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Motorsports, Racing & Track
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  #76  
Old 11-13-2003, 09:00 PM
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elbert elbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
I agree with Stahl on the Viper.
It was either a mechanical failure (but there's no smoke) or a botched downshift like Stahl suggested.
Umm, I said it first.
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  #77  
Old 11-13-2003, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Ah, the GTO... a classic case of being "pushy loose" as the Nascar boys say.

Driver turned into the left-hand (last) part of the chicane slightly too early, was on the power early, then had to keep the wheel turned because he was 1) understeering or 2) running out of track. He should've been straightening the steering at that point, not adding or maintaining lock. The front tires bit, and snapped the rear end around.

So that line error, coupled with excess steering input and gobs of throttle (and the engine getting up on the cam) at the exit = the spin.
He also lifted off the throttle which didn't help.
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  #78  
Old 11-13-2003, 11:21 PM
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Ok guys, here is the definitive story of what happened to the viper, as written by the instructor in the passenger seat. Luckily neither appear to be injured.

http://www.microworks.net/dave/viper.html

I always tell people they should start with an autox prior to going to the track. It allows you to practice shifting/braking/turning at speed with minimal danger to yourself or others.
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  #79  
Old 11-14-2003, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StahlGrauM3
Ok guys, here is the definitive story of what happened to the viper, as written by the instructor in the passenger seat. Luckily neither appear to be injured.

http://www.microworks.net/dave/viper.html
Thanks, that was helpful.
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  #80  
Old 11-14-2003, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunchIt
Thanks, that was helpful.
Yeah, we actually have confirmation (of sorts) of what happened. I feel like those Mythbuster nerds on Discovery channel.
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  #81  
Old 11-14-2003, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elbert
Umm, I said it first.
Hi Doctor Nick!

Sorry... I didn't go back and check who said what first.
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  #82  
Old 11-14-2003, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Hi Doctor Nick!

Sorry... I didn't go back and check who said what first.
No problemo. My self esteem is dependent on the recognition by others, especially those with authority
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  #83  
Old 11-14-2003, 06:58 PM
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OK, looks like we are getting good. Let's get a hard one next.
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  #84  
Old 11-14-2003, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunchIt
OK, looks like we are getting good. Let's get a hard one next.
Ok... this one?


Auto-x spin
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  #85  
Old 11-14-2003, 10:51 PM
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First I think the guy's loaded cuz he's wearing an Arai helmet for autoxing

I'm also guessing he was driving a 911. It's significant because of its, uh, unique character. As he exited the left hander before the (?) chicane, he's on the gas. He realizes too late he's going too fast and lifts. But, unfortunately for him, he hasn't completely straightened out from that previous turn. Lifts the gas, and there goes the tail because that's what older 911's like to do

EDIT: and this was post #964 for me. Sorry, I had to share the coincidence.

Last edited by elbert; 11-14-2003 at 10:54 PM.
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2003, 02:05 PM
m3lieb m3lieb is offline
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Quote:
that shows someone crashing their E36
That would be me, let me see if I can answer some of your comments/questions.

Quote:
I only see one hand on the steering wheel, bad hand positioning.
Both were on the wheel, you just can't see it from the narrow camera lense

Quote:
Yup, and if he had done his recon laps, he would have noticed those tires.
This is my home track, I know it quite well.

Quote:
using slicks AFAI can tell from the photos.
They are Kumho Ecsta V700 (R-comp rain tires). Plus the track was almost dry

Quote:
Don't mean to fault the instructor, and don't want to assume anything, but this guy seemed like he was relatively new to this
He was not an instructor, just a friend along for a ride.

Quote:
I can't believe that he repeatedly lets loose of the wheel and lets it spin back to recenter it, has to correct for it, and the instuctor never says a thing about it!
In lower speed corners, driving a car with as much caster as an M3, you often cannot correct as fast as the wheel will on its own. Not to say it should be done to correct in most situations, but it can be effective in SOME situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm no expert, but this has been taught to me by some VERY experienced, even professional race drivers. This is, obviously, much more useful and applicable to autocross.

Moving on, I think this thread is a great idea. Hopefuly some of you can learn something from this, I know I have. But it is nearly impossible to make a conclusive accedent analyis from an in-car tape. I didn't realize this till it happened to me. I watched the tape 10 min after the wreck and there is so much it doesn't tell I wouldnt know where to begin, especially to someone who has never driven Hallett.

I also admit there were things I could have done better, quicker, and faster, but I was only driving at 8 or 9/10ths. But $hit can and will happen. I chalk it up to experience and will be back at it ASAP.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2003, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3lieb

Moving on, I think this thread is a great idea. Hopefuly some of you can learn something from this, I know I have. But it is nearly impossible to make a conclusive accedent analyis from an in-car tape. I didn't realize this till it happened to me. I watched the tape 10 min after the wreck and there is so much it doesn't tell I wouldnt know where to begin, especially to someone who has never driven Hallett.
Thanks for the approval, and glad to hear you are OK and not affraid to get back on the horse. Good luck.
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  #88  
Old 11-15-2003, 03:27 PM
Galun Galun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Ok... this one?


Auto-x spin
Is it me or is the guy giving too much steering input? He doesn't seem to be very smooth and keep upsetting the balance of the car.
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  #89  
Old 11-15-2003, 04:50 PM
m3lieb m3lieb is offline
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Here’s one of a friend of mines wreck at Hallett. The track was running the opposite direction as when I had my accident, but his impact was only a couple yards away from mine. Unfortunately he found the one spot on the whole strait without tires.

http://www.bobbyjasan.com/movies/mr2_crash.mpeg

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  #90  
Old 11-15-2003, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3lieb
Here’s one of a friend of mines wreck at Hallett.
1. OUCH! His neck looks like it snapped hard.
2. Do you have a longer version of that? Hard to tell what went wrong cause the video starts once the rear end has come loose.

Is the MR2 FWD or RWD?
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  #91  
Old 11-15-2003, 06:52 PM
m3lieb m3lieb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunchIt
1. OUCH! His neck looks like it snapped hard.
2. Do you have a longer version of that? Hard to tell what went wrong cause the video starts once the rear end has come loose.

Is the MR2 FWD or RWD?
No, I just got that off his web page. I’ll ask if he can upload a longer version. The spin was at the end of a pretty high speed sweeper if that helps~. The MR2s are RWD
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  #92  
Old 11-16-2003, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3lieb
That would be me, let me see if I can answer some of your comments/questions.

Hopefuly some of you can learn something from this, I know I have. But it is nearly impossible to make a conclusive accedent analyis from an in-car tape. I didn't realize this till it happened to me. I watched the tape 10 min after the wreck and there is so much it doesn't tell I wouldnt know where to begin, especially to someone who has never driven Hallett.

I also admit there were things I could have done better, quicker, and faster, but I was only driving at 8 or 9/10ths. But $hit can and will happen. I chalk it up to experience and will be back at it ASAP.
Ok, maybe there is more to know that what the tape shows.

But please don't take any of our input in a negative way, no matter how hard that might be. Just be open to it so you can learn from it. Even if you don't agree with all of our comments, just file them away in your brain anyway because they might help you.

As far as the tape goes, we *can* tell what you were doing with the gas pedal, the steering wheel and clutch/shifter, so that offers pretty good "impartial" insight. We can't see inside your head as to what other things were going on, but it's not really relevant as to what caused the spin.

FWIW, I think you trusted the rear end far too much on a drying track, and when it snapped, you weren't ready for it. It's not a matter of reacting faster, it's a matter of *anticipating* what happens when you shift mid-corner as your speeds started getting higher. That's what you ought to take from it.

IMHO!

Again, I'm NOT ripping on you. I've wrecked before... and if I had a camera on it, I'd be one of the subjects here too. I hope you understand what caused the wreck and make the appropriate mental adjustments next time out.

PS -- How's the car coming along? It all repaired yet?
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  #93  
Old 11-16-2003, 06:41 PM
m3lieb m3lieb is offline
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Quote:
Anyway, you can easily tell from the larger vid clip that the conditions are wet......I only see one hand on the steering wheel
Actually, the large vid is not me driving. It is the guy who's web page the vids are posted on, but my car. The smaller file (the crash) is the only one posted where I'm driving. Also, I'm the passenger in the large file ing at my friend to slow down.
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  #94  
Old 11-17-2003, 10:54 PM
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Another clip...

Porsche Kapow (4.15mb)
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  #95  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:25 PM
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Looks like the Porsche pushed off the track, either apexed wrong or lost grip. He then looks like he is guiding the car back on easy, and then either it hooks more than he thought it would, or he was trying to get back into a racing line and didn't see the other car. Maybe he could have gotten back on the track more gradually. Looks like maybe if he lifted to slow down, he it would have helped. I don't think lifting would have caused a spin cause he wasn't really turning at the point where lifting would have helped.
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  #96  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:51 PM
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Yep, what PunchIt said.
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  #97  
Old 11-18-2003, 01:26 PM
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it really sucks to be the guy he hit... i wonder what happened shortly after the clip, looked like the guy was driving over to ask him wassup...
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  #98  
Old 11-18-2003, 02:56 PM
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SergioK SergioK is offline
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You can't tell from the angle of the video clip if he earlied the apex of the turn or was simply carrying too much speed through the turn but he ended up dropping two wheels at the exit. Now, if he hadn't tried to get back on track so soon, he may have saved his car.

It's a classic error, you drop two wheels at the exit of a turn, fight to get the car back on track, as soon as you do, you get thrown to the inside of the turn. Unfortunately in this case, he tagged another car on track.

Lesson learned, drop two wheels, go straight off and re-enter only if you can get back on in a virtual straight line. More times than not though, if you have the run off, just drive straight off and of course, put two feet in. (SMG and slush boxes not apply)
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  #99  
Old 11-19-2003, 12:55 AM
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TGray5 TGray5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiok
You can't tell from the angle of the video clip if he earlied the apex of the turn or was simply carrying too much speed through the turn but he ended up dropping two wheels at the exit. Now, if he hadn't tried to get back on track so soon, he may have saved his car.

It's a classic error, you drop two wheels at the exit of a turn, fight to get the car back on track, as soon as you do, you get thrown to the inside of the turn. Unfortunately in this case, he tagged another car on track.

Lesson learned, drop two wheels, go straight off and re-enter only if you can get back on in a virtual straight line. More times than not though, if you have the run off, just drive straight off and of course, put two feet in. (SMG and slush boxes not apply)
Yeap, the differential in traction between the wheels on the right and left sides of the car often shoots you to the other side of the track. A lot of tracks you can see the tire marks going across the track at high speed corner track out points. Turn 6 comes to mind at Laguna Seca because of the tremenous amount of skid marks going across the track and the high number of cars that plow into the tire barrier on the inside after doing so.

In fact yours truly had a smiliar situation at turn 6 at Willow Springs, but in addition to the traction differential, my rear tire caught a high spot on the edge of the pavement accentuating the movement of the car across the track....luckily there was nothing to hit but I offroaded a good distance down a hill before I could get the car stopped.

It's a lesson that everyone gets taught in the classroom, but one which doesn't really sink in until you've been through it. I remember Carl McGinn (CCA chief instructor) saying how your car can snap across the track before you can blink an eye and I recall thinking...well OK Carl, but that sounds a little dramatic. But after experiencing it, I can tell you he is absolutely right.
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  #100  
Old 11-19-2003, 08:44 AM
Galun Galun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StahlGrauM3
It's a lesson that everyone gets taught in the classroom, but one which doesn't really sink in until you've been through it. I remember Carl McGinn (CCA chief instructor) saying how your car can snap across the track before you can blink an eye and I recall thinking...well OK Carl, but that sounds a little dramatic. But after experiencing it, I can tell you he is absolutely right.
So what should you do when the car starts snapping across the track? Is there anything that one can do to try and save it? This is assuming that the driver did not try to drive in a straight line after dropping two wheels off.
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