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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 11-19-2014, 08:29 PM
mattebury mattebury is offline
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Diesel Prices Out of Whack in San Diego

Weird,

Local gas station has:

Regular - $2.999
Mid - $3.099
Premium - $3.199
Diesel - $3.499

Diesel is usually the same price as premium, now it $0.30 higher! At least I'm averaging 38!
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  #2  
Old 11-19-2014, 09:28 PM
DaveN007 DaveN007 is offline
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Local Safeway (Chevron Gas) in Northern California outside of Bay Area. Similarly whacked.


$2.919 reg

$3.039 mid

$3.139 prem

$3.499 diesel


I have a "Hybrid Garage" with 1 petrol, 1 hybrid, 1 diesel, and 1 EV car.

The 335d is finding itself spending less time around town getting 25mpg. That is what the EV is for, so it takes some of the sting out of it.

EV is $.025 per mile for me. $3.50 is 35 kWh and maths out to over 100 mpg. This is a true net number unlike the BS you will see in the media.

I HIGHLY recommend getting a California Compliance car while you can. It is the deal of a lifetime if you fit the profile. My first month electric bill went down by 80 percent of the lease payment on the car INCLUDING the cost to charge it.

The gap has definitely widened between the 335d and our Civic Hybrid which burns regular and gets 30 mpg around town and 40 on the highway at 85 mph.

Just keep reminding yourself that you need to factor in the performance of the car. Compare it to a 335i burning premium and we still come out on top. Plus...the 335d is....SPECIAL .
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  #3  
Old 11-19-2014, 09:59 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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Location: San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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Diesel is essentially the same as fuel oil. Winter weather means more demand for this petroleum product. Prices go up.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2014, 02:32 AM
glangford glangford is offline
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Diesel also doesn't fluctuate as rapidly as gas prices do. The bottom has dropped out of gas prices. I've seen it now for 2.51 for unleaded regular, premium for around 290. The last time I filled up with diesel it was 3.39. Three months ago diesel was cheaper than premium. I did see diesel yesterday at 3.29, so it is dropping, just not as rapidly.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2014, 07:21 AM
dragoncoach dragoncoach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
Diesel is essentially the same as fuel oil. Winter weather means more demand for this petroleum product. Prices go up.
The US all exports a lot of its diesel production. This in turn keeps the price of diesel up. You would think we would try to take care of our own before sending so much diesel offshore. But, I suppose it's all just business. There would be a lot more diesel cars if the price were around $2.50/gal.
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2014, 07:41 AM
Pierre Louis Pierre Louis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragoncoach View Post
The US all exports a lot of its diesel production. This in turn keeps the price of diesel up. You would think we would try to take care of our own before sending so much diesel offshore. But, I suppose it's all just business. There would be a lot more diesel cars if the price were around $2.50/gal.
As per my research, its not that diesel is too expensive, but the price is held higher due to demand for exported USLD, its that gasoline is still what one would call a "waste-product" of diesel production. (When Rockefeller developed his oil business, it was for kerosene which was use to light lamps. As you know, kerosene and diesel are very close. Gasoline was dumped into the ground as a waste product of kerosene production at first!) Gasoline prices are artificially low because there is a surplus and no demand for export. Europe indeed exports its excess gasoline to the US Northeast, so diesel prices will always be higher as a matter of course. This was an unintended consequence of regulations that made ULSD mandatory - it became suitable for export.

Those that argue that diesel is "easier" to refine or that gasoline is a "higher" distillate than diesel don't really know what happens - each barrel of oil "refines" into different types of distillate so that refining one automatically gives you access to the other for much the same cost and complexity. Sure there are things done to gasoline that may be called "more refining" but since diesel now is made into ULSD there is more to its refining than in the past.

In any case, prices are dictated as expected by supply and demand, and the demand worldwide is for diesel.

Also crude oil has different grades and will produce different levels of final product as do different refineries as they are set up.

PL
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Last edited by Pierre Louis; 11-20-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2014, 12:51 PM
SMG_II SMG_II is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN007 View Post
Local Safeway (Chevron Gas) in Northern California outside of Bay Area. Similarly whacked.


$2.919 reg

$3.039 mid

$3.139 prem

$3.499 diesel


I have a "Hybrid Garage" with 1 petrol, 1 hybrid, 1 diesel, and 1 EV car.

The 335d is finding itself spending less time around town getting 25mpg. That is what the EV is for, so it takes some of the sting out of it.

EV is $.025 per mile for me. $3.50 is 35 kWh and maths out to over 100 mpg. This is a true net number unlike the BS you will see in the media.

I HIGHLY recommend getting a California Compliance car while you can. It is the deal of a lifetime if you fit the profile. My first month electric bill went down by 80 percent of the lease payment on the car INCLUDING the cost to charge it.

The gap has definitely widened between the 335d and our Civic Hybrid which burns regular and gets 30 mpg around town and 40 on the highway at 85 mph.

Just keep reminding yourself that you need to factor in the performance of the car. Compare it to a 335i burning premium and we still come out on top. Plus...the 335d is....SPECIAL .
In Los Angeles, diesel's also running $0.20-$0.30/gallon higher than premium

DaveN007, are you running a solar setup at home by chance?

When you were shopping for an EV, which were your top 3 picks? I have a long commute (60 miles roundtrip) with traffic, so an EV makes a lot of sense. I just did the i3 extended test drive and that car really grew on me! However, I think it's a bit too pricey, and not ideal for our growing family (little one just turned one) since we're trying to just have 2 cars.

The Mrs. drives 110 miles roundtrip against traffic, so I'm thinking a diesel is best for her next car
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2014, 10:04 PM
Hangman4358 Hangman4358 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattebury View Post
Weird,

Local gas station has:

Regular - $2.999
Mid - $3.099
Premium - $3.199
Diesel - $3.499

Diesel is usually the same price as premium, now it $0.30 higher! At least I'm averaging 38!
For most of the summer diesel was 10 to 15 cents cheaper than regular in Encinitas depending on where you were looking exactly. Especially the shell by the REI. There were times when I was paying under $3 with 20 cents off from ralph's rewards.

I have been out of town for a few weeks and won't be back until Tuesday so I can't say if it has changed much up there. But even living in the Del Mar/Carmel Valley Area I would just time my fill ups with trips to home depot or target or whatever in Encinitas because diesel by the shell at off of carmel country rd and the 56 was always more expensive than premium.

I have no clue how it is further south.
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  #9  
Old 11-21-2014, 01:49 AM
DaveN007 DaveN007 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG_II View Post
In Los Angeles, diesel's also running $0.20-$0.30/gallon higher than premium

DaveN007, are you running a solar setup at home by chance?

When you were shopping for an EV, which were your top 3 picks? I have a long commute (60 miles roundtrip) with traffic, so an EV makes a lot of sense. I just did the i3 extended test drive and that car really grew on me! However, I think it's a bit too pricey, and not ideal for our growing family (little one just turned one) since we're trying to just have 2 cars.

The Mrs. drives 110 miles roundtrip against traffic, so I'm thinking a diesel is best for her next car
I don't have solar. My roof needs to be replaced before we can get it.

This means that getting the EV was a huge win because of the EV-A rate plan we are now on.

I didn't really shop for an EV as much as lease the Fiat because it ends up completely paying for itself. My utility bill reduction plus the rental car credits (I get to use and get expense reimbursement) are greater than the lease payment plus the insurance. The savings versus gas is gravy. That ends up being between $50 and $100 a month on top of the car being free.

I personally like the style of the Fiat and love driving it, but it has a specific purpose. It is awesome for the kind of extended-suburbs we live in. Lots of 35-65mph driving to and from schools, shopping, etc. You could reliably do a 60 mile round trip commute under any circumstances. No worry about AC, heat or lights...you could drive 75mph the whole way.

But then you would NEED the 240v charger installed. That is $500 to $1000 all-in depending on your set-up. This allows you to fully recharge the car in 3-4 hours.

I am generally at about 50 percent when the Fiat goes into the garage. It recharges while I am asleep on 120v and is full in the morning.

The Fiat isn't in the same class as an i3. My parents and brother both have them with the range extender.

I would look at the Fiat, the Leaf and the Kia Soul (seriously). All could do what you need, but you are only going to have another 10 or 20 miles of detour range before the car needs a charge. The Leaf is better on the highway. It feels larger. The Soul does also. i don't mind the feel of the Fiat, but my 16 year-old daughter (drives a Civic Hybrid) finds it "twitchy". She LOVES driving it around the burbs, though.

The Fiat and the Soul are Compliance Cars, so you should be able to negotiate ridiculous deals on them. The manufacturers don't make any money selling them. The government forces them to do so.
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Last edited by DaveN007; 11-21-2014 at 01:50 AM.
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2014, 04:12 AM
DBV DBV is offline
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In the Cleveland area, diesel is $3.79 (at least in my area) and regular is $2.79. It was even about $1.25 spread a week or so ago. Never have seen the spread that large before. Very frustrating, that oil and regular gas have plummeted and diesel stays the same. Typically, when I travel to Canada, diesel is very similar or even cheaper than regular. Something is wacky with diesel in the US. Surprise that the truckers don't try and revolt against it.
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  #11  
Old 11-21-2014, 06:08 AM
MotoWPK MotoWPK is offline
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As pointed out previously, the seasonality of diesel prices runs counter to that of gasoline; diesel demand and prices rise in the fall (largely due to increasing heating oil demand which is a middle distillate like diesel) then falls in the spring, while gasoline demand and prices rise in the spring/early summer as the 'driving season' arrives.

In addition, the long term out look for demand growth is greater for diesel than gasoline. The developing world is adding vehicles at a far greater rate than the developed world with a significant percentage of those being diesel.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2014, 10:22 AM
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need4speed need4speed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
diesel is essentially the same as fuel oil. Winter weather means more demand for this petroleum product. Prices go up.
+1
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2014, 07:53 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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Location: San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragoncoach View Post
...There would be a lot more diesel cars if the price were around $2.50/gal.
Or if gasoline was >$5/gal
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2014, 07:14 AM
mattebury mattebury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangman4358 View Post
For most of the summer diesel was 10 to 15 cents cheaper than regular in Encinitas depending on where you were looking exactly. Especially the shell by the REI. There were times when I was paying under $3 with 20 cents off from ralph's rewards.
A bit further north from me, wouldn't make sense for me to fuel up there, but I will remember that if ever I'm up that way. Maybe when my daughter and I make the Disneyland run.
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2014, 11:57 AM
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MarcusSDCA MarcusSDCA is offline
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Just paid $3.34 for diesel at Arco on Linda Vista Road near Genesee. That was way cheaper than several stations in Kearny Mesa (3.59). Still the gap between diesel and gas is huge now....and not the good kind of huge.

I actually take Convoy to Linda Vista to Pt Loma (home) just to pass by this Arco station which always bests the competition. Not to mention stopping at Rockies Frozen Yogurt on the way.
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  #16  
Old 11-24-2014, 12:32 PM
Ninong Ninong is offline
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Here is what we have today (11/24/14) in Southeast Louisiana where the prices are usually about the lowest in the country.

Regular: 254
Middle: 269
Premium: 299
Diesel: 339

So diesel down here is 40 cents more than premium.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2014, 04:53 PM
glangford glangford is offline
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Originally Posted by Ninong View Post
Here is what we have today (11/24/14) in Southeast Louisiana where the prices are usually about the lowest in the country.

Regular: 254
Middle: 269
Premium: 299
Diesel: 339

So diesel down here is 40 cents more than premium.
I paid 3.29 for diesel in AL today!
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2014, 01:22 PM
nuclearbeef nuclearbeef is offline
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Cheapest station in Memphis has:

Regular: $2.39
Diesel: $3.18

After using my kroger discount points, I paid $2.78/gal.
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  #19  
Old 11-26-2014, 04:43 PM
listerone listerone is offline
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I buy most of my diesel in Massachusetts (much cheaper than here) and in warmer weather it's about the same as mid-grade....in winter it's a few pennies more than premium.I paid $3.27 yesterday at a BP station in suburban Boston.
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:44 AM
nuclearbeef nuclearbeef is offline
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The smallest spread of diesel to regular around here is @$.70.
This equates to @30% increase over regular, wiping out any cost savings for diesel ownership.
You have to prefer driving a diesel for reasons other than savings in order to justify buying a diesel.

For the vase majority of the US population, you would need to see a substantial savings in owning a diesel to convince them to buy one.
As long as the spread in price between diesel and regular remains this large, diesel passenger cars will remain an oddity in the US.
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  #21  
Old 11-28-2014, 01:33 PM
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MarcusSDCA MarcusSDCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearbeef View Post
The smallest spread of diesel to regular around here is @$.70.
This equates to @30% increase over regular, wiping out any cost savings for diesel ownership.
You have to prefer driving a diesel for reasons other than savings in order to justify buying a diesel.

.
Diesel isn't always more expensive than gas.....and now in San Diego the lowest price for diesel is only 22 cents higher than the lowest price for premium gas....which is what BMWs drink....

Anyway at 45 mpg I'm not going to sweat it.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:14 PM
Ninong Ninong is offline
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The federal excise tax on diesel is 6 cents a gallon more than gasoline. It wasn't always that way. They used to be taxed the same but in 1984 President Reagan signed into law the Deficit Reduction Act (which increased taxes by $50 billion) and one of its features was to reduce the annual use tax on heavy trucks in exchange for raising the federal tax on diesel by 5 cents more than gasoline. Thirty years ago almost all diesel in America was used by heavy trucks and the increased tax on diesel was supposed to compensate for the increased wear and tear they caused on the highway system.

Today, the federal excise tax on gasoline is $0.184/gallon. For diesel, itís $0.244/gallon. So there's a built-in 6 cents a gallon difference. In Europe diesel is cheaper than gasoline.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:29 PM
Ninong Ninong is offline
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
I paid 3.29 for diesel in AL today!
Our diesel is now down to $3.29, too. Regular dropped by only about 5 cents but premium dropped by 15-20 cents. Diesel dropped 10 cents. That's just in the last 4 days. Premium is now anywhere from $2.74 to $3.04 depending on brand and station. Most stations have premium at $2.79.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2014, 09:27 PM
Pierre Louis Pierre Louis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearbeef View Post
The smallest spread of diesel to regular around here is @$.70.
This equates to @30% increase over regular, wiping out any cost savings for diesel ownership.
You have to prefer driving a diesel for reasons other than savings in order to justify buying a diesel.

For the vase majority of the US population, you would need to see a substantial savings in owning a diesel to convince them to buy one.
As long as the spread in price between diesel and regular remains this large, diesel passenger cars will remain an oddity in the US.
I agree that the masses think this way.

When compared to similarly powered vehicles of similar type (335i vs 335d) the advantage of diesel is substantial, even with a 30% increase in cost over regular (but the difference becomes less compelling, I agree, until you do the Math using the price of premium gas).

When you compare apples to apples, diesel still wins. My calculations often lead to a 50% break-even point, given similar maintenance/repair costs. Currently, my 30 mpg 335d would be 20 mpg with the 335i, a 50% difference in fuel cost (kind of depends which direction you use the numbers: the diesel gets 50% better fuel economy in the real world while a gasoline version gets 33% less than the diesel - its a statistical trick!). Using EPA numbers, which give gasoline US market designed cars an advantage, you get a false preference in some minds for gasoline.

If I was to compare a BMW to a Toyota Corolla that uses regular gas sure, the Toyota wins as the more economical fuel-wise. But many diesel cars are alternatives to premium gasoline cars, not regular, and the difference is not close to 30% (yet). Using the concept of enjoying the ride gives a completely different result.

PL
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Last edited by Pierre Louis; 11-28-2014 at 09:34 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2014, 07:51 AM
mattebury mattebury is offline
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Wackiness starting to abate, if only slowly. When I first posted 10 days ago, diesel was $0.30 more per gallon than gasoline. Today, it's down to $0.28 more than premium.

Regular - $2.919
Mid - $3.019
Premium - $3.119
Diesel - $3.399

Some have equated this to diesel no longer penciling out with such a premium for diesel.

Using the Fuelly average for a 2014 328i, 28.6 MPG and a 2014 328d, 38.8 MPG, I come up with $0.1091 / mile for the 328i and $0.0876 / mile for the 328d a delta of $0.0215 at the prices stated above. At these prices, it would take approximately 70,000 miles to pay for the $1,500 premium of a diesel, or 5.8 years at 12k miles / year.

With this price structure, I'd agree with the penciling out statement unless you plan on driving it until it falls apart.

However, when I bought the car in January of this year, diesel was $3.859 per gallon and premium was on par with diesel, so using the same stats, the 328i is $0.1349 / mile and the 328d is $0.0995 / mile, a delta of $.0355 per mile. At this price it would only be 42,000 miles to pay for the $1,500 diesel premium, or 3.5 years at 12k miles / year.

Even with this price structure, you could argue that the 328d is only breakeven over the typical 4-year lease as compared to a 328i.

However, this is only one of the data points that I used to buy the car, love my d, would go out and buy another one today, even given the current pricing. I drank the diesel kool-aid long ago.

And with what's happening in the international oil markets, I think that we are going to see fuel prices continue at these low levels through most of 2015 (I can't believe that I'm calling $2.90 gas low ). I just hope (and I know, hope is not a strategy) that diesel calms down to premium levels so that I'm not paying $3.50-ish more per tank to fill up!

Happy Thanksgiving to you all!
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