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Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 06-09-2010, 09:52 AM
magbarn magbarn is online now
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Anyone have any issues yet with "contaminated fuel" and HPFP?

Not trying to start a firestorm here, but I'm curious as a few VW TDI 2009+ have had their HPFP's grenade sending bits of metal into their common rail - ergo destroying the fuel system, causing $11,000+ repair bills. Some VW dealers have been blaming "contaminated diesel" and not honoring the repair under warranty. I hope our d fuel filters keeps the crap out well enough to prevent this from happening.
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  #2  
Old 06-09-2010, 12:06 PM
tlak77 tlak77 is offline
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I think there are 2 fuel pumps in 335d. One in the tank and one (HPFP) by injectors. Filter is between them. So filter would not protect much.
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  #3  
Old 06-09-2010, 12:23 PM
Neutrinolad Neutrinolad is offline
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Yikes. No problems yet...nor have I heard of anyone on the forum having such problems with the 335d.
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  #4  
Old 06-09-2010, 05:30 PM
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No issues with bad fuel of fuel pumps yet.......Keeping my fingers crossed
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  #5  
Old 06-13-2010, 12:21 PM
railroader railroader is offline
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Guys, it's like we're all in the same boat holding our "collective" breaths, but I still have a good feeling about the fuel delivery systems of our fabulous new cars. While I probably wouldn't put any "third world" diesel fuel in my car (don't plan on a trip through the Americas down to the tip of Argentina) I feel pretty secure with the mainstream fuels such as Shell (my personal favorite choice if available) and Chevron.

At least our cars aren't subject to the HPFP issues that the 335i guys had/have. We all know about that car and some of the problems the gasoline-engine guys have had with pump issues. But that VW TDI story does make you think... Wish all of you a great driving day!
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  #6  
Old 06-13-2010, 12:39 PM
nealh nealh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
Not trying to start a firestorm here, but I'm curious as a few VW TDI 2009+ have had their HPFP's grenade sending bits of metal into their common rail - ergo destroying the fuel system, causing $11,000+ repair bills. Some VW dealers have been blaming "contaminated diesel" and not honoring the repair under warranty. I hope our d fuel filters keeps the crap out well enough to prevent this from happening.
any links to the story?
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  #7  
Old 06-13-2010, 05:30 PM
magbarn magbarn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nealh View Post
any links to the story?
Newest failure click here

Here's seven others... click here
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  #8  
Old 06-13-2010, 05:43 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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I personally wouldn't put any faith in the fuel filter of the d catching a load of bad fuel. Lilalleykat has run into bad fuel a couple of times. He posted about it in the monster 335d thread. One of his posts included a photo of the filter. It looks like a can of RedBull energy drink. The last diesel I owned (VW Diesel Rabbit) had a fuel filter that was the size of a half gallon juice can and that could only catch a small amount of contaminated fuel.

I honestly don't know what advice to follow outside of California (CA has a very rigorous tank testing and inspection program) to avoid getting a load of contaminated fuel.

EDIT: As far as coverage once the contaminated fuel gets into your tank, if you have all of your fuel purchase receipts, you can prove who sold you the bad fuel. Either the service station's insurance company or your insurance company will cover the damage repair.

Last edited by anE934fun; 06-13-2010 at 05:47 PM. Reason: See EDIT:
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  #9  
Old 06-13-2010, 11:02 PM
magbarn magbarn is online now
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Yeah I started saving all my diesel receipts after seeing what the poor VW guys have had to go through.
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  #10  
Old 06-14-2010, 05:36 AM
Display_Name Display_Name is offline
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There is a website that lists all the forum reports on a single page:

http://www.tdi-issues.com/hpfp-cases-tac68/

It seems that the VW's HPFP is lubricated with the diesel fuel itself. (Is this true on the 35d/335d?)

U.S. ULSD is on the edge of acceptable lubricity for the VW's Bosch HPFP.

Throw in a little contamination, or enough water to lower the effective lubricity and the fine surfaces of the VW TDI's HPFP start to fail quickly.

Last edited by Display_Name; 06-14-2010 at 08:39 AM. Reason: typo fix
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  #11  
Old 06-14-2010, 10:49 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Display_Name View Post
There is a website that lists all the forum reports on a single page:

http://www.tdi-issues.com/hpfp-cases-tac68/

It seems that the VW's HPFP is lubricated with the diesel fuel itself. (Is this true on the 35d/335d?)

U.S. ULSD is on the edge of acceptable lubricity for the VW's Bosch HPFP.

Throw in a little contamination, or enough water to lower the effective lubricity and the fine surfaces of the VW TDI's HPFP start to fail quickly.
All diesel injection pumps are lubricated by the fuel. The lubricity spec for U.S. ULSD is arguably lacking. The spec for Euro diesel has a much lower wear limit than U.S. diesel. If you are concerned about wear of the fuel pump, you either find premium diesel with a published wear specification that meets the Euro spec., or you supplement the lubricity of the fuel with biodiesel or a fuel additive like Powerservice.

If water gets into the fuel, it will kill the pump regardless of the lubricity of the fuel. Mud (for lack of a better definition) will clog the fuel filter and the engine will stop running for lack of fuel. Based on the linked articles, it would seem that fuel contamination continues to be a problem. Which is even more reason to keep the receipts from fuel purchases. With a receipt, you at least have recourse against the station that sold the bad fuel.
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  #12  
Old 06-14-2010, 11:31 AM
railroader railroader is offline
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Keeping the receipts is a good idea. I used a "mom and pop" station on my recent Arizona trip; his pump looked pretty "iffy" but guess it was OK since that tank got me home. Otherwise it's strictly mainstream Shell and Chevron for my d car. Still you could technically get bad fuel anywhere, like Lilalleykat (sp) got in an earlier thread...hopefully high volume stations=good clean waterfree fuel.
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  #13  
Old 06-14-2010, 04:55 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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I am still amazed these cars only have one fuel filter let alone one tiny one. The diesels in my other vehicles and in the boat all use primary and secondary filters and some have water seperators as well. With that said, I have gotten bad fuel in my truck and had to get it towed/drained/flushed but it did not perm damage. The truck at least has a water seperator that I have to drain every couple of months.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2010, 06:13 PM
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Flyingman Flyingman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
All diesel injection pumps are lubricated by the fuel. The lubricity spec for U.S. ULSD is arguably lacking. The spec for Euro diesel has a much lower wear limit than U.S. diesel. If you are concerned about wear of the fuel pump, you either find premium diesel with a published wear specification that meets the Euro spec., or you supplement the lubricity of the fuel with biodiesel or a fuel additive like Powerservice.

If water gets into the fuel, it will kill the pump regardless of the lubricity of the fuel. Mud (for lack of a better definition) will clog the fuel filter and the engine will stop running for lack of fuel. Based on the linked articles, it would seem that fuel contamination continues to be a problem. Which is even more reason to keep the receipts from fuel purchases. With a receipt, you at least have recourse against the station that sold the bad fuel.
Perhaps in the automotive industry, i.e. smaller diesel engines. But when you get into the large bore 1,000kw (1300hp) per cylinder medium speed diesel engines I deal with, they have lube oil injection as well. Lube oil and fuel compatibility is very critical in these applications.

By the way, I am totally against most (almost all) fuel additives. It is mostly snake oil unless you have a product that was specifically engineered to deal with a very specific problem. Any product that claims a wide range of performance enhancement is BS

You are just throwing your money away.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2010, 06:39 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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We all throw our money away on one thing or another. I'd do an additive if the engine maker or someone I know in that specific field has tested it and recommends it for use otherwise I probably would not use one. Thus far I have yet to use an additive in any car other than some older Porsches which specifically said to run Techron through them I think once a year.
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2010, 01:45 PM
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tim330i tim330i is online now
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No to bump up an old thread but I was sent a relevant link for this thread. A TDI owner took apart his failed HPFP and posted pictures, check out the damage from lack of lubrication -

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f...-failure-4187/

Tim
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2010, 05:19 AM
BMWTurboDzl BMWTurboDzl is online now
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I think the VW dealerships are fleecing the customer when they want to replace the entire fuel system as there is no way that any metal bits would get past the secondary fuel filter in those cars.
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  #18  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:30 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Hypothetically, if someone was of the belief that EVERY diesel engine should have a water separating, check-able, drain-able, 2-5um fuel filter then it appears on the 335d such a person could, hypothetically, take advantage of the fuel lines and open space in this area . . .
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  #19  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:09 PM
DC-IT DC-IT is offline
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Our 335d came out in MY 2009 and so far there has been no reports of any failure of the HPFP so I am confident we are safe.

Having said that last month I added the new 2011 VW Jetta TDI as a second car and traded in my gas sucking SUV!

It seems the ULSD in Canada has higher lubricity and there hasn't been any HPFP failures here apart from one incident in Montreal which was due to mis-fueling with gas.

My 335d is giving a combined FE of 30.5 MPG (US) while my TDI is getting 38.6 MPG during the Winter season.

I can expect this to improve when the weather improves and we stop using Winterized ULSD.

In these days of high fuel costs it makes more sense to switch to Diesel.
My SUV was getting 400 KM/Tank (60L) while the TDI goes for 900 KM/Tank (55L) and my 335d gets 750KM/Tank.

If VW starts selling the Passat Wagon TDI I would probably get one as it is supposed to get over 800 Miles (1,287KM)/Tank.
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  #20  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:20 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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http://www.forums.bimmerfest.com/sho...t=water&page=2

Please see post #42. Then post #95. Water took out the 335d's whole fuel system at the tune of ~$10k.
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  #21  
Old 03-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
http://www.forums.bimmerfest.com/sho...t=water&page=2

Please see post #42. Then post #95. Water took out the 335d's whole fuel system at the tune of ~$10k.
I just reread them and maybe I missed it again but I did not see where they determined it definitely was water.

I believe in water seperators though. My trucks finds more than enough water to sell me on it. I also believe in regular fuel filter changes and baffled why it seems like BMW has no set interval for that. Of course I come from other diesels where the car/trucks always had a 15k interval for both fuel filters.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:38 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Agreed.

However the fuel was obviously contaminated with water and sediment. The pictures of the cloudy fuel are exactly what it looks like if one adds water to diesel and mixes it up. There's obviously a bunch of other sediment in those pictures as well, based upon what I've drained out of my fuel filters in my other diesel vehicles. I'd wager several rounds of beer it was water and sediment that got past the fuel filter (which has no ability to warn the operator of water/sediment contamination) and took out the hpfp, injectors, etc.

Having had 7 diesel vehicles over the last 15 years, this is the first one without a water/sediment warning, drainable, fuel filter. A filter system with a water/sediment sensor would've warned the owner as soon as that sludge hit the filter. Which would give warning to shut down the vehicle and check the filter. Which would've greatly reduced, or eliminated, the damage to the fuel system (based on my own personal experience).

It just makes me nervous not having one. And knowing that it's so easy to fit in the engine bay makes it even more enticing. But I design systems that require multiple redundant backups so I'm a bit conservative by nature . . .
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Last edited by TDIwyse; 03-12-2011 at 06:39 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-12-2011, 07:01 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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I really think it was more the sediment than the water. That sediment at these pressures would be very destructive. Plus it was an insurance job and seemed clear they over reacted on what all they did.

In my 20+ years of driving diesels, my current truck is the only one that has had a water separator warning light on the dash. Only one that had a water separator too or that I knew about at least. After having one though it kind of amazes me that all don't have one. I think these BMW cars just have one fuel filter, if that is true then it is the first diesel powered thing I have owned that did not use two filters. Then like I said, I am still baffled that filters are not changed at 15k miles and actually that nothing blatantly obvious to me as to when they ever would be replaced as a maintenance item.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:43 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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I think the sediment would clog the filter as opposed to pass thru the filter and damage the hpfp/injectors. However, if the clogging starved the hpfp of fuel then it could have damaged the hpfp in short order. Over on the tdiclub discussing the common rail vw hpfp mess they have posted a plot from Bosch about the lifespan of a hpfp with different lubricity ratings for fuel. Low lubricity fuel radically reduces the hpfp lifespan. Water in fuel strips the lubrication properties of diesel.

Just for grins I went out and got a sample of fuel. Then started adding small amounts of water and mixing it up. The pics are Dry, 0.5ml pre-mix, 0.5ml post mix, 2 ml post mix, 3 ml post mix.
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2011, 07:58 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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For some reason I was ignoring the fact the older would catch the sediment. Shame we can't know what was actually broken over what was all replaced on his car.
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