Learning from others mistakes

Originally Posted by Galun

So what should you do when the car starts snapping across the track? Is there anything that one can do to try and save it? This is assuming that the driver did not try to drive in a straight line after dropping two wheels off.

I don't think so. Once you try to save the car by inititating too much turn-in, you change the angle of the vehicle and that's what causes the back end to come around thus swinging the car around across the track.

Yeah, if it happens, the only recourse may be to do the Jackie Stewart "both feet in," thing... meaning push the clutch and brake for all you're worth and hope you don't hit anything.

The other reason to come back on the track *very* gradually is that if you do pull the wheel too hard, you might spin before you even get to the pavement, in which case a spin in the dirt may cause your wheels to dig in and flip you over.

Originally Posted by racerdave

The other reason to come back on the track *very* gradually is that if you do pull the wheel too hard, you might spin before you even get to the pavement, in which case a spin in the dirt may cause your wheels to dig in and flip you over.

As what happened in the Subaru rollover vid clip (Lime Rock).

Not sure which track this is...

Corvette wreck (6.8mb)

Originally Posted by The HACK

Spun around for a big 720 at Buttwillow..

Even at speed, if you get a little squiggly you can still correct. Hopefully you'll be able to catch yourself before you drop a wheel.

I can't ID the track either. No biggie.

Anyway, the guy wrecked at the exit of a right-left set of quick esses.

IMHO, he missed the apex of the right-hander, which put him wide on the exit of the right-hander and shallow on the entrance of the left-hander.

The result is yet another lesson we all should make sure we learn: Pushy loose. That's Nascar talk for snap oversteer at the exit caused by understeer either from 1) a bad line (like in this case) or simple understeer.

The driver was probably intent on catching the car in front, so when this bad line was taken, he decided to dial in some extra steering lock to compensate while not modulating the gas much if at all. The front end responded by turning more and that, coupled with the heavy throttle application, caused the rear to break loose suddenly and our poor subject to eat guardrail and grass.

From what I can tell, right at the 1:43 minute marker, you can see a bit of elevation change in the track. I think his line was a bit sharp and right at this point the track goes from a slight uphill to a slight downhill and because of the amount of steering input he had set, in combination with the reduced traction, the back end just lost traction.

He seemed to be early apexing quite a bit, possibly as a result of focusing on the car in front of him. I also noticed that he wasn't opening up the wheel enough after the apexes and tracking out enough. Possibly he did not open the wheel enough and applied too much throttle and the rear end started coming around??? Was there some type of 2 way radio in the car? that could have added to the distraction.

Yeah, I'll agree with the not tracking out far enough too. Where he spun, he certainly didn't seem to be on his way to taking the car to the outside edge of the pavement. And considering his early apex on the left-hander (forced by his poor line and exit in the right-hander), not taking the car out to the edge was even more of a mistake.

This is not only fun, but it is certainly instructive... I like it because the more of this I see and try to break down, the more aware of pitfalls I can be in my own driving.

In this clip though, he starts to lose the rear end just after the apex of the turn. There is a slight downhill just after the apex too. I think he needed to unwind the wheel a little earlier and perhaps get on the throttle more.

I dunno, I thought he was well past the apex. But my video was choppy on no matter what machine I played it back on...

But I totally agree on the "unwind" part.

I kind laughed when I saw this one....

Best Motoring Honda S2000 crash 1.8mb

Was that in-car commentary or was it dubbed in afterward? I realize that there is a separate commentator when they went to the outside shot, but what about the driver?

Regardless, it was awfully amusing. I don't speak Japanese, but the inflection was what made it funny.

Now, as for the "off," 1) he was not very smooth with either the throttle or the steering wheel (although I've got to give him some slack because being smooth on the S2000's thottle at those revs cannot be real easy), and 2) his curb-hob was extremely ill-timed.

I really think the curb hop did him in, but all in all, this guy was a hack. (no offense Hack )

Originally Posted by racerdave

but all in all, this guy was a hack. (no offense Hack )

Originally Posted by racerdave

I really think the curb hop did him in...

Agreed.

Ok, Here's one... from a pro! (although some may debate that term in this case)

I can't link to it directly, so bear with me. It's linked off the large "feature" photo on the upper left of the main window.

Trust me, it's worth it, and should offer some good feedback from the group.

http://www.autocarmag.com/movies.asp

Originally Posted by racerdave

Ok, Here's one... from a pro! (although some may debate that term in this case)

I can't link to it directly, so bear with me. It's linked off the large "feature" photo on the upper left of the main window.

Trust me, it's worth it, and should offer some good feedback from the group.

http://www.autocarmag.com/movies.asp

That is UNREAL!! That's Montoya isn't it? Wholly cow, where do we even start?

WAY too fast into the corner.
Should be further outside
started turn too early, then stopped the turn, then tried to start again.


I'm suprised they weren't hurt.

No, that's "Jungle Boy" Antonio Pizzonia... which is why he was driving the Jag. And probably yet another reason why he *wasn't* driving the Jag F1 car at the end of the year.

First and foremost, he didn't seem to comprehend he was driving a SEDAN and not the F1 car! Entrance speed was WAY out of the park! He may have forgotten he had SEDAN brakes too.

Other than that, PunchIt hit it. I can't believe he flubbed the turn-in that bad! To do a two-step on turn in like that is so "amateur," and not something an F1 driver should be pulling.

I *love* the reaction of the passenger in the shot of their faces. Once they're into the braking zone he says, "No way," or something like that.

I'd hazard a guess to say that if the passenger was driving, they'd not have crashed!

Ok... now, considering how bad he flubbed the entrance speed, what could he have done to mitigate the destruction?

Originally Posted by racerdave

Ok... now, considering how bad he flubbed the entrance speed, what could he have done to mitigate the destruction?

If he straightlined the gravel trap, the car might not have flipped, but he would have impacted the wall hard. Even with the car flipping it was pretty close the wall.

Yeah, the wall does seem relatively close. It's hard to say without seeing the track in person (looks like Turn 1 at Barcelona) what the better option would've been.

He really buggered that up though, didn't he?

Originally Posted by racerdave

He really buggered that up though, didn't he?

Oh yeah. I thought it was funny how the passenger put his arm on the ceiling well in advance, as if he already knew the car was going to flip.

Let's continue the learning curve...



Sears Point - Ferrari Spin - 3.3mb

Where did this guy run out of talent?

Seems like he had way too much steering input at the track out curbing, indicating an early apex. If he had straightened out the wheel and stayed on the throttle, he could have run off the track on the left at trackout and possible kept the car from hitting the wall. Luckily what he hit was a styrofoam barrier and not a concrete one. An expensive mistake non-the-less.

Originally Posted by sergiok

Let's continue the learning curve...



Sears Point - Ferrari Spin - 3.3mb

Where did this guy run out of talent?

Gee... I just started reading this thread today.... I missed a lot of the fun! Good learning material for sure.

Hmm.. looks to me like me missed BOTH apexes.... the first one he was a bit off... and he had to do some correction because it looks like the car already appeared to rotate too much... this caused him to completely miss the apex on the right and he ran out of track putting two off probably.... then he tried to save it instead of going straight off, resulting in the spin?

Reminds me of something Tom Bell said in a class session... something big like that is usually a compounding of several mistakes all in succession and on an extremely tight and technical course, you screw up one turn in a string of turns, and the whole thing is pretty much shot.

Ok, Mr. Ferrari...

I really don't think he missed the first apex (left-hander) much if at all, and it really didn't matter... He was well-positioned at the exit.

As for the right-hander, I think it's more a matter of him taking the wrong line. The turn is obviously more of a late-apex and he entered it *way* too early and simply ran out of road at the exit.

The nature of the corner (being on a hump) means he couldn't see that he was running out of room until it was too late.

That error was compounded by the fact that he was applying throttle from turn-in on... and when he realized he was running out of road, he lifted, upset the balance (a good lesson about trailing-throttle oversteer in a mid-engined car) and spun, probably even before his wheels hit the dirt.

Ok... now the learning part again.

Assuming he made the same error, what could he have done to avoid the spin at the exit?