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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 06-01-2010, 11:18 AM
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Interesting.
Kind of what I thought too about the Jurids...
I am hoping I will not fall into the same boat when installing the Axxis Ultimates...
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  #52  
Old 06-01-2010, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
Interesting.
Kind of what I thought too about the Jurids...
I am hoping I will not fall into the same boat when installing the Axxis Ultimates...
I can't believe you would say that after all the feedback on the ultimates - they are in a different category than the pads Bluebee installed on her car.
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  #53  
Old 06-01-2010, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
I can't believe you would say that after all the feedback on the ultimates - they are in a different category than the pads Bluebee installed on her car.
LOL!

I know.
he-he...
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  #54  
Old 06-01-2010, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
I can't believe you would say that after all the feedback on the ultimates - they are in a different category than the pads Bluebee installed on her car.
Are you sure about that?

In the first half of this thread we pretty much got about half the references to say the PBR Deluxe Advanced were exactly the same pads as the Axxis Deluxe Advanced ...

As far as I know, NOBODY has shown anything that proves otherwise (but I do agree, as we said earlier, just "asking" people and we get both answers).

What we need is someone, who knows better than Zeckhausen and Turner (who gave conflicting information on this topic) whether or not the Axxis Deluxe Advanced are the same or are not the same as the PBR Deluxe Advanced pads.

References would be great!
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  #55  
Old 06-01-2010, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Are you sure about that?

In the first half of this thread we pretty much got about half the references to say the PBR Deluxe Advanced were exactly the same pads as the Axxis Deluxe Advanced ...

As far as I know, NOBODY has shown anything that proves otherwise (but I do agree, as we said earlier, just "asking" people and we get both answers).

What we need is someone, who knows better than Zeckhausen and Turner (who gave conflicting information on this topic) whether or not the Axxis Deluxe Advanced are the same or are not the same as the PBR Deluxe Advanced pads.

References would be great!
I will call Turner again tomorrow.
I am pretty positive of what Turner told me on the phone.
I will try talking to Will Turner or Doug.
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  #56  
Old 06-02-2010, 05:53 AM
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I have used Axxis Deluxe pads for many years on different cars but on my next brake job i will install Textar pads.
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  #57  
Old 06-02-2010, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Are you sure about that?

In the first half of this thread we pretty much got about half the references to say the PBR Deluxe Advanced were exactly the same pads as the Axxis Deluxe Advanced ...

As far as I know, NOBODY has shown anything that proves otherwise (but I do agree, as we said earlier, just "asking" people and we get both answers).

What we need is someone, who knows better than Zeckhausen and Turner (who gave conflicting information on this topic) whether or not the Axxis Deluxe Advanced are the same or are not the same as the PBR Deluxe Advanced pads.

References would be great!
Honestly, I don't need those vendors to give me their input any more than I have already done so. Vendors usually tend to push the products they sell and the information you get will be slighted to their products.

I am making my comment above from personal experience. I have used Axxis Deluxe and ultimates over the years. I have used the ultimates that came in both boxes (black and silver) and they perform the same. I don't need to ask Zeckhausen, or anybody else for that matter, on their performance. Although the Ultimates are not considered a true "track" pad, they actually perform pretty decent on the track. They are probably the highest performing pad for the street without having to deal with the noise of a true, aggressive track pad.

The Ultimates will put out about as much dust as the OEM, maybe a little more, but the performance is well worth it. If I were to consider the Deluxe pads for my car, then I would not go that route. I would opt for OEM or a Textar Ceramic Pad.

Also, stop listening to heresay about PBR, Repco, Axxis, etc. I take it you like to do your own research, so click on the link below and you can read about the history of Repco and PBR. You will find that they are one and the same and it will answer your question.

http://www.pbr.com.au/downloads/hist...gles_PRINT.pdf
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  #58  
Old 06-02-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
Also, stop listening to heresay about PBR, Repco, Axxis, etc. I take it you like to do your own research, so click on the link below and you can read about the history of Repco and PBR. You will find that they are one and the same and it will answer your question.

http://www.pbr.com.au/downloads/hist...gles_PRINT.pdf
I scanned that article, and it appears to say nothing about Bluebees questions about Axxis versus PBR, or more specifically if the Advanced Deluxe pad sold by each is exactly the same or not.
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  #59  
Old 06-02-2010, 10:23 AM
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mmm635 mmm635 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540 M-Sport View Post
I scanned that article, and it appears to say nothing about Bluebees questions about Axxis versus PBR, or more specifically if the Advanced Deluxe pad sold by each is exactly the same or not.
Then you need to actually read the whole article instead of scanning it. Wild...I take the time to post up the only factual information in this thread and the information is not even read seriously.
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  #60  
Old 06-13-2010, 10:15 PM
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so how do the text ceramics compare to the deluxe/akebono combo?
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  #61  
Old 06-26-2010, 02:33 PM
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It looks like the conclusion (that Axxis is no longer sold in the USA) has withstood the test of time (existing stock notwithstanding) ...

In a brake squeal thread, it came up that pads go on dry and that the PBR Deluxe Advanced pads I put on my bimmer had a "backing material", presumably to prevent squeaking and squealing.

Question:
Did the (now unavailable) Axxis Deluxe Advanced pads also have this black pad-backing material?

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  #62  
Old 07-04-2010, 11:14 PM
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For the record, it's still not clear (to me) whether or not Axxis is dead.

Dave Zeckhausen seems to say they are (Jason5Driver confirmed what I heard from them here) ... but Turner apparently still says Axxis is not dead in the USA ... so, go figure.

Also, Turner says Axxis === PBR yet others seem to disagree.

This is so confusing, I think I'll take up Akebono Euros next brake job!
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2010, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
stop listening to heresay about PBR, Repco, Axxis, etc. ... click on the link below and you can read about the history of Repco and PBR. You will find that they are one and the same and it will answer your question [about Axxis?] http://www.pbr.com.au/downloads/history/Booklet_Singles_PRINT.pdf
Hi Michel,
That 52-page history of PBR (attached below for reference) was an interesting read as it chronicled the company's genealogy from PBR (1927) -> Repco (1947) -> Ariadne (1985) -> BBA (1986) -> BCIA (1986) -> Pacific BBA (1989) -> Bendix Mintex (1991) -> and finally back to PBR (in 1993).

As the main question is whether PBR and Axxis are one and the same and whether Axxis is still available in the USA for restocking, I don't see how reading that 52-page history-of-PBR settled the issue. It didn't even address the issue at all.

Since there was no mention of Axxis in that article (nor of Metal Masters), it certainly didn't directly answer my two questions ...

Perhaps you are intimating that Axxis can't be PBR (and vice versa) if this 52-page history doesn't mention Axxis at all? Is that your point?

If so, that inference is not very helpful because other articles DO directly state that Axxis state is the same as PBR; so a history of PBR that wholly omits Axxis isn't adding any value (other than by obtuse inferences).

Or did I miss something important?

The question is (and always was):
- Are the Axxis Deluxe Advanced pads still available for restocking in the USA? (witness I could not find any vendor for my 2002 525i front pads and that Zeckhausen has told both me and Jason that Axxis is no longer sold in the USA, yet Turner seems to indicate otherwise. That article didn't ask nor answer the question - that article actually seemed to have nothing to do with the question, as 540i and I have both found out, much to our dismay).
- What is the difference between the Axxis Deluxe Advanced & PBR Deluxe Advanced pads? (witness some say they're the same; others seem to think they're different; facts are what we need to answer the question, not heresay or unrelated histories).

If reading that 52-page history of PBR answered the question ... I missed it (sorry). Please edify me. Thanks.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 1_pbr_Booklet_Singles_PRINT.pdf (879.8 KB, 170 views)
File Type: pdf 13_pbr_Booklet_Singles_PRINT.pdf (859.7 KB, 206 views)
File Type: pdf 28_pbr_Booklet_Singles_PRINT.pdf (838.8 KB, 181 views)
File Type: pdf 43_pbr_Booklet_Singles_PRINT.pdf (783.6 KB, 92 views)

Last edited by bluebee; 07-07-2010 at 05:56 PM.
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  #64  
Old 09-02-2010, 10:19 AM
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We never did get the answers we seek to clear up the (purposeful?) marketing confusion.
Since conflicting OPINIONS abound, what we are looking for is written references from reputable suppliers.

The WRITTEN references from reputable suppliers indicate the following:

A) Axxis is no longer sold in the USA; but PBR is; so these are equivalent:
- Axxis Deluxe Advanced pads are the same as PBR Deluxe Advanced brake pads
- Axxis ULT (aka Axxis Ultimates) are the same as PBR ULT (aka PBR Ultimates)
Note: If you have evidence to the contrary, please refer us to the written reference!

B) Written evidence in multiple places shows MetalMasters Ultimates to be the same as Axxis/PBR Ultimates:

- Axxis ULT === PBR ULT === MetalMasters ULT
Note: If you have EVIDENCE to the contrary, please refer us to a written reference.

... Taking A and B into account ...
C) F
or street use in the USA, the summary of user-recommended E39 replacement pads, seems to be:

OEM: (front: Jurid, P/N 34-11-6-761-280; rear Textar P/N 34-21-6-761-281):
- Jurid 187 [OEM bite (i.e., great stopping power); OEM dust (i.e., high dust); OEM noise (i.e., no noise)]
- Textar T4071 [OEM bite (i.e., great stopping power); OEM dust (i.e., medium dust); OEM noise (i.e., no noise)]

Most often recommended replacement pads for street use in the USA:
1. Akebono EURO Ceramic [lower bite than OEM, essentially no dust, no noise]
2. Axxis/PBR Deluxe Advanced [lower bite than OEM, essentially no dust, no noise]
3. Axxis/PBR/MM ULT
aka Axxis/PBR/MM Ultimates [OEM bite, OEM dust, noise?]

Jason added the following recommendations (but no data yet):
4. Pagid Blues [don't yet know bite compared to OEM? dust? noise?]
5. Hawk HPS [don't yet know bite
compared to OEM? dust? noise?]
6. Hawk HP+ [don't yet know bite
compared to OEM? dust? noise?]

And, paferri added the following (with data):
7. Textar Ceramic Fusions [OEM bite; lower dust; noise?]

Cal added the following dual-use (street:track) pads (with data):
8. Centric/Stoptech Street Performance [greater than OEM bite; lower than OEM dust; unknown noise]

Last edited by bluebee; 09-04-2010 at 01:42 AM.
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  #65  
Old 09-02-2010, 06:11 PM
lennyd lennyd is offline
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FWIW.... I didn't have time to read this whole thread but I just bought those Axxis pads from Farr auto parts in Miami. They weren't exactly the same box or brand name as the ones I got from Zeckinhouse but they were the same pads. Great pads, btw. I 'think' they rebranded the boxes / name for whatever distribution reason but are the same. They perform the same as I've two cars using these pads.
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  #66  
Old 09-03-2010, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennyd View Post
FWIW.... I just bought those Axxis pads ...They weren't exactly the same box or brand name
If not Axxis, what was the brand and model then?

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  #67  
Old 09-03-2010, 06:49 AM
nigel_1981 nigel_1981 is offline
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Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
the pads Bluebee installed on her car.
Bluebee is a girl?
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  #68  
Old 09-03-2010, 07:22 AM
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Oh oh ... if I thought trying to find Axxis-branded pads was confusing, I just realized (see details in this thread) that what people say are "Akebono Euros', are, in reality, a whole 'nuther host of confusing part names!

- Akebono EUR763 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic (bmw)
- Akebono EUR681 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR781 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono Euro Ultra Premium Ceramic Brake
- Akebono EUR760 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR919 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR912 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR1060 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR847 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR396 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR819 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR939 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR986 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- Akebono EUR946 EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic
- etc.

Since I have no experience with the Akebono Euros (they'll be my next pad), I need to ask ...

Which particular Akebono EURO Ultra-Premium Ceramic is the one we recommend for the E39 front/rear?
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  #69  
Old 09-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Bluebee:

Some thoughts ...

Go to akebonobrakes.com and read their literature, specifically this article:

http://www.akebonobrakes.com/company...ramic_tech.pdf

which discusses the reasons for the confusion in the marketing of brakes pads as follows in part:

"Depending on the marketer , a so-called
ceramic pad also could be categorized as a
low-metallic, semi-metallic, conventional
organic or metallic friction compound
product."

One problem is the fact that there are no mfg. standards (same with tires) that qualify a pad material supplier's product (may not be akebono making the material for their pads) and you can buy something marketed as ceramic which is actually semi-metallic, etc...

Unfortunately, just like PBR/AXXIS, branding/marketing tricks may be at play. Why should it be clear for the consumer ... ? lol

I do believe the numbers in the links you provided are brake pad models / size applications.
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Last edited by Jase007; 09-03-2010 at 02:59 PM.
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  #70  
Old 09-03-2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase007 View Post
ceramic pad also could be categorized as a
low-metallic, semi-metallic, conventional organic or metallic friction compound product."
The marketing hype I'm well aware of. Even the PBR Deluxe Advanced pads in the picture two posts up, which are definitely NAO (non asbestos organic), say "CERAMIC" in big letters on the box. If you search for my posts, you'll see I don't believe in marketing rah rah; and the word ceramic in friction materials is meaningless.

I've always lamented the lack of friction material standards.

Quote:
brake pad models / size applications.
Ah, if that's the case, it's less confusing. What you're saying is the friction material is the same; just the size and shape of the pads are different (to fit the various cars).

Do you know which is for the E39?
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  #71  
Old 09-03-2010, 06:23 PM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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I'm sorry, don't know for fronts.. I'm sure Board vendors can tell you.

Some of the better mfg of pads post the Mu like Pagid in their race pad applications. Several "manufacturers" also have clinics for their retailers to educate them and then it is up to the retailer to market it, inform us .... or not, as to what they learned.

Oftentimes, their margin is so low they don't want to invest the time.

I've raced Pagid yellows in RS19 and RS29 formulas for years (Hawk blues, Porterfields, etc....) and the "tuner" vendors have good information as well as real life experience using them on the track. Different environment and different market (~$180 for an axle set and up) so there may be a greater incentive for them. Also, if your customer chews thru a set of your recommended pads in a race weekend ...when if wasn't expected b/c say they were "endurance pads" ... you'll probably hear from them on Monday.

Typical Pagid info available:

Quote:
Pagid RS19 Yellow
Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation(controllability). Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1,100°F) are possible. The combination of friction value, fading stability and low wear rates on pads and discs (rotors) realised with this material is unmatched up to now. Due to its excellent release characteristics and controllability PAGID endurance materials are also often used for sprint races. A multiple winner of Daytona 24h, Le Mans 24h, Sebring12h, Spa 24 h, Nürburgring 24h, often with no pad change and usually no disc (rotor) change. Application: All endurance racing cars from Group N (Speed-WC, Grand Am Cup), Group A up to GT and Sport-Prototypes(Grand Am DP).

Pagid RS29 Yellow
RS29 combines the outstanding wear rate of the RS19 with a slightly higher coefficient of friction and initial bite. Due to its excellent driveability PAGID endurance materials are also often used for sprint races. Application: All endurance racing cars from group N (Speed-WC, Grand Am Cup), Group A up to GT and Sport-Prototypes (Grand Am DP).
[edit] just ordered remanufactured (BMW calipers reman by Cardone - 3 yr warranty) rear calipers ($65 each + $60 core charge) and Akebono "ultra premium ceramic brake pads" part: EUR1239 for $52 from advancedautoparts.com b/c have a 20% off labor day sale. Had already replaced font calipers with remanufactured by nugeon through pelicanparts.com a year or so ago. BMW part for rear caliper is touring specific, all E39 tourings: 34 21 1 164 187 [end edit]
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Last edited by Jase007; 09-03-2010 at 08:01 PM.
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  #72  
Old 09-04-2010, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase007 View Post
I've raced Pagid yellows in RS19 and RS29 formulas for years (Hawk blues, Porterfields, etc....)
I think I'm a good one for the "newbie summary" because what you guys seem to know inherently simply generates questions for me!

Your simple quote above immediately generates two questions:
Q1: Should I assume less-often-recommended Pagid, Hawk, & Porterfields are in a different "class" of pad (i.e., dual use) than the more-often-recommended Jurid/Textar, Akebono, & Axxis/PBR pads?

Q2: In the "newbie summary" are "Pagid Blues", not "Pagid Yellows". I'll look up the difference but what is the RECOMMENDED pad for street use? Blues or yellows? Or both?

Quote:
just ordered ... Akebono "ultra premium ceramic brake pads" EUR1239 for $52 from advancedautoparts.com
That quote generates two clarifying questions too!

Thanks for listing the full name and the "EUR1239" part number and the supplier. I think I'm getting it that the EUR1239 is merely the size and shape while the pad friction material to recommend to newbies would be "Akebono EURO EURXXXX Ultra-Premium Ceramic" brake pads (where XXXX is dependent on your model year E39.

Q3: Is that right?

Q4: I don't have "AdvancedAutoParts" on the list of recommended suppliers for E39 brake pads. Should I add them?
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  #73  
Old 09-04-2010, 06:51 AM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Quote:
Q1: Should I assume less-often-recommended Pagid, Hawk, & Porterfields are in a different "class" of pad (i.e., dual use) than the more-often-recommended Jurid/Textar, Akebono, & Axxis/PBR pads?
Their focus is on performance, not rotor friendliness or less dust. While they all market a street pad "for the enthusiast" I would stick with what fellow forum members and vendors recommend for the E39 on the street.

A friend that sells pads to racers once told me that there are only a few pad manufacturers and that pad companies spec their product to be made at one of these manufacturers. Similar to Johnson Control making lots of car batteries for different stores/chains.

Quote:
Q2: In the "newbie summary" are "Pagid Blues", not "Pagid Yellows". I'll look up the difference but what is the RECOMMENDED pad for street use? Blues or yellows? Or both?
Blues for the street, yellows for the track.

Quote:
Q3: Is that right? (EURXXX= size and shape
I would guess but don't know for sure.

Quote:
Q4: I don't have "AdvancedAutoParts" on the list of recommended suppliers for E39 brake pads. Should I add them?
Right now, their rear Akebono fitment for the tourings is an option. They don't list akebono euro or any akebono for the fronts. It's your list, add them if you want but you should also look at non-euro specific suppliers sometimes for these consumables like: rockauto.com, bmaparts.com, pepboys.com, napaonline.com, etc...

e.g. NAPA sells sells the inner and outer ball joints individually for the E30 325ix control arms for a total of $100 per arm versus the "all new control arm" only option from BMW vendors for $250+ a side.

e.g. #2 Rockauto.com has discount coupons and carries lots of BMW consumables. Handy to order from them if you have a domestic vehicle that also needs parts and can combine orders. Their site also has pictures of the part you are buying, which helps.
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2000 528iT Sport 5M (mfg. 5/1999) ~ 1990 325iX 5M
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  #74  
Old 09-04-2010, 08:01 PM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Bluebee still did not contact Turner yet...
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:09 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
Bluebee still did not contact Turner yet...
Hi Jason,
I called both Turner and Zeckhausen when I first researched this.

Are they saying something different now than they said then?
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