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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 03-31-2014, 04:36 PM
aioros aioros is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i auto , '01 330xi
Warped rotors again >:(

this is the 3rd or 4th pair of front rotors and brake pads that get warped for the past 1-2yrs so far. i have used different brands of rotors and brake pads. the current rotors are centric hi carbon rotors and pads are axxis advanced ceramic pads. i changed the calipers from a 01 530i so maybe i can go with thicker rotors. i replaced the guide pins for brass bushings.
what would you recommend me to do?

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  #2  
Old 03-31-2014, 04:44 PM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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We have 3 cars at home. Every 2-4yr/30K-50K, the rotors warp a bit (slight vibration with braking).
I go to local OReilly autoparts, they resurface the rotors for $10/each.
Braking is smooth again.

PS: Advance Auto Parts does not resurface rotors. They rather sell you new rotors.
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2014, 05:42 PM
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hh3uunp hh3uunp is offline
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Don't slam on the brakes? Dont ride the brakes?

Turning them will just make them more likely to warp again
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  #4  
Old 03-31-2014, 06:42 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is online now
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step up to cross drilled front rotors...

you already have the sport pins... you simply driving hard..

get cross drilled rotors... you should get at least 2 sets of pads outta em.. At least i do.. and i beat the s%it outta my brakes.
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  #5  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:38 PM
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Everyone has vibration at one time or another so we tried to summarize the various causes in the following threads, which may or may not be helpful ...

- The main causes front-end clunk while driving (1) & clunking while braking (1) & the generic causes of vehicle vibration while highway driving (0) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) & while highway braking (1) (2) (3) & why it's not rotor "warp" (1) & severe ABS shuddering while slow speed braking on bumps (1) & how fluid-filled thrust arm bushings crack and tear causing the BMW to vibrate at speed (0) (1) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) & a comprehensive TireRack vehicle vibration diagnosis chart (1) (jpg) with wheel match mounting hints (1) & how a worn drive shaft, flex disc, center bearing, or "giunti Boschi", aka giubo (it's not spelled guibo although it sounds like it is to some) can cause the vehicle to vibrate (1) (2) (3) (4) & how to repair the rear driveshaft seal by the differential (1) & how to repair the inner constant velocity (CV) half-drive shaft (1).
*******>********>


































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Last edited by bluebee; 04-06-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:42 PM
Dale Doeback Dale Doeback is offline
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I believe, as do many others, that there is no such thing as "warped rotors". There is a long list of things it could be. For me it was the front thrust arm/traction strut. There was a bad bushing that leaked all of its fluid and caused a violent shaking slowing down from highway speeds. Dave@zeckhausen racing knows everything about brakes and he drives an e39 540. I think hes on this forum too
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  #7  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:47 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is online now
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oh there is warped rotors... for sure...

do a few 130 to 55 mph stops... boil some fluid.. youll see what "warpage" is all about
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  #8  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
oh there is warped rotors... for sure..
I think the way cn90 put is is the best, since he is fully familiar with the problem using the word "warp" (which means different things to different people).
To the Aspergers people like me, it means the rotor is "wavy" (ever so slightly); yet, to others, it merely means the driver feels vibration while braking.

Clearly the OP is talking about brake related vibration, the cause of which, we all know, can be many things, only one of which would be rotors which have actually 'warped' (as in potato chip), but many of which would be cured by turning or replacing or remounting the rotors and calipers.

The only reason I would ask for measurements is that rotor warp is less likely than rotor DTV, both of which would cause vibration - and - both of which might be cured by turning or replacing the rotors.
While DTV (and runout) may be difficult to measure on the vehicle (since very small increments may be involved), I believe true rotor warp (as in potato chip wavy, ever so slight) can only be faithfully measured off the vehicle.

So, the key problem I have with the word "warp" is that I've never seen true warp ever proven on this forum, with actual measurements, off the car.
Is that a correct understanding (that true rotor warp can only be measured off the vehicle)?
*******>********>
analysis_of_the_vehicle_brake_judder_problem_by_em ploying_a_simplified_sourcepathreceiver_model.pdf (548.7 KB, 24 views)
A-Parametric-Study-Brake-Roughness.pdf (132.9 KB, 23 views)
Judder-Diagnosis-Prevention.pdf (126.2 KB, 22 views)
Improved_mathematical_models_of_vehicle_brake_judd er_and_experimental_observations.pdf (5.23 MB, 26 views)
Judder_vibration_in_disc_brakes_excited_by_thermoe lastic_instability.pdf (925.9 KB, 39 views)
Aspects_of_Disc_Brake_Judder.pdf (342.7 KB, 119 views)
Braking_Process_in_Automobiles_Investigation_of_th e_Thermoelastic_Instability_Phenomenon.pdf (1.07 MB, 19 views)
Brake_Vibration_and_Noise-A_Review_and_Discussion.pdf (592.0 KB, 32 views)
Hitachi_NVH_Simulation_Technology_for_Disc_Brake_C alipers.pdf (323.3 KB, 21 views)
Experimental_Analysis_of_Disc_Thickness_Variation_ Development_in_Motor_Vehicle_Brakes_1of3.pdf (6.98 MB, 51 views)
Experimental_Analysis_of_Disc_Thickness_Variation_ Development_in_Motor_Vehicle_Brakes_2of3.pdf (6.98 MB, 16 views)
Experimental_Analysis_of_Disc_Thickness_Variation_ Development_in_Motor_Vehicle_Brakes_3of3.pdf (1.13 MB, 33 views)
Thermal_Brake_Judder_Investigations_Using_a_High_S peed_Dynamometer_1of2.pdf (6.04 MB, 48 views)
Thermal_Brake_Judder_Investigations_Using_a_High_S peed_Dynamometer_2of2.pdf (3.39 MB, 20 views)
surface_temperature_distribution_in_a_composite_br ake_rotor.pdf (531.1 KB, 39 views)
discussion_of_the_characteristic_of_brake_judder_a nd_the_necessary_data_acquisition_system_for_c.pdf (314.0 KB, 21 views)
Order_domain_analysis_of_speed-dependent_friction-induced_torque_in_a_brake_experiment.pdf (2.08 MB, 38 views)
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Last edited by bluebee; 04-06-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:24 PM
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Rotor warp is the effect of over-tightening the lugs causing a pulling of the hub and rotors. My instructor at Vo-Tech called it brake wobble, but it is simply warping (rippling is probably a better term) and is noticed through the pedal at all speeds, but accentuated by high speed braking from highway speeds.
Excessive rippling while annoying, does not cause long term damage unless left uncorrected for too long.

So, in short, when you get tires, brakes, rotation, etc. ensure the shop only uses torque wrenches or impact/air with torque sticks.
I actually dont even trust torque sticks. I always use the tried and true torque wrench with the click-click to make sure I got it right.
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  #10  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:47 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is online now
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No bee... it can be messured on and off..

ok lets take it to a mechine class situation:

Your test that you show'd up there (that was the other thread with the vise grips and dial indicator) is pritty much how every auto tech will do it.. while its correct :on a macheist level it would be incorrect why..

if you take that same rotor and chuck it up in a laith, then you zero on center... then move away from center thats what your "runout" will be .... its pretty much the same thing.. just the level of precision is different..

if you take a rotor that is "warped' chuck it on a laith, indicate it.. then spin it at 800rpm your dial indicator will go possitive and negative and the total out of round number would be the postive and the negative combined

+5-5 is 10 thousands out of round (to the face)

torque'd your lugs or over tighting them will not lead to warping.. its simply a insureence for those people who you have seen on the side of the road with there wheel gone and there car laying on the brake rotor


and as far as the toruqe thing goes.. thats a good practice... but its completly class room
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  #11  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:48 PM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is online now
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"potato chip" would be a extreem... id say anything more then 15k out round
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:49 PM
aioros aioros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Everyone has vibration at one time or another so we tried to summarize the various causes in the following threads, which may or may not be helpful ...

- The main causes front-end clunk while driving (1) & clunking while braking (1) & the generic causes of vehicle vibration while highway driving (0) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) & while highway braking (1) (2) (3) & why it's not rotor "warp" (1) & severe ABS shuddering while slow speed braking on bumps (1) & how fluid-filled thrust arm bushings crack and tear causing the BMW to vibrate at speed (0) (1) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) & a comprehensive TireRack vehicle vibration diagnosis chart (1) (jpg) with wheel match mounting hints (1) & how a worn drive shaft, flex disc, center bearing, or "giunti Boschi", aka giubo (it's not spelled guibo although it sounds like it is to some) can cause the vehicle to vibrate (1) (2) (3) (4) & how to repair the rear driveshaft seal by the differential (1) & how to repair the inner constant velocity (CV) half-drive shaft (1).
although i have not read all of the links, i can tell you this (done in the past week): new control arms, balanced wheels, alignment just done, new rema drive shaft. giubo and tranny mounts done a few months ago.

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  #13  
Old 03-31-2014, 10:13 PM
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moots moots is offline
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In my 18 years of driving BMWs..I encountered a warped disc on my e34...the RH rear to be specific.
This was due to sticking calipers which overheated the disc.
Replaced with new disc and overhauled the calipers.Heck i didn't even replaces the seals as there were still pretty good.
Cleaned and reassembled and all was well till I sold the car 2 years after....
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2014, 11:00 PM
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hh3uunp hh3uunp is offline
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if ed china does it than it's fine with me just don't spray paint your car
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2014, 05:50 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
"potato chip" would be a extreem... id say anything more then 15k out round
I do understand that all these causes of vibration, whether they be true rotor warp, or disc thickness variation, or runout, are in the thousandths of an inch.

I was just using potato chip as a 'description' of how true warp would differ from, say, DTV or runout, both of which could easily cause brake related vibration.

Personally, I'd think DTV the most likely cause, but it's equally difficult to measure because it doesn't take a lot of pad deposit to cause a vibration at speed.

Luckily, I can propose a free test, which would be to run the common rebedding procedure.

That is, if, after a series of sequential rebedding runs, the vibration changes in character, then, I believe, that would be one piece of evidence that might support uneven pad deposits as the more likely cause of the OP's brake-related vibration.
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2014, 05:57 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moots View Post
In my 18 years of driving BMWs..I encountered a warped disc on my e34...the RH rear to be specific.
This was due to sticking calipers which overheated the disc.
Rotors 'can' warp; but all I was saying was that, without measurements, I don't know how anyone could say that a rotor had actually warped as opposed to the other (more common) causes of rotor-related vibration (e.g., BFV or DTV due to pad imprints, for example).

EDIT: On that video, it was very interesting to see the turning of the rotors on the vehicle but at a stated "couple of hours" shop time, for a bimmer rotor, the shop rate (at least here in San Jose) would exceed the cost of new rotors.

Note: I do realize that Porsche rotors may have a wholly different cost equation than bimmer rotors.
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Last edited by bluebee; 04-03-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2014, 06:03 AM
Burning2nd Burning2nd is online now
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i should also add that to check the rotors on the car.. you must replace the lug nuts and tight the lugs..

audi, VW BMW
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Old 04-01-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
i should also add that to check the rotors on the car.. you must replace the lug nuts and tight the lugs.
That's a good point.

In fact, you can see in this (re-used) posed picture from my first thread ever on Bimmerfest, that I don't even have the lug nuts in place for this picture.
- One user's example of a complete brake job with all torque figures, specs, measurements, fluids, decisions, tools, tricks, mistakes, suppliers, costs, etc., that it entails (1)

Of course, that photo was set up - but - the next time I check my rotors, I'll make sure to take a more representative photo.

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  #19  
Old 04-01-2014, 06:12 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Warped rotors do exist, just stand next to the lathe machine and one shall see.
No matter what the cause is, I personally do not care b/c over the last 25 years fixing all these cars, rotors warp after 2-4yr, I simply resurface the rotor for $10 and move on with my life.
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  #20  
Old 04-01-2014, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
I simply resurface the rotor for $10 and move on with my life.
I know your feelings, since this topic has been covered ad infinitum; and that's why I said that you had understood and said it best.

The OP feels brake related vibration.
There are many causes, but fewer solutions.

The most common solution, I agree, is to resurface or replace the rotors (which will work whether the true cause is "warp" or "DTV" and might even work for some causes of "runout").

The key issue that I have with thinking that (true) warp is the problem is that (the much more common) DTV related vibration can be caused by braking HABITS. If that is the true cause of the OP's repeated vibration, then it will happen to the OP again. And again. And again. And again.
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2014, 08:46 AM
aioros aioros is offline
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I have been told by many mechanics and some salesperson at autoparts stores that ceramic brake pads create too much heat. Obviously, no scientific proof on those comments. Besides, ceramic brake pad manufacturers would not be in business if that was the case. Guess i need to go oem brake pads, either jurid or pagid
I replaced the original front calipers with a pair from a 01 530i, so do you think I can fit the bigger size rotor in my car?
fyi: a '99 528i uses 296x22mm front rotors and an '01 530i uses 324x30mm front rotors
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:59 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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I have had good experience with Pagid.

Brake is brake, after so many years dealing with brake, I learn the routine of rotor and pad issues.
No biggie, just learn how to deal with these mundane things and move on with your life.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aioros View Post
Guess i need to go oem brake pads, either jurid or pagid
I realize some people won't want to hear this, but, I'm actually trying to help since pedal pulsation is often a REPEATED problem.

What I'm trying to say is that the short-term solution to pedal pulsation is the same whether the true cause of the vibration is permanent rotor distortion or uneven friction deposits ... but ... the LONG TERM SOLUTION is different!
Most examples of so-called "warp" are actually due to uneven pad deposits (EDIT based on RDL information later in this thread = BTV can also cause steering wheel vibration), so, while the short term solution is to rebed or machine or replace the rotors, the long-term solution is different.

I realize this is a hard pill to swallow, but, what I'm trying to say is that the long-term solution to repeated brake-related vibration might just be to change braking habits!


So that's why the CAUSE of the pedal pulsation is important to know. That cause is rarely a distorted rotor!
Take a look at this article, for example:
- Warped Brake Discs, By Michael Grant
"
Every warped brake disc that we've investigated with the assistance of our suppliers shows uneven patches of friction material from the brake pads on the surface of the disc."

Let's say, for argument's sake, that your bedding and braking habits are actually what is causing uneven pad deposits.
a) Could pedal pulsation (and/or steering wheel or vehicle vibration) occur repeatedly? Yes.
b) Could it transcend pad choices? Yes.
c) Could it transcend rotor choices? Yes.
d) Short term, would it be solved with a new or turned rotor? Yes.
e) Long term, would changing the calipers, pads, or rotors make any difference? Probably not.
That last answer might be different, had the true cause of the pedal pulsation been permanently distorted rotors due to high heat applications.

So, what I'm trying to say is that, while the SHORT TERM solution to DTV, BTV, and permanent rotor distortion (i.e., warp) is the same, the LONG TERM solution isn't the same.

BTW, I opened a new thread today, asking for proof, from anyone, of true permanent rotor distortion on a street-use BMW E39, since I have never seen such proof to date.
- PICTURES requested of the measurements of a permanently distorted "warped" E39 street rotor

Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
just learn how to deal with these mundane things and move on with your life.
I agree. I changed MY braking habits.
And, I replaced my rotors (machining doesn't seem to be cost efficient here in the Silicon Valley).
- One user's example of a complete brake job with all torque figures, specs, measurements, fluids, decisions, tools, tricks, mistakes, suppliers, costs, etc., that it entails (1)

However, my only point is that the short term solution to rotor-related pedal pulsation is the same, whether it's due to permanent distortion or to uneven pad deposits; but the LONG TERM SOLUTION to repeated pedal pulsation is different depending on the actual cause.

Luckily, the long-term solution to pad deposition is to simply change your bedding and braking habits!

Since the long-term solution is different, it matters what the cause is.
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Last edited by bluebee; 04-03-2014 at 07:55 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2014, 01:05 PM
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chiefwej chiefwej is offline
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Go to Zeckhausen Racing and follow the instructions for rebedding the brakes. Nine times out of ten the "warped rotors" will suddenly go away. If not check your thrust bushings, that will cure most of the others. Warped rotors are truly very, very rare.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:17 PM
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INSANELY UNPREDICTABLE!
Location: in my house
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 536
Mein Auto: 1984 318i
So how does one "change their braking habits?" Explain that.


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