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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 05-13-2010, 01:37 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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So you're predicting that Benz's E class is toast - and a lot of their buyers will jump to the new 5er?

European sales figures don't support your hypothesis. "Within the product portfolio, the new models of the E-Class continued to post very strong growth, with customer deliveries of the sedan rising by 52 percent to 17,200 units." The 5er has been on sale in Europe since mid March, and press a few months before that.

Plus Benz is bringing out some much needed new engines shortly. I personally think the status quo will remain roughly the same for BMW and Benz. Lexus may lose some sales due to the older GS, and Infiniti M will remain a smaller player in the segment.

As much as I'm a BMW loyalist, I consider how much Benz would have to do to get me into an E. Thinking oppositely, I don't think BMW has done enough to bring over the Benz buyers to the BMW fold.
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Last edited by chrischeung; 05-13-2010 at 02:12 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-13-2010, 03:08 PM
kimluk kimluk is offline
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When will it come to SoCal?

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  #28  
Old 05-13-2010, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I disagree.

BMW's goal was to make the 5er more appealing to Lexus and Benz buyers - grow their market share. I don't think they have done enough to get those folks. Sure, it's a very good BMW 5er, but it's not the segment changer they were targeting. Cars like the BMW E30, first Lexus LS400, W126 Benz S-Class, Honda NSX were in that realm. Those cars made current competition passe, resulting in huge market swings. Cars that sold for MSRP - or more.

Not going to happen with the F10.
I think the F10 will move the market share needle. I've driven my E39 for ten years. I didn't bite on the E60 since it wasn't a big enough improvement over the E39 or anything else in my view. The F10 was a slam dunk as soon as I saw it -- interior, exterior, performance, power, technology, comfort, safety -- it's all there. I'll bet there are many people in the same boat as me. It'll take share from all other mid-size high-end sedans and also from the 7 series. It'll bring back waves of buyers that passed on the E60.
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  #29  
Old 05-13-2010, 04:47 PM
baloo588 baloo588 is offline
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Don't forget, many E classes are Taxis in Europe!
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  #30  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:24 PM
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I too like the F10 - alot. That said, I plan to wait a year or two before swapping out my E39 for something that might prove to be problem prone. The high pressure fuel pump issue in the E60 535i has never been addressed properly which is acting to greatly diminish resale of that model. The F10 is an unknown. BMW can not afford a bad reputation; there's simply too much good competition in the marketplace.
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  #31  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:28 PM
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I have to disagree too, the new BMW 5 series won me over. I have a 2006 W211 E Class that I bought in lieu of the E60. My plan, since the day I purchased the W211, was to get the new W212 E class in 2010. When it came out I was underwhelmed to say the least and thankfully the F10 came along and now I am a convert to BMW.
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2010, 10:24 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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This is what I think we won't see:

- Folks finding it hard to get an allocation build slot (6 month+ waiting periods)
- MSRP, or near MSRP deals
- High stock turnover
- Uncompetitive lease rates after 6 months
- The motoring press gushing over the car

I recall the days when the E46 M3 was launched and dealerships had waiting lists of 50+. The F10 won't generate that kind of demand.

Bottom line, after about 1 year, I think we'll be +-10% difference in market share compared to the long term status quo. OK - I'll get off my soapbox, and let the car's sales performance speak for itself.
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Last edited by chrischeung; 05-14-2010 at 08:37 AM.
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  #33  
Old 05-14-2010, 08:42 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo588 View Post
Don't forget, many E classes are Taxis in Europe!
I'm not drawing the connection. Taxi companies don't follow model cycles when ordering cars as far as I know. They just buy new cars when it's most cost effective. ie. when it is cheaper to run a new car compared to the current one. I was in Europe last month, and I didn't see many new E's as taxis.
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  #34  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:50 PM
Big Pete Big Pete is offline
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Thanks for the pics. The car is starting to look really good.
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  #35  
Old 05-14-2010, 01:47 PM
zibawala zibawala is offline
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m5 was 10-12k mark up, same m6
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  #36  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:35 PM
baloo588 baloo588 is offline
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I'm drawing a connection. I was in Europe last fall, and trust me there were quite some NEW E-Class taxis around Germany, France, Belgium, etc.
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  #37  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:08 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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But wouldn't that be explained by regular fleet turnover? How can you be sure that E class sales are extraordinarily successful due to additional taxi fleet sales? Nothing I've seen in the press supports that opinion. Remember, the W212 has been out for over a year. So if the life cycle of a taxi is 10 years on average, give or take, then 10% of Benz taxis would be the current model.

Also, consider that you are more likely to subconsciously notice a new model than an old. Older versions of cars tend to "blend" into the background more. For example, I didn't notice how many E65s I saw on the drive to work today, but I certainly noticed the number of F01s.
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Last edited by chrischeung; 05-14-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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  #38  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:39 PM
Munich77 Munich77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
This is what I think we won't see:

- Folks finding it hard to get an allocation build slot (6 month+ waiting periods)
- MSRP, or near MSRP deals
- High stock turnover
- Uncompetitive lease rates after 6 months
- The motoring press gushing over the car

I recall the days when the E46 M3 was launched and dealerships had waiting lists of 50+. The F10 won't generate that kind of demand.

Bottom line, after about 1 year, I think we'll be +-10% difference in market share compared to the long term status quo. OK - I'll get off my soapbox, and let the car's sales performance speak for itself.
You might be right about that. But then again the economy is still in rough shape. Not that many people can afford to pay $55K plus for a car!
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  #39  
Old 05-14-2010, 05:00 PM
rudegar rudegar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I'm not drawing the connection. Taxi companies don't follow model cycles when ordering cars as far as I know. They just buy new cars when it's most cost effective. ie. when it is cheaper to run a new car compared to the current one. I was in Europe last month, and I didn't see many new E's as taxis.
The connection might be that taxis diminish the image of a car's exclusivity. Mercedes however is a European standard so I do not think the effect in Germany is that of a Taurus taxi in the U.S. Also I think the use of the black E class as private taxis and limos does not have the same negative connotation that has dogged Lincoln because of the Town Car.

On the issue of life in a “5er” after an E, I am a convert and think this point should be made: After an E28 and 2 E39s I felt BMW had abandoned my tastes with the E60 whose odd new design was "stepping out" The feel was so driver-engaging that it didn’t fit my use. I faced it - 90% of the time I was cruising on broken pavement freeways talking on the phone or sitting in traffic. The E500 I drive with Airmatic is perfect for that. And the E-class can boogie when necessary - it is a wonderful driving car. Admittedly my E39 540i Sport had better steering, road grip, handling and feel; but darn it, my butt was giggled half to death. My son told me "Dad, BMW hasn’t abandoned you -- you just got old." OK, thanks son. Now the F10 comes along - more conservative styling (CHECK), better ride (CHECK) with 4 settings including "COMFORT!!" for heaven's sake. It’s bigger and more luxurious (CHECK). Fabulous interior and much more technology than the E (CHECK). So I feel as if BMW has come back to my tastes and use. At the same time, commentators have noted that the W212 E-class “returned to Mercedes values”. That is amusing because it seems to include things I left BMW for as well as other negatives– angular harsh styling, clunky looking seats, interior center stack that looks like the W210 (which I NEVER LIKED).

I havn't signed on the dotted line yet, but after waiting for a W212, it looks like the F10 will get me behind the wheel.
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  #40  
Old 05-14-2010, 05:03 PM
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Just received my invitation for the driving event in San Francisco, i was given the choice of just driving the 5 series, or 5 series vs Audi A6 or Merc E. Happens June 12th. I chose the 5 series vs the Audi, SO loves Audi so I thought that it would be good to tell him how superior the 5 is, LOL.
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  #41  
Old 05-14-2010, 05:49 PM
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have they substituted ...

an Audi for the Lexus GS350?
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  #42  
Old 05-14-2010, 08:04 PM
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Finally rec'd my invite for ultimate driving event here in San Diego. I Registered and event is June 5th. But I may already have my F10 550i by then....it lands on May 27.
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  #43  
Old 05-15-2010, 01:27 AM
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Finally rec'd my invite for ultimate driving event here in San Diego. I Registered and event is June 5th. But I may already have my F10 550i by then....it lands on May 27.
When is it and how do you get an invite? I really want to test drive the 550i before ordering...
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  #44  
Old 05-15-2010, 10:51 AM
bbmertz bbmertz is offline
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Sounds like there are F10 events on June 5th in San Diego and June 12th in San Francisco. Anyone know when one will be held in Los Angeles?
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  #45  
Old 05-15-2010, 11:31 AM
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I read that F10's delivered in the US will not be released until June 19th, it is in one of the earlier threads.
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  #46  
Old 05-15-2010, 06:16 PM
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When is it and how do you get an invite? I really want to test drive the 550i before ordering...
call the number I posted in an earlier post and when they ask if you got an invitation tell them your CA, Mr. xyz of ABC BMW invited you. Unless they do it differently in Cali there won't be an opportunity to drive the 550, only the 535.

I don't know how it will be in Cali, but here in Fort Worth/Dallas they took walk ups if the "class" wasn't full. I did it twice and I probably could have done it all four sessions.
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  #47  
Old 05-15-2010, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
So you're predicting that Benz's E class is toast - and a lot of their buyers will jump to the new 5er?

European sales figures don't support your hypothesis. "Within the product portfolio, the new models of the E-Class continued to post very strong growth, with customer deliveries of the sedan rising by 52 percent to 17,200 units." The 5er has been on sale in Europe since mid March, and press a few months before that.

Plus Benz is bringing out some much needed new engines shortly. I personally think the status quo will remain roughly the same for BMW and Benz. Lexus may lose some sales due to the older GS, and Infiniti M will remain a smaller player in the segment.

As much as I'm a BMW loyalist, I consider how much Benz would have to do to get me into an E. Thinking oppositely, I don't think BMW has done enough to bring over the Benz buyers to the BMW fold.
Did two driving cycles in the F10 535, the E350 and the GS350. That's 12 times around the circuit in the Bimmer and 6 times in both the E350 and GS350. All equipped very similarly. No sport packages or any other fancy suspension stuff. Surprisingly the GS out drove the E. Quite frankly the E really was a dog. It had the most body roll, the weakest engine that worked the tranny really hard and, relative to the other two, pretty sloppy handling. One of the BMW reps said at one event (I think Atlanta) there was a particularly tight turn and he saw the Merc lift the outside rear tire more than once.

The new 5er (no sport package) is not ground breaking in terms of exterior styling, but it is the class leader in handling by a very big margin. One young guy who was in my car and I don't think had ever driven a bimmer was absolutely wowed by the 5er. He could not believe how much better it handled than the GS and E.

I don't know if the F10 will bring old Benz buyers over to BMW, but it will definitely bring E60 non - buyers who went to Benz back to BMW. I think the E60 was great and I think the F10 is even better, even if it doesn't break new design ground. I don't think the 5er will cannibalize 7er sales. It is quite a different car. Much more "5 Series" sized inside and out than the 7er. I don't think the 7er tech goodies that the 5er now offers are going to lure 7er buyers. The 740i and Li will be the cars that lure former 750i and Li owners to something less expensive.

As I previously predicted in this thread the F10 535 absolutely beat the E350 with a stick. And it was not a mild beating.
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  #48  
Old 05-15-2010, 08:38 PM
2008550I 2008550I is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
When is it and how do you get an invite? I really want to test drive the 550i before ordering...
It's @ South County BMW and I rec'd an email invite with my choice of times (I got my 2008 from them & all my service). Suggest you give them a call.
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  #49  
Old 05-16-2010, 01:42 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
As I previously predicted in this thread the F10 535 absolutely beat the E350 with a stick. And it was not a mild beating.
Any prediction on F10 sales vs the competition overall? How is Benz able to sell any E's if it is such a bad car?

Remember, the Benz is about 10% cheaper than the F10 - and that's before discounting. The real world price differential is about 15% - or $10K, give or take. For enthusiasts, that's a drop in the ocean. But for the general buyer, that's not an inconsiderable sum. The median age of buyers in the 5er segment is in their 50s - will they really value driving dynamics over ride? Did BMW make advances in areas where Merc (styling, prestige, safety) and Lexus (sales and service, build quality, comfort) are leaders? If you want to gain market share, you need to better the opposition at their own game, not just your own. Think NSX and Lexus LS400. They weren't only just good Hondas and Toyotas - they were ground breakers. What about the F10 makes it a ground breaking car?

The biggest threat to BMW may not be Merc - but Audi. The A6 will be out "last", and have the benefit of seeing what everyone has already done. Plus Audi is doing really well in Germany, and may be carrying a bit of momentum. If anything, Audi marketing has recently been a bit sharper than BMW IMHO.
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  #50  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Any prediction on F10 sales vs the competition overall? How is Benz able to sell any E's if it is such a bad car?

Remember, the Benz is about 10% cheaper than the F10 - and that's before discounting. The real world price differential is about 15% - or $10K, give or take. For enthusiasts, that's a drop in the ocean. But for the general buyer, that's not an inconsiderable sum. The median age of buyers in the 5er segment is in their 50s - will they really value driving dynamics over ride? Did BMW make advances in areas where Merc (styling, prestige, safety) and Lexus (sales and service, build quality, comfort) are leaders? If you want to gain market share, you need to better the opposition at their own game, not just your own. Think NSX and Lexus LS400. They weren't only just good Hondas and Toyotas - they were ground breakers. What about the F10 makes it a ground breaking car?

The biggest threat to BMW may not be Merc - but Audi. The A6 will be out "last", and have the benefit of seeing what everyone has already done. Plus Audi is doing really well in Germany, and may be carrying a bit of momentum. If anything, Audi marketing has recently been a bit sharper than BMW IMHO.
I think the new 5er is going to be a big hit in the North American market. Whether or not it increases BMW's market share I don't know. Everybody whines about BMW interiors. Well, this one ought to silence just about all that whining; especially in comparisons to Audi.

I think the new 5er will hit Audi harder than it will hit Merc. You mention Audi's new A6 will have the benefit of being the newest car on the block. Audi is going to have to do some serious engineering to best the 5er and I don't think they will be able to do it. The new 5er is a serious RWD driver's car. Audi starts at a disadvantage, because their design starts with a FWD bias and there ain't no FWD car that can do what the RWD F10 5er can do. Audi's other disadvantage is that on top of the great car the 5er starts out as it will also be available in xDrive format which will give it a further advantage in the Northeast.

BMW has upped the luxury factor on the F10, but I'm not sure it will be enough to bring over many Lexus GS buyers. BMW's just aren't their driving style. I think it will be enough to bring in new Audi and Merc buyers. The new interior is very elegant. The Merc E interior is harsh and hard and choppy. The whole Merc E looks to me like it was designed by various committees that were not allowed to talk to each other. But, I think hardcore Merc buyers will disagree with me.

Price wise I think BMW will do well by offering the F10 528i with its up-rated NA I6 engine. The new 528i will have 240 hp, but the big jump is in the torque; it will have 230 lb/ft tq. That should be enough to motivate it off the line at a discernibly quicker clip than the current E60 528i with 230hp and 200 lb/ft tq.
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