Learning from others mistakes

Originally Posted by vaio76109

Long video, am I looking for one point in particular?

Not too long into it the driver spins. Never catching up to that 240sx again.

Originally Posted by vaio76109

Also a reason why "fast" driving should be kept on track. I presume he hit the brakes because he saw the motorcycle, but maybe he didnt. What if the motorcycle was 2 seconds behind from where it was?

Kind of hard to see... but what I'm guessing is he was a little further left (almost crossing the double yellow) than he probably wanted to be, saw the motorcyclist, got on the brakes mid-turn (and possibly even added steering lock to avoid the bike) and voila....

Originally Posted by misterlance

http://www.brannfors.com/~erik/video...1002_small.wmv

Looks like maybe he added too much lock on the wheel too quickly while still on the power? Kinda happens so fast and it's hard to see out the front... plus my wet driving experience is very minimal at best... not to mention this is at club race level too.

found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/alb...oCrashOnly.avi

Originally Posted by ayn

found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/alb...oCrashOnly.avi

Wow.... I..... I'm.... speechless....

Any idea what organization that was? I want to be sure to avoid them....

Sloppy everything everywhere by everyone....

Don't see anything wrong with the event. Driver lost control and crashed the car. He probably shouted several 4-letter words. I am sure he will get it repaired and get back on the track soon. That's about it. It's not like someone crashed into him or he crashed into a another car due to lack of corner workers. There are a lot of events out there with open passing. As someone being passed, all you need to do is know when to slow down, point by if needed and the more experienced driver behind will take the hint. I have been in the being-passed and passing situations before. No big deal. You learn to deal with it.

Don't mind me saying this. I think CCA conditioned us WAY too much to think that everyone should behave a certain way. Not to mention the security blanket they put on us is way too thick. It's good for the novices. But there comes a point where we have this fear of attending other events. I have been there so I can vouch for that. I am sure there are others who feel the same way. Please chime in. I admit that my earlier posts about STUSA and SV were very critical. Since then I have completely changed my views about non-CCA events. Rather than critizing those events, why not learn something from these events instead? I overcame the challenges of dealing with aggressive drivers on the track and I learned how to anticipate irrational drivers who show signs of loosing it in front of me and learning how to avoid them if they do spin. All of which I can never pick up from CCA events because simply, these can't be taught by an instructor.

Gosh, even DCI's latest newsletter use this as a marketing point, along the line of if you attend open track without instruction you are practicing bad habits. Do they really need this to boost their attendence? Lower the price for once. If my bad habit is pushing the limit and that allows me to shave a second off every lap, I'd rather go for it.

The way I look at track driving, either do it to the limit or don't do it at all.

Again, not directed you John. Just sharing a view in general.

Originally Posted by ayn

found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/alb...oCrashOnly.avi

So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate?

Originally Posted by SergioK

So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate?

Hard to tell because I couldn't really hear/see what the driver was doing. Looks like he tried to correct, but ended up just losing it... possibly trailing throttle oversteer? When he corrected, it seems like he didn't transfer weight to the right and add power to get the car to go right. Seems like the most of the weight was still on the front. I was also wondering after he countersteered, why he straighted it out when he was still on pavement and not going the right way... Just a guess since I don't know if there are any things we need to handle differently in a AWD car, but I didn't think it should be THAT different... anyone who knows AWD vehicles well care to share their input?

My observations were just about everyone there was sloppy and all over the place. I'm not saying this is the fault of the organization holding the event, but I just don't want to be around those guys on track at the same time.

It looks like he barely countersteered at all. He tried too hard to stay on the 911's tail, went too hot into the turn, lost the ass, and didn't counter enough. The amount of opposite lock he dialed in looked like it wouldn't have even been enough to avoid tapping the wall even if he had been at a dead stop on the track and was just slowly driving towards it.

The lessons I take from this are 1) drive your own car, not the one in front of you. Just because he can take a turn at x mph doesn't mean you can. 2) When correcting oversteer it's allowable to apply more than a couple of degrees of opposite lock...

To me, it looks like he simply went in a bit too fast (or his tires were simply overheated) and earlied the first part. There is also a slight elevation/camber change which affects overall traction right at that section, but he should have accounted for that anyhow.

Originally Posted by doeboy

My observations were just about everyone there was sloppy and all over the place. I'm not saying this is the fault of the organization holding the event, but I just don't want to be around those guys on track at the same time.

Where are the instructors?

Those guys were all over the place, and clearly should not be out there solo.

If this is a lapping day, I certainly hope that they have no timing, or good luck getting insurance to cover the pwnzd Evo.

OK, my post got lost.

1) At about 14:15 in the video he goes off line to let someone pass (I do NOT like the idea of the one being passed going off line, unless they are VERY slow, likebedding pads or scrubbing tires). He goes into teh gravel, you can hear it pinging the underside of the car.

2) This is th efirst hard left after getting gravel and junk on his right side tires.

3) The car comes around slightly, he makes a small countersteer, then he LOOKS AT THE WALL. Watch his head. At that time, the countersteer comes out, and he hits the wall. You GO where you are LOOKING, and he looked at the wall. rather than down the course. Too bad, because he was doing a pretty good job of turning his head for corners up to that point, but didn't keep doing that when he spun.

He may also not have gotten both feet in, most people tend to not lock up the brakes, which really does help.

Originally Posted by doeboy

Wow.... I..... I'm.... speechless....

Any idea what organization that was? I want to be sure to avoid them....

Sloppy everything everywhere by everyone....

It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.

more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488

Originally Posted by SergioK

So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate?

From the discussion at NorCalEvo, sounded like he gave too much throttle, you can see that red light at the turbo gauge coming on way early at the turn. He didn't even try to save it, it's hard to say, but maybe he could've left-foot braked a bit to scrub off some speed and make the turn... walls are scary...

Originally Posted by ayn

It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.

more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488

Most of those guys in the video were not closed to being on line, including the Evo driver.

How they were signed off to go solo is beyond me.

Originally Posted by ayn

It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.

more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488

I see.... yeah my remark was more because I don't want to be around those particular drivers on that track... and if they regularly attend that particular organization's events... guess whose events I'm avoiding...

they were seriously ALL OVER the place... it was scary to watch some of the lines they took...

You should have seen the B Group at Octoberfest.

Solo doesn't necessarily mean you are always ont he line, only that you know when you are not, and what to do when that happens. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, it is just how you handle them that makes some of us who we are and MS who he is.

Early power may have helped get this started, but with sticky tires it can take a full lap to clean all the gravel off a tire. And like I said, watch his head, he corrects until he looks at the wall, then he drives into the wall. COMMON mistake.

Originally Posted by Stuka

If this is a lapping day, I certainly hope that they have no timing, or good luck getting insurance to cover the pwnzd Evo.

It's not like if you crash you car at a CCA event you would report to the insurance company with 100% facts. Maybe you might, but I know lot of people don't.

I get it John. The drivers not the event.

In that case, I doubt you will like me very much around you. I try left-foot braking and different lines everytime I go out to BW.

Originally Posted by doeboy

I see.... yeah my remark was more because I don't want to be around those particular drivers on that track... and if they regularly attend that particular organization's events... guess whose events I'm avoiding...

they were seriously ALL OVER the place... it was scary to watch some of the lines they took...

Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift

It's not like if you crash you car at a CCA event you would report to the insurance company with 100% facts. Maybe you might, but I know lot of people don't.

I am not going to any event where they let people who are so hopelessly off line soloing. Again, where are the instructors?

I know of two incidents where this was properly handled and the insurance paid without reporting less than "100% fact," which has another name, insurance fraud.

So you are saying that you know lots of people who have had incidents (there aren't even that many to being with) at CCA events commit insurance fraud to get coverage?

Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift

I get it John. The drivers not the event.

In that case, I doubt you will like me very much around you. I try left-foot braking and different lines everytime I go out to BW.

Well I think I can usually spot a difference between "ok he might be trying a different line" and "wtf is he doing WAY over there?" Some of the cars in the video were in a completely wrong place... different line or not...

Here we go again...

Am I referring just to West Coast CCA events? FYI, I know people on the east coast taking CCA events as well.

I went off big time at Big Willow with OTR early this Jan. I reported like it is. My insurance covered it and told me to drive safe at future events. I paid the deductible as a lesson well learnt.

So tell me about the two incidents to your best knowledge (biased of course) that were handled properly. Did the owners/drivers reported the claim as "an accident at a track event"? Or did they adopt the "don't ask don't tell" policy? Exact words in the claim report, mind you. An insurance fraud constitutes any deviation/s from the truth (time, venue, parties involved etc) of the incident.

And even if they did report as is, doesn't mean the others would. I am sure there are more than 2 incidents at CCA events lately. Hey, I know pple at working at Big Willow, Calif Speed and BW. Not participating in CCA events doesn't mean I am clueless of what happened.

Please, stop rolling your eyes. Cos I didn't roll mine at you.

Originally Posted by Stuka

I am not going to any event where they let people who are so hopelessly off line soloing. Again, where are the instructors?

I know of two incidents where this was properly handled and the insurance paid without reporting less than "100% fact," which has another name, insurance fraud.

So you are saying that you know lots of people who have had incidents (there aren't even that many to being with) at CCA events commit insurance fraud to get coverage?

Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift

Here we go again...

Am I referring just to West Coast CCA events? FYI, I know people on the east coast taking CCA events as well.

I don't know, are you? I thought we were talking about CA tracks and CA events because of the last video.

Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift

I went off big time at Big Willow with OTR early this Jan. I reported like it is. My insurance covered it and told me to drive safe at future events. I paid the deductible as a lesson well learnt.

What does reporting it like it is mean? Was it timed? Did the event allow timing? If so, I am amazed that your carrier covered it, since most policy has an exclusion for timed events, and this is why CCA is very Nazi about this. I certainly don't want my policy voided because some guy decided to time his mad skills.

Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift

So tell me about the two incidents to your best knowledge (biased of course) that were handled properly. Did the owners/drivers reported the claim as "an accident at a track event"? Or did they adopt the "don't ask don't tell" policy? Exact words in the claim report, mind you. An insurance fraud constitutes any deviation/s from the truth (time, venue, parties involved etc) of the incident.

Look, the first incident happened in 02, and if you want sources, I suggest that you check with the SD chapter.

The second incident, well, you shouldn't need to ask.

Look, all that I and some others are saying is that we would rather not go to some events where they allow people who clearly needed instruction in a big way to solo. So yes, any events that don't reign in its drivers is not of any interest to me.

Originally Posted by ayn

It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.

Not as dangerous at it USED to be. I'd never been to SP before the removal of the hills in that section so I can't comment on how it used to be but I have heard that it was even more treacherous in the past.

Either way, most tracks have some dangerous spots. Any driver must get a lay of the land initially and then build their speed up gradually.

Originally Posted by SergioK

Not as dangerous at it USED to be. I'd never been to SP before the removal of the hills in that section so I can't comment on how it used to be but I have heard that it was even more treacherous in the past.

You are correct sir.

As an example, that Evo would most likely been on it's ROOF in the "old" days, since there used to be a hill right there where he went off. Nicely sloped for maximum vehicle inversion

And don't even get me started on the front straight that would cross the dragstrip. In the rain, you couldn't even WALK on it - it was like ice.

And just a couple of random comments on other items expressed here. Most track groups/events aren't run anywhere CLOSE to the way CCA events are run. For example, only Novice groups are required to have instructors at many of them. Many of these groups are able to offer the attendees cheaper prices (for various reasons) so a lot of drivers go for these "low-cost" events and many times don't get the type of instruction many of us here are used to.

Having said that, the lines and overall driving I saw on that video were not all that uncommon for non-CCA events - and I've been to a lot of them (if they've held a track event in NoCal in the last 7 years, I've driven with them ). And as some have expressed, those events may not necessarily be suitable for the Novice driver, but as one becomes an Intermediate and Advanced driver and begins looking for additional track time, there are benefits to other groups. If you developed the RIGHT skills (line, car control, track awareness <-- most important IMNSHO) then you can not only survive one of these events but actually enjoy it and maybe even learn something from it (even if it's "I don't EVER want to run with them again").

Anyway, sorry for the long sorta-rant. I'm the first to recommend CCA schools, and give them nearly all the credit for my skill development, but these "other" groups definitely have a place and provide more choice and resources for the "track junkie"

Cheers,
Jim