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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 07-04-2015, 01:54 PM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Exclamation Another SAS Malfunction GURU NEEDED =D

Hi guys looking for some help from any Gurus here that have fix this issue successfully (I haven't been able to find successful help with my troubles ) I'm currently dealing with this issue on my e39 M5 (2000).
My long story short, i took my vehicle for i'ts biannual Smog here in Los Angeles California (STAR) our Californian Nemesis and as they was testing the OBD system they found that Secondary air System (SAS) was not showing readiness so they fail my Test (1 month ago) . Ever since then i been trying to trouble shoot this issue and been following different threads (on this forum and others) no success with my issue.

My problem there is no Current or power on wire harness that plugs to SAP (12v)
(Here is where it gets fishy) when i turn on vehicle 12v runs thru wiring harness for less then 1 Second and Automatically shuts off

*HERE IS WHAT I DONE SUMMARIZE*

-I applied 12v directly to pump and it pushes air hard
-I have change Relay. (tested old relay with 12v directly and ohm readers and seems to work find)
-i check famous fuse 107 and it has 12v
-No check engine light

I would really appreciate any help of past member who have commented on this forum regarding SAS. If i may i could post link from other forum where i started a thread and have posted all my steps trying fixing and all feedback i have gotten for my issues and with no luck have not found a solution, just let me know if i could share, Thank you guys for taking time to read my post
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  #2  
Old 07-04-2015, 03:20 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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I hate it when people say "I checked the threads" but they don't list the threads because I don't know if the advice I'm gonna give (which is always a thread or few) is redundant.

Anyway, anyone can pass smog without the register being set in California.
I did it myself.
With the exact same problem.

Just type /sas f3 in the bestlinks and this pops up, for example:
- How to pass CA smog when the SAS monitor won't set (1)

See also:
- How to maintain the secondary air system (1) (2) (3) & how to troubleshoot the SAS (1) (2) (3) (4) & how to do an SAS delete (1) & how to replace the (SAP) secondary air pump (1) & an SAP valve group buy (1) & how to set the SAS secondary air monitor 2AIR obd (1)
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  #3  
Old 07-04-2015, 04:47 PM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I hate it when people say "I checked the threads" but they don't list the threads because I don't know if the advice I'm gonna give (which is always a thread or few) is redundant.

Anyway, anyone can pass smog without the register being set in California.
I did it myself.
With the exact same problem.

Just type /sas f3 in the bestlinks and this pops up, for example:
- How to pass CA smog when the SAS monitor won't set (1)

See also:
- How to maintain the secondary air system (1) (2) (3) & how to troubleshoot the SAS (1) (2) (3) (4) & how to do an SAS delete (1) & how to replace the (SAP) secondary air pump (1) & an SAP valve group buy (1) & how to set the SAS secondary air monitor 2AIR obd (1)
Thank you for your input bluebee sorry for causing any frustration.
links you mention i check them already thanks for sharing by the way got them save on my bookmark already

I'm not sure if you aware but on March this year 2015 they implemented that vehicles 2000 and above cant fail any readiness monitor besides EVAP thats the only exception

99 and below Can pass with 1 Not ready monitor + evap from what i understood from the Smog technician "New law"

My main frustration or focused like i mention above 12v dying on harness cable that connects at pump after 1 second (when vehicle is started)
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  #4  
Old 07-04-2015, 04:54 PM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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  #5  
Old 07-04-2015, 05:05 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinn3r213 View Post
I'm not sure if you aware but on March this year 2015 they implemented that vehicles 2000 and above cant fail any readiness monitor besides EVAP thats the only exception

99 and below Can pass with 1 Not ready monitor + evap from what i understood from the Smog technician "New law"
This is new information for me, but I haven't called Mike McCarthy up in Sacramento in a long time, so, maybe it's time for another long chat on the phone about what's going on in California regarding permissible smog requirements.

For the record, since I don't know if you've seen this, most of my prior conversations with the folks up in Sacramento are documented in these two threads:
- How to better understand the key EPA federal test procedure (FTP) concept of the BMW SES "drive cycle" (1) & what you can expect for E39 smog emissions test results (1)
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  #6  
Old 07-04-2015, 05:06 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Here's Mike's contact information...
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > When are E39 OBDII diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) & pending codes auto cleared?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Last week, I had a long talk with Mike McCarthy at 626-771-3614 (m+hislastname@arb.ca.gov) about OBD codes in California.

Mike manages the OBD program for California. He had tons of details (most of which went over my head), but, it's important to note that the BMW FTP is 'not' the same as the EPA FTP (aka FTP-74) drive trace (Mike said more information is at dieselnet.com).

He said the BMW FTP can be considered a manufacturer-specified 'superset' which encompasses the EPA FTP-75 that all California cars must pass.

For example, the EPA 75 does 'not' have such long times for cold idle and it doesn't even have a second cold start. It has a 10 minute cooloff period in the cycle - but that's it for the engine being off. And, it doesn't even have the idle-in-gear stuff that the BMW drive trace has. Apparently it all started down in LA with a drive cycle of 1,372 seconds and then progressed to EPA control culminating with the EPA-72 spec and then the EPA-75 as described on http://dieselnet.com

Mike knew the history of all the OBD standards, from IM240 to ASM and then on to OBD.

Mike also knew the history of the OBD monitoring requirements. Specifically he confirmed that, in any one drive cycle, a pending code can be set once, and then the second code will trigger the MIL.

To reset the MIL, the code has to be NOT trigged in three complete drive cycles.

For more information, he suggested smogcheck.ca.gov

EDIT: For information on the OBD readiness monitors, I called the Department of Consumer affairs 800-952-5210 where you can actually talk to 'former mechanics' who are now 'technical advisors' or 'consumer assistance representatives' for the state of California who will discuss with you your smog test questions.

At the Department of Consumer Affairs, I spoke with "Marvin" who explained that, in California, a 1996 to 2000 vehicle can pass smog with 2 monitors not ready but that a 2001 to current vehicle can have only 1 monitor not ready and still pass smog tests. He said many technicians still fail the car because they want to have high STAR scores.

In addition, Marvin said that new OBD tests will check your air conditioning because they assume if your ac isn't working that you're leaking freon into the atmosphere just like they check your fuel system, again assuming vapors will leak out into the atmosphere. So it's not just engine emissions that are being monitored.
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  #7  
Old 07-04-2015, 05:07 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Here is the latest that I knew of when I knew it...
(You seem to be more up to date, so, would you kindly update the threads?)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Last week, I had a long talk with Mike McCarthy at 626-771-3614 (m+hislastname@arb.ca.gov) about OBD codes in California.

Mike manages the OBD program for California. He had tons of details (most of which went over my head), but, it's important to note that the BMW FTP is 'not' the same as the EPA FTP (aka FTP-74) drive trace (Mike said more information is at dieselnet.com).

He said the BMW FTP can be considered a manufacturer-specified 'superset' which encompasses the EPA FTP-75 that all California cars must pass.

For example, the EPA 75 does 'not' have such long times for cold idle and it doesn't even have a second cold start. It has a 10 minute cooloff period in the cycle - but that's it for the engine being off. And, it doesn't even have the idle-in-gear stuff that the BMW drive trace has. Apparently it all started down in LA with a drive cycle of 1,372 seconds and then progressed to EPA control culminating with the EPA-72 spec and then the EPA-75 as described on http://dieselnet.com

Mike knew the history of all the OBD standards, from IM240 to ASM and then on to OBD.

Mike also knew the history of the OBD monitoring requirements. Specifically he confirmed that, in any one drive cycle, a pending code can be set once, and then the second code will trigger the MIL.

To reset the MIL, the code has to be NOT trigged in three complete drive cycles.

For more information, he suggested smogcheck.ca.gov

EDIT: For information on the OBD readiness monitors, I called the Department of Consumer affairs 800-952-5210 where you can actually talk to 'former mechanics' who are now 'technical advisors' or 'consumer assistance representatives' for the state of California who will discuss with you your smog test questions.

At the Department of Consumer Affairs, I spoke with "Marvin" who explained that, in California, a 1996 to 2000 vehicle can pass smog with 2 monitors not ready but that a 2001 to current vehicle can have only 1 monitor not ready and still pass smog tests. He said many technicians still fail the car because they want to have high STAR scores.

In addition, Marvin said that new OBD tests will check your air conditioning because they assume if your ac isn't working that you're leaking freon into the atmosphere just like they check your fuel system, again assuming vapors will leak out into the atmosphere. So it's not just engine emissions that are being monitored.
In February 2013, I called Mike McCarthy again, at 626-771-3614, who said the OBD test machines are currently in beta testing.
  • He hopes they will pass their tests soon, in which case they can be sold to the test stations.
  • He hopes that will happen before the end of this year.
  • He also confirmed that cars can pass California smog with either one or two incomplete registers, depending on their year (as described in the quote above).
  • He did say that soon, the older (1996 to 2000) cars will be limited to one unset monitor (which can be any monitor other than the fuel evap test); and that the newer cars will be limited to zero unset monitors.
Mike also explained that many people go to the BAR refereee when a smog test station refuses to run the test due to unset monitors.

Part of the problem is their STAR system assesses a penalty point for STAR stations that test cars that have one register unfilled (whether or not that vehicle passes the test!).

So, when a STAR station won't test your bimmer, you can call the BAR referee, at 800-622-7733x1(English)2(agent), who, for free (except the $8.75 for the certificate), will smog check the vehicle at a local community college via a scheduled appointment.

With your license plate, name, and address, and contact phone number, that free smog-check referee appointment will be scheduled, in my experience, within a week, at a local college. My local college is Evergreen Community College, where "Johnny" is the manager in charge (he usually has some students also working with him). Total cost is $8.25 for the certificate (the smog check, which normally costs around $60) is free.

For me, I have to go to both a STAR & TEST ONLY station, which makes matters even worse. It bothers me that California is so screwed up that they make US pay for their silly system; but it is what it is, and I, as a single person, can't do anything about it. The only good news out of all this is that the OBD tests are coming soon.

EDIT:
I don't know of any DMV price list for smog stations, but, there is this BAR web site which will list them out by zip code, e.g.,
- http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/pubwebqu...ationList.aspx

I randomly called a few local STAR-certified smog check stations to find hours & prices (sorted by price, out the door, including the $8.25 certificate):
  • $48 408-371-6430
  • $50 408-356-4188
  • $50 408-374-0140
  • $50 408-227-1575
  • $60 408-871-9484
  • $85 408-399-3927
Here, for the record, is the DMV site explaining a couple components the lousy system (but, in reality, it's a system put together by bureaucrats who don't know how to put systems together without the public paying through the nose for their inefficient system):
- http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/smo...og-Inspections


See also:
- How to identify all BMW computer-specific OBDII DTC diagnostic fault codes (1) & how to better understand the key EPA federal test procedure (FTP) concept of the BMW SES "drive cycle" (1) & how to diagnose a typical BMW E39 engine misfire (1) or a sporadic-temperature-change cold-engine intermittent misfire (1) (2) & what you can expect for E39 smog emissions test results (1) & obtaining the pending or diagnostic trouble code (DTC) using free or freeware scans (1) [except in California or Hawaii (1) (2)] or where to get the cheapest reasonable OBDII scanner in the world (1) (2) or a better overall scanner (1) or the best BMW diagnostic tools (1) (2) (3) & a template of what to tell people from the Republik of Kalifornia who need to do an OBC diagnostic scan (1).
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2015, 05:53 PM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Here is the latest that I knew of when I knew it...
(You seem to be more up to date, so, would you kindly update the threads?)
Unfortunately that's about all i know (what i posted) lets just put it as as Hearsay, I haven't searched for the law update/change it self since i been really just searching thread by treads on my free time to figure SAS system and working on vehicle itself, all i'm sure of is that i FAILED and my current problem with 12v.
But its a Great idea to find out more details and inform members from forum that live on California.
i might just mention it after i get home though just dont like to open up treads were im completely clueless and might get
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  #9  
Old 07-04-2015, 09:19 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinn3r213 View Post
lets just put it as as Hearsay
Awww,.... shucks.

I had thought I finally found someone who knew about a change in the California smog laws from a good source.

Anyway, Mike is great, and I just noticed he's not in Sacramento but near LA (based on his phone area code), so, for you, it may be a local call well worth making.

Methinks you might be able to get through that smog check, just like I did, without paying anything for it either (I just had to pay the 8 bucks for the certificate - but the test fee was waived by the state).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinn3r213 View Post
i been really just searching thread by treads on my free time to figure SAS system
Here's the thing.
You can type SAS in any search engine and come up with tons of hits, 95% of which will be garbage, with half of that being wrong.

Or ...

You could spend about 2 seconds (in toto) typing /sas f3 in the bestlinks, and you can read the one number 1 thread that attempts to explain the whole thing.

Most of the time, that second search is way more efficient than the first because you stand on the shoulders of giants like cn90, QSilver7, Fudman, RDL, JimLev, etc.

Anyway, I can't do more because my solution was simply to forget about the monitor that wouldn't set, and to just schedule a free test by the state at a local college (as explained in the aforementioned thread).
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  #10  
Old 07-05-2015, 12:28 AM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Awww,.... shucks.

I had thought I finally found someone who knew about a change in the California smog laws from a good source
.

Yes sorry. Is this his current number (Mike McCarthy at 626-771-3614)


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Here's the thing.
You can type SAS in any search engine and come up with tons of hits, 95% of which will be garbage, with half of that being wrong.

Or ...

You could spend about 2 seconds (in toto) typing /sas f3 in the bestlinks, and you can read the one number 1 thread that attempts to explain the whole thing.

Most of the time, that second search is way more efficient than the first because you stand on the shoulders of giants like cn90, QSilver7, Fudman, RDL, JimLev, etc.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAH Thanks alot for that Tip i will be searching on that form now instead of searching complete forums page and going one by one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Anyway, I can't do more because my solution was simply to forget about the monitor that wouldn't set, and to just schedule a free test by the state at a local college (as explained in the aforementioned thread).
You have help more that enough Blue bee i really appreciate your inputs and help thanks a lot man your awesome. i will continue browsing and see if i find how to solve my SAP problem, and also will try to contact mike and see if he could help me with smog
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  #11  
Old 07-05-2015, 07:55 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Check the Fuse #107 again...
Maybe the pump pulls too much current and keeps blowing the Fuse 107...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=459397
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2015, 07:56 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Check the Fuse #107 again...
Maybe the pump pulls too much current and keeps blowing the Fuse 107...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=459397
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2015, 11:23 AM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
Check the Fuse #107 again...
Maybe the pump pulls too much current and keeps blowing the Fuse 107...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=459397
Cn90

Thanks for looking at thread , my fuse 107 is working fine i follow thru your DIY to check relay and fuse under seat (that's how i found them i was clueless on there location) i been trying to trouble shoot my issue but with no luck still haven't found a solution.
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Old 07-05-2015, 01:00 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinn3r213 View Post
Cn90

Thanks for looking at thread , my fuse 107 is working fine i follow thru your DIY to check relay and fuse under seat (that's how i found them i was clueless on there location) i been trying to trouble shoot my issue but with no luck still haven't found a solution.
Keeping in mind that you had problems with the results of your search, note that ANY DIY written by cn90 is a keeper!

Of course, typing /f107 in the bestlinks nets cn90's thread in a split second (even though it may be on a different forum):
- Go here for specific troubleshooting for SAS fuse F107 (1) (2)

And, just as useful, typing /fuse f3 nets a picture and description of every single fuse in the car, in another split second:
- One user's attempt to locate, describe, and photograph all fuses and relays in the BMW E39 with a picture of every fuse & relay (1)
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Last edited by bluebee; 07-05-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-2015, 08:43 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Testing fuse #107 is a royal PITA and is TOTALLY unnecessary if you have 12VDC at pin 30 of the SAS relay. Its the large red power wire at the relay socket that will have a constant 12VDC whether car is on or not. Why tear up carpet when you can just check in DME compartment? Salmon relay, large red heavy gauge wire, feeds pin #30 so stated on relay itself, and if so just check that you are getting 12 V at SAP for 1.5 min. (prox.) after cold start. If no, then relay is bad or relay not getting trigger voltage to relay coil at cold start from DME. Simple fix if relay has the 30 amp 12VDC power at relay. Simple from there to diagnose.
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Old 07-06-2015, 10:48 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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@540iman,

In contrast to BMW published circuitry (which says 30 is hot all the time), the truth is: test pin 87.

See the posts by billj3cub and myself in the thread below:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=459397&page=3
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Old 07-06-2015, 11:03 AM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Testing fuse #107 is a royal PITA and is TOTALLY unnecessary if you have 12VDC at pin 30 of the SAS relay. Its the large red power wire at the relay socket that will have a constant 12VDC whether car is on or not. Why tear up carpet when you can just check in DME compartment? Salmon relay, large red heavy gauge wire, feeds pin #30 so stated on relay itself, and if so just check that you are getting 12 V at SAP for 1.5 min. (prox.) after cold start. If no, then relay is bad or relay not getting trigger voltage to relay coil at cold start from DME. Simple fix if relay has the 30 amp 12VDC power at relay. Simple from there to diagnose.
540iman
What cn90 just said above 87 on relay has 12v (all times) (red wire on relay harness)
Im only getting 12v for less then 2 seconds on harness wire that connect to pump
i replace relay and i have manually check old relay(open relay cover and checked it with voltmeter) and it was working just fine.
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  #18  
Old 07-06-2015, 11:09 AM
sinn3r213 sinn3r213 is offline
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Bluebee will it be a good idea to contact Mike today ? i will like to call him but how do i tell him you refer me (scratching head), may you please give me more 411 =D
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