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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #26  
Old 07-23-2010, 07:01 AM
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0428 0428 is offline
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Originally Posted by alexmish View Post
for those who doubt my abilities, I work in IT and quite familiar with computers and user interfaces and logistics behind them
Bush was president of our country for 8 years, you would think he knows what to do and do a good job at it........... Sorry mish, this one line of yours opened up for some fun on this hot and humid summer day in NY.
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Last edited by 0428; 07-23-2010 at 07:10 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2010, 07:48 AM
alexmish alexmish is offline
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Originally Posted by 0428 View Post
Bush was president of our country for 8 years, you would think he knows what to do and do a good job at it........... Sorry mish, this one line of yours opened up for some fun on this hot and humid summer day in NY.
By all means, take a swag at it...
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2010, 11:15 AM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by WoodmanX5 View Post
I think these posts hit the nail on the head. If the techs know how to refill the DEF, then this is much less of an issue for the customers.

The BMW policy as best I can tell is that they will only refill the DEF (under the preventive maintenance program), when your car is due for its regular service. Outside of that, it is the owner's responsibility to pay for the fluid. .
Correct- you suffered due to incompetence.

On the second point, there is a legal mistake in BMW's stated warranty and maintenance booklet that creates a problem for them. While their policy is how you've outlined, they WILL, when pressed by someone that can press the issue, agree to cover DEF service outside of the oil service. in your case it is a no-brainer, you were not using DEF at a high rate, rather the BMW dealer service organization was not doing their jobs. (Or your def system was/is defective.)

A
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2010, 07:43 PM
barbja barbja is offline
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Originally Posted by alexmish View Post
Regarding the range for the active tank.... The active tank is 1.6gals, and the passive is 4.5gal, for the total of 6.1gal. Given the average service interval of approximately 12,000 miles, one can see that "normal" use of DEF is around 2,000 miles per 1 gal of DEF. The active tank is 1.6 gals, thus the range on it is 3200 miles. Since the warning indicator comes around 1000 miles to-go, the amount of DEF needed to top off the active tank is around 1.1 gallons, which is 2 "BMW bottles".
I have about 3200 miles on my car and I just got the DEF warning today. When the car is delivered, does the dealer fill the main tank, or does the factory? I picked up my car at the PC, so if the dealer is the one that normally fills the DEF all the way, that would explain why I'm getting the warning now -- otherwise, why in the heck would I only get 4k out of 6gal of Urea??

Should I try to get the dealer to fill it for free, or just schlep myself out to buy some and fill it up myself?
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  #30  
Old 07-31-2010, 08:05 PM
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Great discussion and worth a read for those considering d
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  #31  
Old 07-31-2010, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by barbja View Post
I have about 3200 miles on my car and I just got the DEF warning today. When the car is delivered, does the dealer fill the main tank, or does the factory? I picked up my car at the PC, so if the dealer is the one that normally fills the DEF all the way, that would explain why I'm getting the warning now -- otherwise, why in the heck would I only get 4k out of 6gal of Urea??

Should I try to get the dealer to fill it for free, or just schlep myself out to buy some and fill it up myself?

If it runs out of DEF that soon, it either was not filled when you got the vehicle, or the pump from the primary to the secondary tank is not working.

I would insist the dealer address the issue, even if they fall back on the new BMW policy that DEF refills outside of the oil change interval are the owners responsibility.

I suspect the dealer will argue, but unless people push the dealers hard on this issue, BMW will do nothing to correct it. BMW typically does not fix the squeaky wheel, but they generally do when the wheel begins to smoke.
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:35 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
If it runs out of DEF that soon, it either was not filled when you got the vehicle, or the pump from the primary to the secondary tank is not working.

I would insist the dealer address the issue, .....
I agree.

Almost certainly, a warning on a new 35d at 3-4k is because both tanks were not filled properly or the larger passive tank is not refilling the small active tank do to a malfunction. The dealer should fix this at BMW's cost. What is troubling is that this was a PC delivery.

There have been a few reports that the connections that allow DEF to be transferred from the passive to the active tank were either never established, or failed due to pinched lines, broken parts. etc.

FWIW the active tank is in the front clip* that is installed intact, fairly late in the assembly process. There are a lot of connections between the main vehicle and the front clip that could be incorrectly assembled (e.g. wiring for the headlights, other lights. headlight washers, turbo intercooler, DEF plumbing and wiring, etc.). A mistake in most of these connections would show up quickly in the final QC inspection at the factory (e.g. headlights don't come on, coolant leaks, etc.). OTOH it appears that the final QC on the DEF connections/functioning is done by 35d owners 3-4k miles later

Funf Dreisig

* right front fender just behind the headlight.

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 08-01-2010 at 09:30 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2010, 07:54 AM
alexmish alexmish is offline
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when i shut off the engine, i hear some pumping/hissing noises once in a while in around the area of active def tank... I wonder if that is when the transfer takes place ?
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  #34  
Old 08-01-2010, 09:25 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmish View Post
when i shut off the engine, i hear some pumping/hissing noises once in a while in around the area of active def tank... I wonder if that is when the transfer takes place ?
AFAIK no one who actually knows has posted the real cause(s) of these noises after the engine is shut off. Of course that has never stopped folks (like me) from speculating

In addition to the passive->active DEF transfer you suggest, there is the possibility that these noises have to do with recovering the DEF that is between the active tank and the DEF injector so that in cold weather this DEF would not be subject to freezing.

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  #35  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:08 PM
alexmish alexmish is offline
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Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
AFAIK no one who actually knows has posted the real cause(s) of these noises after the engine is shut off. Of course that has never stopped folks (like me) from speculating

In addition to the passive->active DEF transfer you suggest, there is the possibility that these noises have to do with recovering the DEF that is between the active tank and the DEF injector so that in cold weather this DEF would not be subject to freezing.

Funf Dreisig
Hmm, an interesting theory... Makes sense.
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:30 AM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post
For those who have never seen a one of the no spill bottles of BMW DEF here's an image blatantly lifted from a thread on MWERKS The magic no spill gizmo is under that cool blue cap

And yeah the bottle with a VW label costs 1/3 of the BMW label version. Surprised?

Funf Dreisig
I hope the taker of that picture doesn't mistake that bottle for a certain brand of Vodka. Or, if they do, I hope it at least lowers their emissions.
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  #37  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:24 PM
1buck01 1buck01 is offline
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If I wouldn't have stumbled across this thread I might have never known about this useless emissions feature on the vehicle. Ive been on the forum for a week or two to find out as much as I can before my purchase, and this DEF feature is definitely a factor for reconsideration.

My first question would probably be, how do you disable DEF it and override the sensor?
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:36 PM
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chip4 chip4 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1buck01 View Post
If I wouldn't have stumbled across this thread I might have never known about this useless emissions feature on the vehicle. Ive been on the forum for a week or two to find out as much as I can before my purchase, and this DEF feature is definitely a factor for reconsideration.

My first question would probably be, how do you disable DEF it and override the sensor?
Not a useless feature -it is what makes these diesel engines 50 state leagal here in the US. I doubt you will be able to overide it -if you did it wont be easy.
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  #39  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:18 PM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Originally Posted by chip4 View Post
Not a useless feature -it is what makes these diesel engines 50 state leagal here in the US. I doubt you will be able to overide it -if you did it wont be easy.

Correct. The EPA would not approve/certify any engines using the SCR system unless it included a system which "could not be overridden" to prevent continued operation without DEF for the SCR system being present.

Can the system be overridden? I'm sure that it is possible. But I also believe it would be a lot easier to just make sure the vehicle had DEF. After all, you do get a thousand mile warning, and most truck stops sell DEF.
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  #40  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:11 PM
barbja barbja is offline
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Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
If it runs out of DEF that soon, it either was not filled when you got the vehicle, or the pump from the primary to the secondary tank is not working.

I would insist the dealer address the issue, even if they fall back on the new BMW policy that DEF refills outside of the oil change interval are the owners responsibility.

I suspect the dealer will argue, but unless people push the dealers hard on this issue, BMW will do nothing to correct it. BMW typically does not fix the squeaky wheel, but they generally do when the wheel begins to smoke.
I took the car in this morning and my SA didn't give me any problems at all about it. He said there was actually a service bulletin out about the passive tank not being filled at delivery.

But thennnn ... he called later in the day to say that my passive tank was full and transfer pump was bad; they had to order one and it would be in tomorrow. And thennn ... when I went in at the end of the day to pick up a loaner car, he said that a pump had come in on the parts truck this afternoon and he was psyched that he was going to have my car ready, until ... it still didn't work when they replaced the pump! At this point they don't know what's wrong. Oh my.
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  #41  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:03 PM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Originally Posted by barbja View Post
I took the car in this morning and my SA didn't give me any problems at all about it. He said there was actually a service bulletin out about the passive tank not being filled at delivery.

But thennnn ... he called later in the day to say that my passive tank was full and transfer pump was bad; they had to order one and it would be in tomorrow. And thennn ... when I went in at the end of the day to pick up a loaner car, he said that a pump had come in on the parts truck this afternoon and he was psyched that he was going to have my car ready, until ... it still didn't work when they replaced the pump! At this point they don't know what's wrong. Oh my.
If it were me I'd ask, that the techs check the DEF line between the two tanks for crimps etc..

As I posted previously, there have been reports that the line between the passive tank and active tank was "crimped" during assembly. Of course this would stop/slow the transfer of DEF. This may not be your problem but it never hurts to check the plumbing before you replace the pump

Funf Dreisig
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