Learning from others mistakes

Originally Posted by sergiok

Yup!

He was following the Porsche in front of him... thus he took the turn too fast and way too early!

Yup. I was at a Beer & Track event this past Wed. night. We watched a bunch of incar cameras from various races (NHIS, Glen, etc...) one of the things that was common in a few of them is the "monkey see, monkey do" error. Guys would follow the car infront of them through a bad line, instead of racing the track, they are just following the guy in front of them.

The guy in this video tries to catch the car infront of him, and possibly pushes beyond the limits of th car, but he definately took the corner too early. Not sure if he lifted or broke or the front wheels ran onto the inside of the corner and upset the car. At that speed it looks like he was close to 10/10ths and a little upset proved costly.

Originally Posted by sergiok

BTW, that clip in the OT forum doesn't show enough of the previous turns.

Shifting at the apex?!?!? Crazy IMO.

I only see one hand on the steering wheel, bad hand positioning.


I went ahead and downloaded both the 28mb and the 49mb vid clip of him going around the track. The 28mb has the crash on it.

Anyway, you can easily tell from the larger vid clip that the conditions are wet. He was breaking the rear end loose quite a bit.

I think the real problem with this guy is one I spotted at the onset of the video. I immediately thought that when I get to the crash, it's going to be at the exit of a corner.

Why?

Because he's putting TONS of steering input in at the entrance of the corner. He's clearly trusting the back end of the car too much.

By throwing that much lock on in the corners, he was just asking for exit oversteer... the Nascar boys call it "pushy loose." What it means is that the front understeers a bit then bites right at the exit, causing oversteer.

To those who haven't experienced it before, or had it pointed out to them, it seems like the car is loose on exit, when the real problem is that the driver is inducing (or at least not recognizing) understeer which is *causing* the oversteer at exit.

Well, the main thing is that the folks in the car are ok.

It's easy to judge in hindsight, but the abundance of steering lock with no respect for the rear end is what struck me about that crash video.

Originally Posted by PunchIt

The guy in this video tries to catch the car infront of him, and possibly pushes beyond the limits of th car, but he definately took the corner too early. Not sure if he lifted or broke or the front wheels ran onto the inside of the corner and upset the car. At that speed it looks like he was close to 10/10ths and a little upset proved costly.

And this dork wasn't concentrating! He was too busy doing "in-car" commentary.

He didn't seem to be taking what he was doing seriously enough and paid for it... IMHO.

Originally Posted by racerdave

And this dork wasn't concentrating! He was too busy doing "in-car" commentary.

Yeah, the in car commentary is quite comical.

Yeah, especially the end.

OK, who's got the next video? Let the learning continue.

Originally Posted by PunchIt

OK, who's got the next video? Let the learning continue.

Turn 2 - Laguna Seca (1.23mb)

His first problem was he was too busy

I think he got into the corner too hot, the car started understeering pushing him outside and off-camber. He probably corrected, but gave the car too much gas too soon exiting the corner.

Originally Posted by sergiok

Here's another one... what did this guy do wrong?

Oh I remember this one. I had seen it!

Yeah, the last in-car commentary was classic.

Originally Posted by sergiok

Turn 2 - Laguna Seca

Once again STFU and drive!

He's not in a Wal-Mart parking lot, he's at a racetrack with real consequences.

Like our pal in the Subaru at Lime Rock, I seriously think he was too busy talking and thinking about what he was saying to realize the car was that close to the edge, gave it too much gas and that's why it came around.

Obviously surprised the sh!t out of him.

Thankfully he didn't hit anything.

Remember the friction circle concept? This guy needs to revisit it, along with a strip of duct tape for his mouth.

Originally Posted by elbert

His first problem was he was too busy

I think he got into the corner too hot, the car started understeering pushing him outside and off-camber. He probably corrected, but gave the car too much gas too soon exiting the corner.

Actually, it's the instructor that is talking.

He's carrying allot of speed coming into the turn. It's interesting that the instructor is telling him "that's why Laguna is so hard on brakes" because the exit of 1, entrance to 2 is a downhill and he's probably going from 110mph to 125mph into the Andretti Hairpin. He simply didn't slow the car down enough for the turn.

Originally Posted by racerdave

Once again STFU and drive!

Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.

Just trying to have a balanced view here Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.

Originally Posted by Galun

Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.

Just trying to have a balanced view here Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.

True, thing is... on a fast track, you can't talk about the turn you are in... things are happening so fast, you have to talk about 200+ feet in front of you before you ever get to the turn, otherwise, whatever you are talking about is already in the past.

I agree, it seems that he came into the corner too fast. Althought, I don't really know the track, it seems he could be further to the outside and apexed a bit late. Would that have helped? Last, he looks like his reaction time is pretty good, but it seems that if he had been constant on the wheel instead of turning, stopping, then turning again, the tail happy fun could have been under more control. Anyone agree?

Originally Posted by PunchIt

I agree, it seems that he came into the corner too fast. Althought, I don't really know the track, it seems he could be further to the outside and apexed a bit late. Would that have helped? Last, he looks like his reaction time is pretty good, but it seems that if he had been constant on the wheel instead of turning, stopping, then turning again, the tail happy fun could have been under more control. Anyone agree?

Yes, he definitely should have been a bit closer to the turn in cone and he actually earlied this turn. I think this is a 190 degree turn and if you single apex this turn (the racing line is actually a double apex) you have to wait.... wait..... wait... for the qualifying apex to come around.

I did a 2 day tracquest event at Laguna...Sergio's right about the single and double apex...most of the students were single apexing that turn, but you can see why that's not done in a race, because the inside would be wide open for a pass. From what I remember you need to go very deep before starting your turn...so I agree with Sergio that he began the turn too early and early apexed, also with too much steering input...he needed to straighten out the wheel sooner than he did at the end of the turn. I think his high entry speed scared him and that caused him to turn in too early. He could have bled off more speed by waiting to begin the turn in and staying on the brakes, thus giving him a better angle for the apex. That's an excellent and safe corner to practice throttle steering as well. I really had a lot of fun using the throttle to get the car turned so I could be hard on the throttle right at the apex.

Utlimately what sent him around was too much steering and too much throttle in combination.

This is fun.

Originally Posted by racerdave

This is fun.

It sure is. And educational too. Now, if we could somehow make it healthy or profitable

Originally Posted by sergiok

Actually, it's the instructor that is talking.

Oh, it seemed to be the driver yapping about braking.

Originally Posted by sergiok

He's carrying allot of speed coming into the turn.

Yeah, I know. That's what I said.

Originally Posted by PunchIt

It sure is. And educational too. Now, if we could somehow make it healthy or profitable

Step 1: Coment on driving "incedents"
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit

Originally Posted by Galun

Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.

Just trying to have a balanced view here Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.

Well, I certainly understand the instructor's reasoning. You're just verbalizing the same thoughts in your head, which may serve as a good reminder for "brake now, gentle turn-in, ease into the gas, etc."

But like you said... it's the nature of the talk. If you're doing what you and the instructors said about vocalizing, that's one thing. But doing your own "Paul Page" (oh how I hate that toad-man) while your driving (Subaru RS driver) or chit-chatting (Laguna tank slapper) then that's a lack of concentration, no two ways about it.

That said, my favorite way still is to not talk during the run, but pull in after your run and close your eyes and think about your laps... where the car did what, what your inputs were at the time, your line, etc, in order to separate what you are causing the car to do and how the car is handling. It's a good way to separate what the car is doing versus what you are *causing* the car to do.

But since we all learn and respond to things differently, use whichever way works best for you.

But learn from our two buddies about chit-chatting and doing in-car commentary. Don't do it!

My take on in car 'yapping' is that it is track dependent. Some tracks, you simply don't have the time to talk about each turn. There is simply too much happening. Other tracks, there's tons of times between the turns.

Then again, the driver has to be receptive to this 'talking' as well and it's hard at times to listen, comprehend, act while they are also driving. Some people will tune out what the instructor is saying.

Another Laguna Seca clip...

Turn 5 (2.36mb)

Maybe too much braking during turn-in (like he was trying to trail-brake but not doing a good job), snapping the tail out.

Originally Posted by elbert

Maybe too much braking during turn-in (like he was trying to trail-brake but not doing a good job), snapping the tail out.

I remember when I did a track event two years ago, one of the instructors said that the S2000s break free very easily. That anytime they were pushed to the limit and the driver lifted they snap spun.

Any ideas? Maybe something to do with driveline?