a new injectors or do clean old with new o-rims as Doru suggested
3. I want to replace coils as well on 10 years old car ... another 130$ +
4. new SAP
cheers I

Last edited by champaign777; 11-19-2011 at 02:03 PM.
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  #59  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:04 AM
kgorczyn kgorczyn is offline
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Quote:
3. I want to replace coils as well on 10 years old car ... another 130$
Where?! I thought our coils were $50 each at least!
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  #60  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:16 AM
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check amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A2P2YZYC13I1NO
not sure if it's a Bosch , need to ask

Last edited by champaign777; 11-17-2011 at 11:22 AM.
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  #61  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:47 AM
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Hey, Igor, why do you want to change the SAP? I just changed the check valve & the salmon relay as a preventative measure as per the BMW bulletin - I had no issues, but when I pulled the check valve it was caked with carbon deposits and started to show some rust, so maybe you would need to change only these 2 items which are much cheaper than the SAP, which if it doesen't suck humidity (failed check valve), or if it's not stuck running continuosly (stuck relay) should last indefinetly (due to the fact that it runs only a few dozen seconds when the engine is cold started)







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  #62  
Old 11-17-2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pshovest View Post
OK, but you should be surprised, because a clogged fuel filter doesn't fit the symptoms.

Paukl S
BMW CCA 69606

Yes...that's what I meant, my bad...I would be surprised.
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pshovest View Post
You might be able to pull plugs shortly after a cold start to look for unburnt fuel, and change injector on that cylinder.

Do you hear valve train/lifter noise on a cold start? How about after warmup? Perhaps this is issue reported by Champaign777 & Doru.

Paul S
BMW CCA 69606
...Good idea around checking maybe moving the injectors from bank 2 to bank 1 or checking the plugs. I cleared the code today.

I can't really tell if the noises are like those described. The engine sounds pretty much how its always sounded.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:04 PM
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Question about the coils...those look like the older style of coils. The bosch coils are around $43 CDN/each. But they also have some that are Direct Ignition Coil OEA for $20/each but not sure what brand these are. There are bunch of these out there at this price with no brand.
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Hey, Igor, why do you want to change the SAP? I just changed the check valve & the salmon relay as a preventative measure as per the BMW bulletin - I had no issues, but when I pulled the check valve it was caked with carbon deposits and started to show some rust, so maybe you would need to change only these 2 items which are much cheaper than the SAP, which if it doesen't suck humidity (failed check valve), or if it's not stuck running continuosly (stuck relay) should last indefinetly (due to the fact that it runs only a few dozen seconds when the engine is cold started)






i never touched it
i have diesel sound 10 sec from my SAP , i think i need to do something even no light on dash
i think there are couple of threads about SAP where people just changed the motor and check valve
not sure what salmon relay is some more info about BMW bulletin ?

Last edited by champaign777; 11-17-2011 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrisroad View Post
Question about the coils...those look like the older style of coils. The bosch coils are around $43 CDN/each. But they also have some that are Direct Ignition Coil OEA for $20/each but not sure what brand these are. There are bunch of these out there at this price with no brand.
no brand no good
coil changed somewhere in 2002 so for 2001 M54 i need old style coils #0221504029 and you probably need
new style coils #12131712219

Last edited by champaign777; 11-17-2011 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champaign777 View Post
i never touched it
Quote:
Originally Posted by champaign777 View Post
i have diesel sound 10 sec from my SAP , i think i need to do something even no light on dash
i think there are couple of threads about SAP where people just changed the motor and check valve
not sure what salmon relay is some more info about BMW bulletin ?
This is the BMW SAP failure prevention bulletin (fault analysis guide).

The salmon relay is located in the E-box under the charcoal filter - pass side. This here is the relay I was talking about.


P.S. if you change the check valve, make sure you get also the gasket (it's a sandwiched build gasket, which will desintegrate when you remove the original one)
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Last edited by doru; 11-18-2011 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 11-19-2011, 01:48 PM
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Changed the fuel filter and waiting for the magic to happen now. BTW the fuel filter was the original and pretty dirty. I am posting this in another thread with details.
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Old 11-20-2011, 06:30 AM
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Wanted to report that I do feel a very noticable improvement in acceleration.

Prior to this, and after replacing the DISA which was suggested (and it was broken after inspecting it, that's also why I replaced it), I was also experiencing a 'bogging down, with burst of acceleration' when trying to accelerate from a stop. It didn't improve after the DISA. However, I don't have that issue now. The accelartion is pretty smooth. Unfortunately, the issue I have with miss is definitely less noticable, but its warmer today @10 degrees C and this is not when I have normally had the issue, its more pronounced when the weather starts to get colder.

In any event, I am pleased with the fuel filter replacement results. Will check out what happens the next cold day.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:56 PM
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Going to replace the injectors - have ordered them maybe this week I should receive them.
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:46 PM
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keep going
not to many replaced injectors here, please keep us updated

Last edited by champaign777; 11-27-2011 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:29 PM
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I went about replacing the injectors with these GB REMANUFACTURING from Bimmer Specialist. These are like Siemens originals rebuilt.
I followed this procedure http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...00#post6344800, so will not write it up.

The only thing that I would add to the procedure is that after you release the pressure, you will still have gas in the fuel rail. When you remove injectors from front to back you will get more gas coming at the bottom end than than you think, so have your rags handy.

Because I had to take the rail off a second time, I disconnected the fuel pump and ran the engine to clear the gas out and there was less of it as a result.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:43 PM
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Mein Auto: BMW 530
The entire R&R injector procedure is not that challenging, but this is not one of my favorites. While the GB Units looked, there was one that looked a bit pitted at top of the injector (by plug). It seemed to seat properly, but when I did a test run it was p**sing out gas .

I took it all off again, then checked the o-ring and that looked fine, but on the second try it did the same thing leaking.

On the third try I moved it and it was leaking without any pressure on the rail and not running so, I just put one of the old injectors back on. After that it was not leaking. I will need to send it back and wait for a new one to be sent . While I like online shopping the shipping back and forth can be a pain for these kinds of situations.

I won't be able to say if its the injectors resolve this until I replace the old one with the new one. However, if the problem was with one of the 5 that were removed it might be ok. I report back when its cold again.
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  #74  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:28 PM
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champaign777 champaign777 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2003 530 Sport Twins
Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Hey, Igor, why do you want to change the SAP? I just changed the check valve & the salmon relay as a preventative measure as per the BMW bulletin - I had no issues, but when I pulled the check valve it was caked with carbon deposits and started to show some rust, so maybe you would need to change only these 2 items which are much cheaper than the SAP, which if it doesen't suck humidity (failed check valve), or if it's not stuck running continuosly (stuck relay) should last indefinetly (due to the fact that it runs only a few dozen seconds when the engine is cold started)






this thread pushed me to do my secondary air pump
ordered
Valve 11727540468
Gasket 11727505259
Pressure Hose 11721435456
Ordered motor to redo Air pump as CNN mentioned

Last edited by champaign777; 12-03-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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  #75  
Old 12-04-2011, 07:29 AM
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morrisroad morrisroad is offline
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Mein Auto: BMW 530
The miss was still present today when I started the car. While I have not been able to solve the rough start problem when cold, the acceleration and gas mileage has improved. I should be getting a new injector later this week so I will update then, but I am sure its likely not going to solve this problem.
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