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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 08-11-2010, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petee1997 View Post
You have just answered your question. People seem to be satisfied with MBTex and pass on the leather option. The BMW 5er with vinyl is unsaleable. There must be a reason,inferior product.
Both my Bimmers were ordered with leather and sport seats. Both my MB's were ordered with MBTex(Artico Leather in Canada)
The question remains: Why do they sell more E class than 5 series? Is it because a Benz is Benz is a Benz. There is simply NOTHING like it.....
I would agree with that. There also is simply NOTHING like a BMW, but in a different way. The car makers have two distinctly different points of view when designing their cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_c View Post
I would bet that a great number of MB buyers don't know that MB-Tex is not leather. I've heard the sneaky explanations from dealers saying that MB-Tex is a different kind of leather. Since no dealers have leather in stock, most people are not willng to wait for a custom ordered vehicle just for the leather, so they have to settle for MB-Tex. Maybe BMW buyers are more demanding? Just a thought.
You hit the nail on the head. BMW drivers are more demanding, because for them the car is primarily about the driving experience.

This is what I've said in the past - BMW owners tend to be the kind of people who like to take care of things themselves. They like to be involved in the process. Mercedes Benz owners tend to be the kind of people who like to have things taken care of for them. They generally don't care much about the details of how things get done, just that they get done. Call me when it's ready.

Just compare the relative opulence of the average Mercedes dealership to the relative all business like environment of the average BMW dealership.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 08-11-2010 at 06:31 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2010, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post

This is what I've said in the past - BMW owners tend to be the kind of people who like to take care of things themselves.
Agree....... which is why I'm concerned with the direction BMW is taking regarding maintenance. Lifetime fluids, no dipsticks, etc.......They're trending more and more toward the MB crowd who wants it ALL done for them.

Cars for the 'mindless' owner!
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by golforcars325i View Post
Agree....... which is why I'm concerned with the direction BMW is taking regarding maintenance. Lifetime fluids, no dipsticks, etc.......They're trending more and more toward the MB crowd who wants it ALL done for them.

Cars for the 'mindless' owner!
Couldn't have said it better myself. I miss my dipstick.
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  #29  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petee1997 View Post
The question remains: Why do they sell more E class than 5 series? Is it because a Benz is Benz is a Benz. There is simply NOTHING like it.....
Very smart. Actually toyota sells more camry than E class so they are better. Toyota is Toyota. There is NOTHING like it...!
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  #30  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golforcars325i View Post
Agree....... which is why I'm concerned with the direction BMW is taking regarding maintenance. Lifetime fluids, no dipsticks, etc.......They're trending more and more toward the MB crowd who wants it ALL done for them.

Cars for the 'mindless' owner!
Actually the one thing that I do find old school and great about Mercs is that yes there is a spare tire, and yes there is a dipstick. Really good ones too. The end is orange plastic so you can get a really good reading off of it. Not that the owners use them. My kingdom for a dipstick!
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  #31  
Old 08-12-2010, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Babken View Post
I can't believe what I read in recent comparisons. The E-Class outperforms and outhandles the new 5 Series....
Someone must be on drugs. The F10 is better than the obsolete E-Class in every respect. I drove both back to back and the E-Class is inferior to the F10 in every respect.
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  #32  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kontir View Post
Very smart. Actually toyota sells more camry than E class so they are better. Toyota is Toyota. There is NOTHING like it...!
And a bankrupt GM sells more chevy's. What's your point? Compare apples with apples in the same price point.
Keep in mind I have never said that MB built a better car simply a more popular car that is better looking. And better body style is subjective and impossible to argue.
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  #33  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:58 AM
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Are you on drugs? The F10 is better than the obsolete E-Class in every respect. I drove both back to back and the E-Class is inferior to the F10 in every respect.
Whoa, there fella. He was stating what he had read, not his opinion.
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Whoa, there fella. He was stating what he had read, not his opinion.
Thank you for pointing that out to me. I modified my post.
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  #35  
Old 08-12-2010, 10:44 AM
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Another plus for MBUSA is that they imported the E wagons, rather than coming up with a GT niche. Although the 5 series isn't a bad car per se.
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  #36  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petee1997 View Post
And better body style is subjective and impossible to argue.
Not impossible to argue, just impossible to win the argument! I'd argue with you all day long!
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  #37  
Old 08-12-2010, 01:12 PM
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Another plus for MBUSA is that they imported the E wagons, rather than coming up with a GT niche. Although the 5 series isn't a bad car per se.
I'm not saying all Mercedes owners are pedestrian, but wagons are viewed in the U.S. as rather pedestrian (whether rightly or wrongly) and Mercedes has always had a fairly significant wagon following; no doubt large than BMW's.
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  #38  
Old 08-12-2010, 02:11 PM
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A few comments

I've had two BMW 3-series, an '05 330i and my current '08 335i (both 6MT). Previously I had an '02 C-Class 6MT. I love the BMW's, but I always thought I had aspirations to drive an E class if the time came I could swing the financing. Well, that time has come. I hadn't yet driven the new 5-series, so I went and test drove an E350. Nice car overall, with the MB "cachet", but seriously underpowered for that league of car, IMO. Of course I didn't expect it to match my 335i for performance, but the power was barely adequate for merging onto the highway.

OK, then I drove the F10 535i. First turn out of the dealer's lot and I couldn't stop smiling -- and this was an automatic. No comparison whatsoever to the MB -- perhaps the new 528i is closer in performance to the E350. My new 535i has just completed production and is headed for the port -- can't wait for it to arrive. MB is very nice, but they seriously need to boost the power on the "entry" model.

OK, another comment. Why are so many of you so reluctant to simply order the car you want? Instead of complaining that you can't find a leather MB just order the thing and wait 5-6 weeks. Rather than looking and looking for how many weeks for the one you want, the one YOU DO want will be here. I ordered my 535i on 7/24, it was built by 8/9 and it will probably arrive in 3, 4 weeks max. When I spend this much money, I'll order it the way I want it.
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  #39  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
OK, another comment. Why are so many of you so reluctant to simply order the car you want? Instead of complaining that you can't find a leather MB just order the thing and wait 5-6 weeks.
It's not really the whole ordering the car process that I'm reticent about. The leather situation is symbolic of a greater cancer that has infected MB products (especially the C and E class). They know they have the preeminent brand cache in the entire market. Yes, we all know Aston Martins and Ferrari's and Porsche's are more expensive/exclusive. But if you are talking about cars that the average person (not gear heads and enthusiasts like us) has aspirational dreams to attain, it's gotta be a Mercedes. It's synonymous with, wealth,status, and upper class living. But what they've seem to have done over in Stuttgart is focus more on how they can cut costs, make money and project this image without actually delivering on the engineering,performance and craftsmanship that many of us have come to expect and demand. They're resting on the brand image and marketing to sell a product that is by most measures average.
Since we're talking about the E class:
E350, No direct injection, no turbo, still using McPherson strut set up in the front, acceleration and braking numbers that are nearly identical to Camry/Accord/Maxima (all FWD). Have to special order leather, trunk lid unfinished with speakers and wires hanging out. This for a Starting price of 50k, which easily becomes 60k moderately equipped.
Remember their slogan is "THE BEST OR NOTHING."
Really?
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TJPark01 View Post
Everyone is in agreement that Bimmers are more driver oriented. If you are a driving enthusiast you will probably lean towards BMW's. For a lot of people Benz's are perfect. Not as soft as Lexus but not as stiff as Bimmers. MB are terrific touring cars with great amounts of luxury and refinement. I have owned several in my lifetime, and as all owners will tell you. There is a certain smell that every MB has, I think it has something to do with the leather. You know what, the E350 Premium 2 package I drove didn't have that smell, the cars transmission was harsh, and it was pretty loud when you started pushing it (not good loud like V8 throaty rumble, bad loud like shaking a tin can full of marbles).

Me: How can I get leather in this car?
CA: You can either custom order one from Sindelfingen,step up to a E550 or get the coupe.
Me: I can't get a E350 sedan with leather, even on a Premium 2 package?
CA: No, they don't come that way, but MBTex is very good, you can't even tell.
Me: I don't put ketchup on sushi, and I don't buy Benzos with vinyl seats.
Actually Benz's are a lot softer than Lexus. They switched places in the last generation. In fact I can't think of a luxury car with a softer ride and less precise handling than a Benz (not unless you count Lincoln as a luxury brand).
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  #41  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:36 PM
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The reason E-Class may outsell BMW is because it is cheaper (around 5-7k cheaper) and they get a lot of fleet sales (Hertz, car services, etc.) because they are prepared to discount to fleets.
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  #42  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:59 PM
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Speaking of Porsche...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJPark01 View Post
It's not really the whole ordering the car process that I'm reticent about. The leather situation is symbolic of a greater cancer that has infected MB products (especially the C and E class). They know they have the preeminent brand cache in the entire market. Yes, we all know Aston Martins and Ferrari's and Porsche's are more expensive/exclusive. But if you are talking about cars that the average person (not gear heads and enthusiasts like us) has aspirational dreams to attain, it's gotta be a Mercedes. It's synonymous with, wealth,status, and upper class living. But what they've seem to have done over in Stuttgart is focus more on how they can cut costs, make money and project this image without actually delivering on the engineering,performance and craftsmanship that many of us have come to expect and demand. They're resting on the brand image and marketing to sell a product that is by most measures average.
I was actually looking at Boxsters before realizing I'm too hooked on "regular" cars, feeling I'm in my so-called 2nd mid-life crisis . Looked seriously for a while and drove a couple new ones. BTW, you'll rarely if ever see a Porsche on a dealer lot with leather -- it's vinyl all the way, except Panamera.
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  #43  
Old 08-13-2010, 11:08 AM
gekisai29 gekisai29 is offline
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mb tex in our e350 is really good but its still not leasther. just an example of the star not giving as good value as others
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  #44  
Old 08-13-2010, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gekisai29 View Post
mb tex in our e350 is really good but its still not leasther. just an example of the star not giving as good value as others
I have owned a 560SL and a CL550. I think the MB models on the higher end are exceptional, without compromise cars. (of course they are in the 100+ range). The MB cars within reach of most consumers have an extraordinary amount of short cutting going on. I think people see the "Star" and get enamored with the idea of owning a MB, without peeling the layers and looking at what's really underneath.
Yes MBTex is good, it's probably a better fake leather than BMW leatherette, but nothing like the real thing. In the same way:
Tofukey, not better than Turkey
Soymilk, not better than cows milk
Spam, not better than Black Forest Ham
Facebook friends, not better than real friend.
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  #45  
Old 08-13-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
someone must be on drugs. The f10 is better than the obsolete e-class in every respect. I drove both back to back and the e-class is inferior to the f10 in every respect.
+1
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  #46  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
I was actually looking at Boxsters before realizing I'm too hooked on "regular" cars, feeling I'm in my so-called 2nd mid-life crisis . Looked seriously for a while and drove a couple new ones. BTW, you'll rarely if ever see a Porsche on a dealer lot with leather -- it's vinyl all the way, except Panamera.
Sorry, but almost ALL Porsches in the US come with leather standard. What may be vinil is the dashboard, which for most of the high-end models is leather too.
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  #47  
Old 08-13-2010, 08:40 PM
porksoda porksoda is offline
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after reading few comments here and there i thought i would share my experience with f10 and the e550. A current bm owner i am biased but wait...

After bm invited me to their f10 launch party and saw the car inside out i was not blown away... from angles it looks like a g35... i had to wait for my test drive on the car. I test drove the car and i was beyond disappointed. The car handled and felt like a lexus, huge disconnect from the road and it just felt like something a grandfather would drive.

Having hugely disappointed i went to the benz and a salesperson was more than eager to get me in the e550. As soon as i saw the e550 the front of it was very aggressive and both me and my better half liked it. The salesman drove the e550 on few bendy roads driving and pushing the car very hard, and then it was my turn i drove the car well enough and it put a smile on my face. I got the pricing and packages and options and i thought wow i guess my next car is not going to be a bm.

I came home and read up online and found i was not the only one hugely disappointed with the f10... as i read more i found a few folks had mentioned to test drive one with sports and dhp packages so armed with this info i went back to the dealership and asked them which packages the vehicles had and if i could test drive the 550 with dhp / sports.

At this point the e550 was the primary for me and at this point this was a confirmation drive look around the car before i decide on the e550.

The salesperson started the car and immediately i heard the v8 on the 550 which was not as audible before... i drove the car and i could not believe it i was in sports+ and this car drove exactly how i was expecting the f10 to drive and the engine was louder turns were cornered well and overall it was good.

My thoughts on the e550 was it is a very forgiving car and is very easy to drive. The f10 you have to be careful a bit as it will start to give out and let you know when you are hitting the limit.

Also i must disagree with a few of you the e550's interior was horrible compared to the f10. Neither myself or my better half liked the interior of the e550. We went in and out of the demo vehicle and also the showroom model.

For me the seats were ok on the e550.. sat nav screen was small their version of idrive was not very intuitive (ironically enough the older idrive for me was very easy to use) and overall everything seemed a bit lower quality.

The front of the e550 is fantastic i will admit, esp with amg package the whole car i will admit looks a lot more aggressive than the f10.

f10 wins for me hands down for interior... i still have to back to back with the e550 and 550 but i think this time i will probably pick the bm for my preference as a drivers car.
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  #48  
Old 08-13-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_c View Post
Sorry, but almost ALL Porsches in the US come with leather standard. What may be vinil is the dashboard, which for most of the high-end models is leather too.
No, sorry. Most US Porsches have only partial leather standard -- only the central areas on the seats are leather. Full leather is about $2300-$3650 depending on the model, which includes full leather seats, door panels, dashboard. Additional leather pieces are extra beyond that. Go to www.porsche.com/usa check the build-your-own configurator.
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  #49  
Old 08-14-2010, 07:02 AM
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This segment has become a lot more competitive in the last 12 years, and my sense is that most of the entrants have gone after BMW (sporty) versus after Mercedes (old mans ride)

12 years ago you had the 5er, e-class and Lexus gs. That was it. Bmws were the only performance option and so the e39 was dominant.

The attackers have become increasingly sport oriented:
Audi A6
Jaguar XF
infiniti M
Benz CLS
And Lexus has shifted more towards sporty as well with low profile tires, active suspensions, run flat tires.

The only entrant that really delivers a soft ride is Hyundai and they are not really a credible player.

So I think the attackers have taken share more from BMW than Benz.

Despite all his competition, BMWs market share is very impressive considering they are by some margin the most expensive car in the segment.
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  #50  
Old 08-14-2010, 08:47 AM
lindros2 lindros2 is offline
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As a new (first-time) BMW owner, I would have purchased an A6 if it was next year (2012 model year).

Interior won me over.

Car is soft - there is no question. Electric steering is Lexus-like.

But honestly for me this isn't all bad.
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