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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 05-14-2016, 09:45 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Parasitic Draw Yayyyyy! Much Fun!



Hey guys, need some help. 2004 545i E60

I've been having issues with my car draining overnight. Brand new AGM battery - IBS disconnected - I hooked up a multimeter in series with the battery and confirmed that I have a draw of roughly 8 amps. I went through and pulled each fuse one by one to isolate the issue.

Unfortunately there were 4 different fuses and 1 relay that caused the draw to drop!

Fuse #57 in trunk - Current Monitoring (how is this possible!? I have IBS disconnected!)(Drawing 2amps)

"Terminal 30 g relay" (trunk) directly left of fuse #57 was drawing a few amps. (drawing 3amps)

***The above two items are located directly next to each other***

Fuse #29 in glove box - Diagnosis (about 1 amp)

Fuse #15 - Ignition/start electronics (again, scratching my head.... car is off, no key in ignition) (drawing about 1 amps)

Fuse #11 - central locking system (i assumed this was from the door being open while we were in glovebox) (a few amps)


I'm hoping you guys can help point me in the right direction... This is killing me as I just bought this car and haven't even been able to drive it. Seems to me like this is way too many systems drawing power for a normal issue. I'm thinking the relay might be the overlying issue if the car isn't going to sleep or something, maybe leaving 4 or so systems on, but have no idea. Plus when I pull JUST the relay out, there is STILL a 5 amp draw...

Also really confused why the "current monitoring" system is causing a draw when I have IBS disconnected.

Thanks everyone,

-Josh

Last edited by GreenMTNE60; 05-14-2016 at 09:49 AM. Reason: .
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2016, 12:03 PM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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***Update***

I figured out how to trick the system to thinking the door was shut and thus have narrowed it down to the following systems:

1) Fuse #57 in trunk - Current Monitoring (2.5amps)
2) Terminal 30g relay (3.5amps)
3) Fuse #29 in glove box -Diagnostics (2 amps)

Also, I took a perfectly working terminal 30g relay from my brother's BMW that was the same exact part # and hooked it up and it still had that same draw...

Last edited by GreenMTNE60; 05-14-2016 at 12:04 PM. Reason: .
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2016, 01:49 PM
HAWKG HAWKG is offline
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If you get the answer, please share. I've had the same issue since this past October. Please help!
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  #4  
Old 05-15-2016, 04:16 AM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Hoping you mean milliamps -- 8 amps would be setting something on fire.

Anyway, the parasitic draw is usually something a good indy should check out. It can be a bitch to find.

One thing you need to note is that draw continues until the system sleeps, which can take some time for various items. If you're checking without waiting, you may be seeing normal function. Takes up to 60 min for everything to sleep, though most are asleep in 30. INPA has a "go to sleep" selection for storage mode that puts it all in sleep mode at once.

Power management system doc attached. Read the section on the sleep process. pages 14-18, but also other places.
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File Type: pdf 03_Power Management.pdf (1.07 MB, 51 views)
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2016, 06:50 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Hoping you mean milliamps -- 8 amps would be setting something on fire.

Anyway, the parasitic draw is usually something a good indy should check out. It can be a bitch to find.

One thing you need to note is that draw continues until the system sleeps, which can take some time for various items. If you're checking without waiting, you may be seeing normal function. Takes up to 60 min for everything to sleep, though most are asleep in 30. INPA has a "go to sleep" selection for storage mode that puts it all in sleep mode at once.

Power management system doc attached. Read the section on the sleep process. pages 14-18, but also other places.
Ya I honeslty don't know, milliamps/amps/volts/dc/ac its all very confusing to me as I am not an electrician and have little/no electrical background. I've just been watching videos and following the same process. Multimeter is set to the 10A setting and it shows a draw of 8.00 ish.

Looks like this will have to go to the INDY... least I've narrowed it down for him. I've waited and waited for it to "go to sleep" put the key as far away as possible, etc.... etc.. something is staying on.

Thanks for you input.
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:56 AM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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The important thing when measuring the current is to ensure that the car has gone to sleep. The LED right next to the gear shift will stay illuminated until the car is asleep. Pulling certain fuses and reinserting them will wake the car also. Chances are if the car stays awake all of the computers are what is draining the battery. If the car actually goes to sleep but still drains then you have to dig deeper. Unless you are positive the car is asleep you can't make accurate measurements or assessments.

Having an Indy who can read and diagnose codes will certainly help as it is likely there are faults stored.

I know the car was a recent purchase so make sure you check for any aftermarket or additional equipment (radar detectors, bluetooth modules, audio, etc) as if a device was improperly wired it may continue to be pulling power even after the car has gone to sleep. This includes things plugged into cigarette lighters. On BMW service bulletin mentions a cigarette lighter device sending power back through the cigarette lighter socket and keeping a car awake. One of the fuses you mention #29 powers the OBDII port and this is a common point for stereo technicians to slave power from.

Ignore the IBS and 30g relay. The IBS is only involved if it is bad and repeatedly wakes the car up. Because it is disconnected you know that's not the case. However, having it disconnected will not prevent other parasitic drains.

The 30g relay is simply a pass-through point for a number of fuses in the front electrical box that it controls. The relay is controlled by the CAS and allows the CAS to cut off power to multiple fuses in the front electrical panel in one fast action. It's purpose is to allow the electrical system to shed load quickly. It could be that the offending drain is powered by a fuse in the group of fuses controlled by the 30g relay, and pulling it is the same as pulling the offending fuse, and may be a good clue to a diagnosis. Somewhere I have a list of fuses controlled by the 30g relay but couldn't find it on short notice.

Another interesting fuse you note is #57 which powers the MPM or micro power module. It is located in the trunk in the bottom of the wheel well where the spare tire is stored. Any liquid spilled in the trunk will find its way to the bottom of the well and can do damage to the MPM. Pull out your spare and you will find an engineered foam tray underneath it which holds electronics including the MPM which is white in color. Examine the tray as well as the well under the tray for any liquid residue and see if you see any corrosion around wires or connections. The MPM is integral to the electrical system control and if damaged can cause weird things to happen.

Fuse #11 is the basic body module power and could be many things. One item seen in the past on early E60s is failure of the steering column switch module which can keep the car awake.

Fuse #15 powers the CAS, which is always energized when the car is awake as it controls the security and decides whether all requirements have been met to allow the starter to be energized. If the car stays awake or is awakened later the CAS will get powered.

Hope this helps. I would agree that unless you find an aftermarket device drawing power or see damage to the MPM the quickest way to get to a solution is to get a knowledgeable Indy involved who can read and understand codes.

In the mean time if you are delayed getting to the Indy or if he can't immediately diagnose the problem (some parasitic drains can take days of diagnosis, even by dealers) you might want to invest in a quick disconnect switch that you can attach to the negative battery cable so that all you have to do is pop your trunk lid and flip a switch (leave the side panel covering the battery loose in the trunk so you don't have to remove it each time). This will save wear and tear on you battery terminal clamp which is easy to strip.

http://www.amazon.com/Lead-Quick-Dis.../dp/B005278RJM



Good luck.
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  #7  
Old 05-15-2016, 12:57 PM
HAWKG HAWKG is offline
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Thank you for your input @bimmerfan52. Greatly appreciated!
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  #8  
Old 05-15-2016, 05:58 PM
NiagaraFallsM5 NiagaraFallsM5 is offline
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power draw at sleep

I had that it turned out to be my mirror the heater would come on for no reason had to replace.
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2016, 04:24 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan52 View Post
The important thing when measuring the current is to ensure that the car has gone to sleep. The LED right next to the gear shift will stay illuminated until the car is asleep. Pulling certain fuses and reinserting them will wake the car also. Chances are if the car stays awake all of the computers are what is draining the battery. If the car actually goes to sleep but still drains then you have to dig deeper. Unless you are positive the car is asleep you can't make accurate measurements or assessments.

Having an Indy who can read and diagnose codes will certainly help as it is likely there are faults stored.

I know the car was a recent purchase so make sure you check for any aftermarket or additional equipment (radar detectors, bluetooth modules, audio, etc) as if a device was improperly wired it may continue to be pulling power even after the car has gone to sleep. This includes things plugged into cigarette lighters. On BMW service bulletin mentions a cigarette lighter device sending power back through the cigarette lighter socket and keeping a car awake. One of the fuses you mention #29 powers the OBDII port and this is a common point for stereo technicians to slave power from.

Ignore the IBS and 30g relay. The IBS is only involved if it is bad and repeatedly wakes the car up. Because it is disconnected you know that's not the case. However, having it disconnected will not prevent other parasitic drains.

The 30g relay is simply a pass-through point for a number of fuses in the front electrical box that it controls. The relay is controlled by the CAS and allows the CAS to cut off power to multiple fuses in the front electrical panel in one fast action. It's purpose is to allow the electrical system to shed load quickly. It could be that the offending drain is powered by a fuse in the group of fuses controlled by the 30g relay, and pulling it is the same as pulling the offending fuse, and may be a good clue to a diagnosis. Somewhere I have a list of fuses controlled by the 30g relay but couldn't find it on short notice.

Another interesting fuse you note is #57 which powers the MPM or micro power module. It is located in the trunk in the bottom of the wheel well where the spare tire is stored. Any liquid spilled in the trunk will find its way to the bottom of the well and can do damage to the MPM. Pull out your spare and you will find an engineered foam tray underneath it which holds electronics including the MPM which is white in color. Examine the tray as well as the well under the tray for any liquid residue and see if you see any corrosion around wires or connections. The MPM is integral to the electrical system control and if damaged can cause weird things to happen.

Fuse #11 is the basic body module power and could be many things. One item seen in the past on early E60s is failure of the steering column switch module which can keep the car awake.

Fuse #15 powers the CAS, which is always energized when the car is awake as it controls the security and decides whether all requirements have been met to allow the starter to be energized. If the car stays awake or is awakened later the CAS will get powered.

Hope this helps. I would agree that unless you find an aftermarket device drawing power or see damage to the MPM the quickest way to get to a solution is to get a knowledgeable Indy involved who can read and understand codes.

In the mean time if you are delayed getting to the Indy or if he can't immediately diagnose the problem (some parasitic drains can take days of diagnosis, even by dealers) you might want to invest in a quick disconnect switch that you can attach to the negative battery cable so that all you have to do is pop your trunk lid and flip a switch (leave the side panel covering the battery loose in the trunk so you don't have to remove it each time). This will save wear and tear on you battery terminal clamp which is easy to strip.

http://www.amazon.com/Lead-Quick-Dis.../dp/B005278RJM



Good luck.
Bimmerfan52,

Thank you so much for your help and detailed analysis.

I'm going to rebuttal with a couple of things and bounce some ideas off you and others:

First, is the issue assumption that fuse #15 deals with with CAS; My car (as far as I can tell) does NOT have CAS. The handles aren't grooved, it is not push button start, and my keys are the diamond shaped ones. Again this is a 2004 545i 6 speed, sport package. (No cold weather package, heated seats, etc.)

My fuse diagram shows #15 to be "Ignition/start electronics"

Also, once I tricked the door into thinking it was shut, that draw and the draw from fuse #11 "Central Locking System" went away. You mentioned fuse #11 was "basic body module power" which seems to be a contradiction to my fuse diagram, maybe I'm not using the right one...???

(See below attachments as to what I'm referencing)

Secondly,

My car is 6 speed so there is no "LED right next to the gear shift (that) will stay illuminated until the car is asleep" I really can't tell if the car ever goes to sleep, but my thought is that it isn't. Even after being off for 6 hours with the battery disconnected last night, the draw immediately showed 8 amps.

Thirdly,

I have a OBD11 bluetooth device, (cheap $25 ebay one with Torque app) that reads codes but when I run the program it shows no codes, stored codes, historic codes, ect. Also, my car doesn't have any errors on the display other than active steering every time I disconnect battery.

Lastly,

There are NO aftermarket speakers, stereos, radar detectors, etc... this is pretty much stock...I will def check out the MPM though, thanks for that suggestion. I'm going to bring it to an Indy this week and see what he thinks...

I can already hear the cash register ringing.

Thanks Bimmerfan52 for your input! Let me know what you think, and please anyone else feel free to chime in. I'm all ears.

-Josh
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  #10  
Old 05-16-2016, 05:36 AM
twh twh is offline
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Might want to buy Carly for BMW and it will probably pair with your OBD dongle. It will find more codes than a generic OBD app will.
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:58 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twh View Post
Might want to buy Carly for BMW and it will probably pair with your OBD dongle. It will find more codes than a generic OBD app will.
I'll try it out on the free app first to see if it works with my OBDII dongle, from the sounds of it though you need the Carly OBD11 connector for this to work.
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2016, 06:40 AM
l1tech l1tech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMTNE60 View Post
Bimmerfan52,

:

First, is the issue assumption that fuse #15 deals with with CAS; My car (as far as I can tell) does NOT have CAS.
CAS is the Car Access System, not to be confused with Comfort Access. How exactly are you hooking up the meter to read the current draw? The car must think that all the doors are closed and the key is not in the ignition for it to go into sleep mode which as someone has said can take up to an hour. The multimeter must be connected between the battery cable and battery post when the car goes to sleep to get a reading because once you disconnect the battery and then put the meter inline to read the amp draw the car will wake back up.
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:44 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1tech View Post
CAS is the Car Access System, not to be confused with Comfort Access. How exactly are you hooking up the meter to read the current draw? The car must think that all the doors are closed and the key is not in the ignition for it to go into sleep mode which as someone has said can take up to an hour. The multimeter must be connected between the battery cable and battery post when the car goes to sleep to get a reading because once you disconnect the battery and then put the meter inline to read the amp draw the car will wake back up.
I am hooking one lead to the post and one lead to the battery cable (negative).

I am hooking the multi meter up after a half hour or longer but as you mentioned, it instantly wakes up the car as soon as the meter is inline.

I don't understand how I am supposed to hook up the meter inline without it waking back up...
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2016, 07:15 AM
l1tech l1tech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMTNE60 View Post
I am hooking one lead to the post and one lead to the battery cable (negative).

I..
There is your problem. You must disconnect the battery negative cable and hook up the meter with one of the leads going to the cable and the other going to the battery post. The problem with doing it this way is that the current usually spikes during the initial wake up process and will blow the fuse in the meter. To avoid this you must use a shunt. This is what makes it hard for the average diyer to do parasitic draw testing on a BMW.
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Old 05-16-2016, 07:21 AM
twh twh is offline
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Forget trying to use the multimeter inline...you need an amp clamp -- totally passive.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2016, 07:21 AM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1tech View Post
There is your problem. You must disconnect the battery negative cable and hook up the meter with one of the leads going to the cable and the other going to the battery post. The problem with doing it this way is that the current usually spikes during the initial wake up process and will blow the fuse in the meter. To avoid this you must use a shunt. This is what makes it hard for the average diyer to do parasitic draw testing on a BMW.
Yes I DO disconnect the negative terminal first. Then one wire goes to the negative post, one wire to negative cable. This doesn't effect the meter at all. Reads 8amps every time. Then that reading drops as soon as I disconnect Fuse #57, #29, and the "terminal 30g relay". But yes, you are correct when i do connect the meter inline the system seems to wake up again.

Sounds like I should connect the meter in line then wait for it to go to sleep to get a reading vs letting it go to sleep then connecting the meter to it which wakes it back up.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:03 AM
Josh28 Josh28 is offline
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Hi Guys. Bit new to this, sorry if it's wrong thread. Any help would be appreciated.

I am experiencing the similar problems.
I have a 530d 54. Had the car for 3 years. But past few months been getting intermittent battery drain.. Not been able to connect to Bluetooth..idrive flickers through the sources (example video below) control wheel spins feel freely

I've done the following..

Tried different battery.. Car still failed at times whilst my batt doing fine in another car

Disconnected my entire ccc for a while.. Car still failed to start intermittently..

Auto lec 1.. Had it for 3 days.. Came back with poss air bag module failure preventing car from going to sleep.. Cost of repair 400-600

2nd auto lec specialist had it for nearly two weeks.. 135 later only came back With a "possible" ccc issue preventing car going to sleep

My BT unit has been totally disconnect... Still having the batt drain and faild start

Any suggestions
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:29 PM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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check IBS cable^
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:33 PM
GreenMTNE60 GreenMTNE60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twh View Post
Forget trying to use the multimeter inline...you need an amp clamp -- totally passive.
Agreed. But my method also seems to work as well as far as confirming a draw. Ive popped a fuse here and there but it can handle the load and read the draw in 10A mode...

My question now is: am I "waking it up" by hooking a meter inline to read the draw? Is there a way to keep it sleeping and then check the draw? It certainly seems to come alive as soon as I connect the multimeter...

Bout to crash this into a tree....Appointment @ Indy Thursday...
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:25 PM
twh twh is offline
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When you take fuse out and put the meter inline, you are messing with the car and it could be waking certain parts. Amp clamp is totally passive.
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:57 PM
l1tech l1tech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twh View Post
Forget trying to use the multimeter inline...you need an amp clamp -- totally passive.
AN amp clamp would work but you need an amp clamp that is capable of reading as low as .002 milliamps. These clamps are expensive and take a bit of using to get used to them. The preferred way is to go inline with a meter.
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:58 PM
l1tech l1tech is offline
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Originally Posted by GreenMTNE60 View Post
Is there a way to keep it sleeping and then check the draw? It certainly seems to come alive as soon as I connect the multimeter...

Bout to crash this into a tree....Appointment @ Indy Thursday...
Hook the meter up, walk away from the car for an hour and then come back and read the meter.
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Old 05-16-2016, 07:50 PM
twh twh is offline
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You don't need to measure down to .002 milliamp - that's 2 microamps and that's way too low to worry about.

You need one that does DC as well as AC and with a low range and suitable for getting to parasitic draws. Something like this will work:
http://www.amazon.com/GTC-CM100-Curr...iglink20245-20
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  #24  
Old 05-16-2016, 08:17 PM
bimmerfan52 bimmerfan52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1tech View Post
AN amp clamp would work but you need an amp clamp that is capable of reading as low as .002 milliamps. These clamps are expensive and take a bit of using to get used to them. The preferred way is to go inline with a meter.
I think you meant accuracy of 2 milliamps or .002 amps. For the purposes of diagnosing at sleep parasitic current, a low current clamp probe that would fit most DMMs with an accuracy of of 10 milliamps DC (as low as $120) would be accurate enough to diagnose a problem.

But I agree 100% that without at least a basic knowledge of the car's electrical system such a tool would be wasted.

One technique for testing push-in fuses without having to physically remove them is to make a test fuse by cutting the center conductor from the fuse and then soldering two leads onto the legs of the fuse. The fuse can then be inserted and current can be measured in series through the leads with a multimeter or the leads can quickly be connected and disconnected to apply and remove power. However, remember to use an appropriate value in-line fuse in the circuit for the location you are testing so in case of over-current you don't burn up a very expensive computer. Randomly connecting and disconnecting wires and probes is a sure way to end up spending a lot of money.
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  #25  
Old 05-16-2016, 11:25 PM
Josh28 Josh28 is offline
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Sorry, I didn't mention that I also had the ibs disconnected for a while and used the car regularly. Car still failed intermittently. With the ibs connected it reduces blowers and powers off my cd changer. Changer reloads and set back to cd1 upon engine start.

What's the best way/if any to check and isolate the ibs
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