Tire rotation, anybody?

How many of you rotate your tires, i.e. move front tires to back and vice versa? At what miles do you do that?

On my other vehicles I am used to rotating the tires at about 7,500 miles or roughly every time I change the engine oil. Our X5 has now about 6,000 miles, so I am getting ready for a tire rotation.

BMW recommends not to rotate tires (from the owners' manual). In any case, all my rides have staggered set up. This is not an option to me.

I think it is due to the free maintenance...they would rather YOU buy tires than THEY rotate them...

Do you know why BMW does not recommend tire rotation? I intend to do it anyway, unless it somehow voids any warranty. You'll get more miles out of the tires.

OK, read the manual. It says (on page 238) that tire rotation will affect negatively the handling characteristics, whatever that means

I rotated my 2007 X53.0 every 5-7k miles and I was able to get 37k miles on it before rotating the 19 inch Sport Tires that came with the car.

Rotate unless you have a staggered setup.

i rotated my RFTs and got 31K out of them. i didn't notice any changes in handling.

Originally Posted by soldmystang

i rotated my RFTs and got 31K out of them. i didn't notice any changes in handling.

I will be rotating my "all season" tires with summer tires/wheels - I don't see any reason not to rotate tires unless they are staggered. It means they wear more evenly, so you really shouldn't notice any changes if you rotate often. Now if you rotate them after 20K miles, you might notice something funny if they are heavily worn in certain areas..

not to rotate because of different camber between front and back tire?? I was told front wheels are 0 camber and rear wheels are negative camber.
anyone knows official camber?

Originally Posted by finnbmw

OK, read the manual. It says (on page 238) that tire rotation will affect negatively the handling characteristics, whatever that means

Originally Posted by kkl

not to rotate because of different camber between front and back tire?? I was told front wheels are 0 camber and rear wheels are negative camber.
anyone knows official camber?

I believe the manual says "may"...BMW stopped recommending rotation when they began the free maintenance program- once they went to the stupidly long change intervals it was impractical to rotate tires multiple times through their life.

7500 is a fine interval, every oil change.

WHEELS don't have a camber. It is the chassis that has a camber. Yes the front and rear have different alignments specs, but you can put any wheel/tire assembly (assuming it is the right size) on either axle.

People need to understand how formal design and engineering works. BMW most likely has expanded the scope of the design control process to include 'design inputs' which most users might find questionable- or maybe don't match their needs. For example, a spec that says "Our 'customer' is the first person to buy the car from us", coupled with "Minimize maintenance costs and hassle" could result in all kinds of decisions- like 15k mile service intervals even though the overall car lifetime may drop from 200k to 150k.

I don't know, as I am not privy to their design processes, but there are some strange recommendations that BMW makes that are counter to logic. You can only say "modern fluids and assemblies need less service" for so long.... and it isn't only BMW that is doing this, the market has surely moved to a more disposable car.

A

Originally Posted by finnbmw

Do you know why BMW does not recommend tire rotation? I intend to do it anyway, unless it somehow voids any warranty. You'll get more miles out of the tires.

OK, read the manual. It says (on page 238) that tire rotation will affect negatively the handling characteristics, whatever that means

When I questioned this 'don't rotate' recommendation on our E53, I was told that the handling issue is due the different wear patterns front to back. IOW the different camber causes the fronts to wear more on the outside and the rears on the inside. So immediately after rotation the contact area/pressure of the front and rear tires is changed. And this could lead to reduced handling capability.

Of course evening out this wear is exactly the reason I wanted BMW to rotate my tires while it was still under warranty. The dealer declined, with the result that the E53 went through that first set of tires very quickly. The avg tread left was pretty good. But the inside of the rears went nearly to the steel

So after buying the replacements I rotated the tires front to rear every 7ish thousand miles and got much better tire life and IMO better handling/safety since the tires had more even tread (inside-outside & front-rear). For example, near the end of a tire's life that has not been rotated, the heavily worn (inside or outside) tread area is much more prone to hydroplaning. FWIW I ran the OEM Michelin tires the whole life of our E53. So the improved tire life was not due to running a different rubber compound etc.

Funf Dreisig

Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig

When I questioned this 'don't rotate' recommendation on our E53, I was told that the handling issue is due the different wear patterns front to back. IOW the different camber causes the fronts to wear more on the outside and the rears on the inside. So immediately after rotation the contact area/pressure of the front and rear tires is changed. And this could lead to reduced handling capability.

Maddeningly, dealers parrot a non-sensical half-truth and people go along...

If you rotate tires quickly enough- say at 20% of the lifetime, you will not get appreciable 'wear patterns' so it isn't an issue.

But BMW has a 15k+ interval on service, so they blithely say "Oh, at these long service intervals you will have wear patterns so it could adversely affect handling"

But then then shorten it- so as not to highlight the flaws in their maintenance plan to "rotating tires can adversely affect handling". This is repeated and never qualified, so even those highly trained 'experts' at the dealership truly believe it.


It really is simple- if the tire has no wear pattern that exceeds say a few mm from side to side, it is safe to rotate. Easy. Why not bring some rational logic to the process?

The answer is (1) then we'd have to rotate customers tires for free, and (2) this way we sell more tires to the idiots that buy tires from us.



A

PS Funf- just quoting you for ease, I suspect we are on the same page here....

Originally Posted by ard

...PS Funf- just quoting you for ease, I suspect we are on the same page here....

We are

FWIW our 2001 4.4i was the first vehicle that I ever took back to ANY dealer for standard maintenance. But since the 4.4i came with 'free' standard maintenance, I decided to give it a try and follow BMW maintenance recommendations to the letter, so as not to "void the warranty". I deeply regretted that decision by the end of the first year. I'm not making that mistake with our 2009 35d. It is being maintained to my standards (e.g. more frequent oil/filter changes, tire rotation, etc), with BMW contributing their part at conditions based oil services, and warranty repairs (e.g. the turbo charger air temp sensor).

Funf Dreisig

OK, so as a new owner with less than 1000 miles, what do you guys recommend? Wait for the 15K free mainteance or just go ahead an schedule a oil change and rotation with the dealer at my own expense?

Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig

, and warranty repairs (e.g. the turbo charger air temp sensor).

OT, but you may remember I had this done when trying to fix a CEL issue... after it was done, and successfully fixed the problem, BMW used all these reports of fixes to then launch an official field correction....

So my dealer has been calling and bugging me to come back in and have it done. I am resisting. I just don't want to waste half a day and have them screw with the car.....

Originally Posted by lionfish

OK, so as a new owner with less than 1000 miles, what do you guys recommend? Wait for the 15K free mainteance or just go ahead an schedule a oil change and rotation with the dealer at my own expense?

Kudos for thinking about proper maintenance for the long term.

The dealer will likely refuse to rotate the wheels. Go to any Big O, Americas, or Discount Tire and they will do it for a few bucks. Worth it. You can begin a relationship at that tire store that will serve you well. I have a Big O tire store that does all my cars- I just had them align my 996TT and we set the specs to where I wanted it. I was under the car with them and helping. The mounted PS2s on a set of $5000 HREs.... Most people would never take that level of wheels or cars to a Big O, but over the last 10 years I am on a first name basis with the owner, manager and two techs. There is only ONE guy that works on my wheels, only ONE guy that does my alignments. I tip well, and still save dramatically over dealer installs. I get a superior job.

Sorry, OT a bit.

On the oil change, the dealer will do this but you will be screwed. If there is any way you could DIY, you should. There are posts on this. Do you have a trusted mechanic? An oil change is not a big deal at all..... Oh, and no matter where it is done make sure they DO NOT reset the oil change interval

A

Did the tire rotation this morning by myself using the spare as the fifth tire. The jack lifts only one tire at the time, thus you will need an extra tire unless you put some type of blocks underneath (good idea? ). I spent about an hour, sweating like a pig

You will need to reset the TPM, instructions found on page 94-95, after the rotation.

Like ARD said...

I've had good service with tire purchases, tire/wheel balancing, rotation and alignment at basic tire stores like NTW over the years on everything: ranch truck to X5. If you can, develop a relationship so you can get access to the service bays. Letting them know that you really care (not just being bitchy) helps.

If you don't want to do your own intermediate oil services, I'd take it to a good independent shop. Chose one that you might use after the warranty expires. Here again building a relationship is a good thing.

Funf Dreisig

p.s. As I've posted previously, BMW replaced nearly all of the front suspension on our 2001 4.4i in several failed attempts to cure a loud click/knocking sound when turning at slow speeds on un-level ground. Eventually I fixed the problem at a BMW CCA work day at the local dealer: grit buildup in the rubber sway bar mount caused it to stick and release with a click/knock that was amplified by the large aluminum frame stiffening plate under the engine. But the credit for the diagnosis should actually go to an NTW tech who pointed out, and explained the cause of, a similar clicking sound while doing the alignment on our ranch truck

Originally Posted by finnbmw

Did the tire rotation this morning by myself using the spare as the fifth tire. The jack lifts only one tire at the time, thus you will need an extra tire unless you put some type of blocks underneath (good idea? ). I spent about an hour, sweating like a pig

You will need to reset the TPM, instructions found on page 94-95, after the rotation.

blocks? good lord son, buy some jack stands.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-ton-j...set-38847.html

Don't have the skills and knowlege to change my tires. Wish I was that handy.

Don't trust those mom and pop shops to service my brand new car too.

I follow the BMW owner manual.

Originally Posted by soldmystang

blocks? good lord son, buy some jack stands.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-ton-j...set-38847.html

Here in GA we call it "The Redneck Solution"...

Originally Posted by lionfish

Don't have the skills and knowlege to change my tires. Wish I was that handy.

With all due respect...

I made it a point that even my daughter could do this if she needed to. I could actually understand not wanting to, but not being able to is just an alien concept to me.

I cannot imagine a life in which I was unable manipulate and control my environment with my own hands.

Just my personal view, clearly different than others...

A

Originally Posted by ard

With all due respect...

I made it a point that even my daughter could do this if she needed to. I could actually understand not wanting to, but not being able to is just an alien concept to me.

I cannot imagine a life in which I was unable manipulate and control my environment with my own hands.

Just my personal view, clearly different than others...

A

With all due respect, Why go through the hassel when I could just simply have someone else do it for me. My time is more valuable than hanging with a few tires.

Originally Posted by lionfish

....My time is more valuable than .....

I always wonder how people measure the time they "save" by having someone else do relatively simple maintenance tasks on their vehicle. For example, do they count....
* the time spent driving to and from the service facility
* the time spent interfacing with the service adviser
* the time spent in a waiting room

FWIW here is how I measure my valuable time. Taking our X5 to the dealer (or even the closest NTW, etc.) for a tire rotation (or fill in the blank) would cost me...
* 2 hours round trip drive time (4 if the job required leaving the X5)
* about 15-30 minutes interfacing with the SA & cashier
* roughly the same length of time waiting, as it would take me to rotate the tires myself. It might take me a little longer to do the rotation, but I'd start on it right away.

Oh and while I had each wheel off, I'd check the pads, look for any fluid leaks, torn suspension boots, odd tire wear, etc... IOW I'd get a lot more out doing the rotation myself than just getting the tires rotated.

So by my calculations, my time is too valuable to waste driving to/from, waiting around and dealing with the dealer. But I do miss out on the 'free' latte and biscotti.

Funf Dreisig