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  #1  
Old 12-15-2003, 01:36 PM
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KU Ned KU Ned is offline
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ZHP Marketing issues

Are there a couple of people out there that want to coordinate our research efforts regarding the ZHP marketing information? I have sent Team Z4 my VIN information as he requested in the Roundel thread so he can do some detailed research of specific parts.

If BMW NA misrepresented the ZHP I believe they will be quick to try to remedy the situation once it is brought to their attention. M-B was quick to offer my dad any option available on the car when he notified them that his C32 AMG did not have the exact seats that were listed in the marketing information. Mazda has offered refunds and to repurchase the RX-8 and Miata after misrepresenting hp.

I believe we have a claim against BMW NA if in fact the modifications to the stock 330i that were represented in press releases and marketing materials are not as represented.

Who wants to run with the research?
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2003, 01:42 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Hack, Kaz and Vince did an extensive research on the ZHP package, IIRC.
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2003, 01:54 PM
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KU Ned KU Ned is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
Hack, Kaz and Vince did an extensive research on the ZHP package, IIRC.
Their research is a good start. We need to compile the information that is reported in other posts and do a quick review of the law to determine what, if any laws have been violated and put together a letter to BMW NA. I don't have the technical expertise to do this but many on this board do.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:00 PM
AF AF is offline
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Ned,

What makes you question this ? Just curious because I don't recall reading anything on the board that says the ZHP package isn't what it should be ... do you have any threads you can point me to so I can catch up on this ?
  #5  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AF330i
Ned,

What makes you question this ? Just curious because I don't recall reading anything on the board that says the ZHP package isn't what it should be ... do you have any threads you can point me to so I can catch up on this ?

Where on earth have you been the last couple of weeks? If I remember correctly, you've commented in a couple of the marketing package threads? (are you being sarcastic?)

KU Ned, let me know what I can do to help. I'm pretty isolated as far as being near other 'fest members. But I'll lend a hand wherever I can.
  #6  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:10 PM
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I'm in, I want to get to the bottom of this issue. Hack & Co.s exam contradicts just about everything in regards to the marketing material. Love my car, however, if there are no differences in the suspension components between the standard sport suspension and that of the zhp, than there is some serious misrepresentation here.
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:20 PM
philippek philippek is offline
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If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:

BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had different shock absorbers: Front, 50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound; Rear, 20% firmer in jounce, 8% softer in rebound. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had larger diameter anit-roll bars by .5 mm front and rear. I believe Hack's physical exam of a ZHP's bars showed the cars had 23mm and 18mm front and rear bars, identical to the 330 sport package.
  #8  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippek
If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:

BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.
Small correction. We didn't have a way of verifying any changes in the springing, as there are only paint stripes on the springs, not part #s.
  #9  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:31 PM
ff ff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Has anyone's ZHP become less enjoyable or handle worse since our information came out?

Mine definitely has become much less enjoyable. Well, I can't figure out if it's because of what I now know, or because the streets are lined with snow and ice...

Hack, the problem isn't that we didn't get what we expected to get. The problem is that we paid a LOT more money for a bunch of stuff we didn't get.

I can take my car in to Sears and have them dial in some negative camber for $39.99 (plus tax. hazardous waste disposal fees may be extra). That's a lot less than the $2300 that BMW charged me for the same service last spring. Hell, it's more than just $2300. What about the huge hit I took in vehicle value the second I drove off the lot.

I was hoping for M3 handling, at a 330i price. I didn't get what I was hoping for.

edit: I should mention, that ever since I put on my set of 16" winter wheels, this car has more body roll than a mo-fo.

Last edited by ff; 12-15-2003 at 02:38 PM.
  #10  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:42 PM
AF AF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff
Where on earth have you been the last couple of weeks? If I remember correctly, you've commented in a couple of the marketing package threads? (are you being sarcastic?)

I really didn't know there was an issue . . . I'll check out the threads later tonight . . . lately I visit the board quickly, make a comment, then sign off.

Unfortunately my dad has been very sick so it's been a crazy time (almost lost him but thank g-d he made it).
  #11  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:42 PM
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bavarian19 bavarian19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippek
If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:

BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had different shock absorbers: Front, 50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound; Rear, 20% firmer in jounce, 8% softer in rebound. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had larger diameter anit-roll bars by .5 mm front and rear. I believe Hack's physical exam of a ZHP's bars showed the cars had 23mm and 18mm front and rear bars, identical to the 330 sport package.

Could it be that these numbers are a comparison to the non-sport packaged e46's? I remember seeing these numbers back when the ZHP was introduced, but have yet to ride an a ZHP... So my opinion for the most part is irrelevant.
  #12  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:46 PM
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bavarian19 bavarian19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AF330i
I really didn't know there was an issue . . . I'll check out the threads later tonight . . . lately I visit the board quickly, make a comment, then sign off.

Unfortunately my dad has been very sick so it's been a crazy time (almost lost him but thank g-d he made it).

Alan, hope all is ok with your father. Ill say a quick prayer for him.
  #13  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:47 PM
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ak330i ak330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajt819
Could it be that these numbers are a comparison to the non-sport packaged e46's? I remember seeing these numbers back when the ZHP was introduced, but have yet to ride an a ZHP... So my opinion for the most part is irrelevant.

all 2002+ e46 330 have sport suspension standard. i wouldn't make sense to compare a 330i ZHP with a 325i non-sp.
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  #14  
Old 12-15-2003, 02:58 PM
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bavarian19 bavarian19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak330i
all 2002+ e46 330 have sport suspension standard. i wouldn't make sense to compare a 330i ZHP with a 325i non-sp.

But if BMW was claiming these increases in performance, it may be over a non-sport package
  #15  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:17 PM
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Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.
  #16  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:31 PM
philippek philippek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff

I was hoping for M3 handling, at a 330i price. I didn't get what I was hoping for.
I think it's unrealistic to believe that $3900 option package (most of which consists of cosmetic upgrades) could make your 330 (or mine) handle like an M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK

From what I can recall, almost all the references to the "0.6" drop, better dampening rate...etc" all came from an early internal marketing brochure that's designated for salespersons to use.
I'm not sure that would make a difference in court, Hack. If a plaintiff can prove that a salesperson made the assertion that the ZHP had a "better" or even a "different" suspension, then that misrepresentation could be traced back to BMWNA, and their marketing materials.

There is precedent for BMWNA getting whacked by the courts for deceptive trade practices (Gore v. BMWNA), and if you wanna go for the money, then punitive damages are the way to go.

I don't think any attorney could make a believable argument that I (or any other ZHP owner) was materially damaged by not having an extra .5mm on my sway bars.

For the record, I love my car, and I doubt I'd accept any offer from BMW to buy it back.
  #17  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:32 PM
AF AF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajt819
Alan, hope all is ok with your father. Ill say a quick prayer for him.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate it . . . it's one of the hardest times I've been through.
  #18  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:33 PM
philippek philippek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artslinger
Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.
I think you're right Artslinger, and I think it's issues like this that make it so expensive for companies like BMW to do business in the U.S.
  #19  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:38 PM
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Plaz Plaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artslinger
Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.

Exactly. If it performs satisfactorily, and one enjoys it, what's the problem?

Some people are always just looking for a reason to think they were ripped off. Case in point: that Mojojojo character that was squeezing his festering spleen around here a few weeks ago over a couple of trim pieces.

Lighten up. Some people are just wrapped up a little too tightly.
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:43 PM
ff ff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippek
I think you're right Artslinger, and I think it's issues like this that make it so expensive for companies like BMW to do business in the U.S.

If you bought this Bic pen for 10% more than the standard Bic pen, under the assumption that the new Bic has a 50% stiffer shaft and 10% more ink, only to find out that the marketing people were comparing it to the Bic pen made in 1956, instead of the current 'lesser' Bic pen, how would you feel? Would you want your money back?

  #21  
Old 12-15-2003, 04:12 PM
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Artslinger Artslinger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff
If you bought this Bic pen for 10% more than the standard Bic pen, under the assumption that the new Bic has a 50% stiffer shaft and 10% more ink, only to find out that the marketing people were comparing it to the Bic pen made in 1956, instead of the current 'lesser' Bic pen, how would you feel? Would you want your money back?

Gee... with every consumer product these days being marketed extra strength, new and improved, and 20% more... I would not.
  #22  
Old 12-15-2003, 04:22 PM
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Plaz Plaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff
If you bought this Bic pen for 10% more than the standard Bic pen, under the assumption that the new Bic has a 50% stiffer shaft and 10% more ink, only to find out that the marketing people were comparing it to the Bic pen made in 1956, instead of the current 'lesser' Bic pen, how would you feel? Would you want your money back?


Given that every independent reviewer also said it was the best Bic ever, and outperformed previous Bics on all sorts of paper?

No, I would not want my money back.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2003, 04:30 PM
ff ff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaz
Given that every independent reviewer also said it was the best Bic ever, and outperformed previous Bics on all sorts of paper?

No, I would not want my money back.
That assumes that independent reviewers are never paid (in cash or other fine gifts) for offering rave reviews of the Bic pen.

You regular Bic owners should have a shop dial in some negative camber on your Bic pens. You too can have the best Bic ever, but at a 10% savings.
  #24  
Old 12-15-2003, 04:42 PM
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IndyMike IndyMike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff
That assumes that independent reviewers are never paid (in cash or other fine gifts) for offering rave reviews of the Bic pen.

You regular Bic owners should have a shop dial in some negative camber on your Bic pens. You too can have the best Bic ever, but at a 10% savings.
f squared, I just wish you would stop your Bic-kering.



J/k, of course!
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2003, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike
f squared, I just wish you would stop your Bic-kering.



J/k, of course!


 

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