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E60 M5 (2006 - 2010)

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  #101  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:02 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You make a very good point. The car is now at a BMW Certified Collision Repair Center, but from the looks of things the only thing that has happened is the removal of the body panels. The OP undoubtedly has USAA as his insurance provider and there is no doubt they would give him excellent service and pursue subrogation against the offending dealership.
I have personal experience with subrogation - there is about a 90 day wait for the insurance company to get the other insurance company to pay the deductible and it is refund back. At least in California, and I doubt that Texas doesn't allow subrogation....

So, what is causing all of the fuss? On the surface, it seems like a simple solution, yet so much drama.
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  #102  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:10 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
MNC4674, they are the same poster and I have proof b
:
Thanks for pointing this out. A choad by any other name...

So how many people remember the Jim Ellis VW fiasco. Someone complained about getting dicked around, it went on the web, and a moron at Jim Ellis filed a lawsuit.

THEN it went viral. The dealership was forced to deal with almost paralyzing publicity- calls not stop, mountains of emails.


This one has the possibility to do the same. Not because what some 20 year old moron did to the car- BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT AT THE DEALER mishandled the situation.

Their first instinct was to cover-up and lie, then to dissemble, then to shut down and disengage.

A

PS Just an FYI- when I drop a car off at a dealer I write "No permission to operate car off dealership premises" on the work order and make someone initial it. They need a test drive, I am happy to return and ride with them.
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  #103  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:19 PM
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hpowders hpowders is offline
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Jim Ellis is rated A+ by the BBB, by the way.
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  #104  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:36 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
So, what is causing all of the fuss? On the surface, it seems like a simple solution, yet so much drama.
Actually pretty simple explanation:

If you use your insurance, all you can 'get' is the repair of your car according to the terms of YOUR policy. (This usually excludes diminished value and other claims you might have if someone else was liable.)

If you feel there are larger losses, or you wish to make claims for other damages (fraud, diminished value, punitive) you must go after the dealership. If they have insurance that covers their liability, great- if not, no problem if they have money.

I'd leave my insurance out of it, and I'd not deal with the dealers insurance. I'd file a demand, then a lawsuit against the dealer, then get to discovery.

Then negotiate.

Last edited by ard; 09-05-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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  #105  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:45 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
Jim Ellis is rated A+ by the BBB, by the way.
So does the dealership in this instance. They also have a very good reputation in the area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. A choad by any other name...

So how many people remember the Jim Ellis VW fiasco. Someone complained about getting dicked around, it went on the web, and a moron at Jim Ellis filed a lawsuit.

THEN it went viral. The dealership was forced to deal with almost paralyzing publicity- calls not stop, mountains of emails.


This one has the possibility to do the same. Not because what some 20 year old moron did to the car- BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT AT THE DEALER mishandled the situation.

Their first instinct was to cover-up and lie, then to dissemble, then to shut down and disengage.

A

PS Just an FYI- when I drop a car off at a dealer I write "No permission to operate car off dealership premises" on the work order and make someone initial it. They need a test drive, I am happy to return and ride with them.
Again though, you are assuming the OP stated things exactly as they are and not while still in the "throes" of his frustration and anger, which is how it came off to me. The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

I think your instruction note is a good idea.
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  #106  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:49 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Actually pretty simple explanation:

If you use your insurance, all you can 'get' is the repair of your car according to the terms of YOUR policy. (This usually excludes diminished value and other claims you might have if someone else was liable.)

If you feel there are larger losses, or you wish to make claims for other damages (fraud, diminished value, punitive) you must go after the dealership. If they have insurance that covers their liability, great- if not, no problem if they have money.

I'd leave my insurance out of it, and I'd not deal with the dealers insurance. I'd file a demand, then a lawsuit against the dealer, then get to discovery.

Then negotiate.
I'm sure the OP has USAA as his insurer. Trust me he is in the best hands there are to be in. USAA doesn't cut corners and they have an excellent subrogation unit. For years USAA served only military officers (they now serve all service members and veterans) and they know how to serve highly demanding customers.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 09-05-2010 at 02:06 PM.
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  #107  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:56 PM
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Stevarino Stevarino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. A choad by any other name...

So how many people remember the Jim Ellis VW fiasco. Someone complained about getting dicked around, it went on the web, and a moron at Jim Ellis filed a lawsuit.

THEN it went viral. The dealership was forced to deal with almost paralyzing publicity- calls not stop, mountains of emails.


This one has the possibility to do the same. Not because what some 20 year old moron did to the car- BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT AT THE DEALER mishandled the situation.

Their first instinct was to cover-up and lie, then to dissemble, then to shut down and disengage.

A

PS Just an FYI- when I drop a car off at a dealer I write "No permission to operate car off dealership premises" on the work order and make someone initial it. They need a test drive, I am happy to return and ride with them.
Just curious-how do you know all this?

Are you actually involved or are you dealing with 2nd. 3rd. 4th. and 5th. hand information?

This whole tread should be nothing more than a routine insurance claim.
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  #108  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:58 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Actually pretty simple explanation:

If you use your insurance, all you can 'get' is the repair of your car according to the terms of YOUR policy. (This usually excludes diminished value and other claims you might have if someone else was liable.)

If you feel there are larger losses, or you wish to make claims for other damages (fraud, diminished value, punitive) you must go after the dealership. If they have insurance that covers their liability, great- if not, no problem if they have money.

I'd leave my insurance out of it, and I'd not deal with the dealers insurance. I'd file a demand, then a lawsuit against the dealer, then get to discovery.


Then negotiate.
Meh. There are 2 separate issues - damage to the car and everything else. The owner's insurance company should be able to get the car repaired without the owner releasing all other claims against the responsible party. I was involved in an accident where the car I was driving was rear-ended by a cab. The damage to my car was repaired with the expense being covered under the car's insurance policy. Separately, I pursued my claim for personal injury with an attorney and the Collision deductible was included in the final settlement document.
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  #109  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:59 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by Stevarino View Post
Just curious-how do you know all this?

Are you actually involved or are you dealing with 2nd. 3rd. 4th. and 5th. hand information?

This whole tread should be nothing more than a routine insurance claim.
+n on that sentiment.
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  #110  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:02 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Jim Ellis is rated A+ by the BBB, by the way.
It would seem that an A+ rating by BBB is no protection from stupidity at the dealer.
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  #111  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:07 PM
RBinDC RBinDC is offline
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Originally Posted by Stevarino View Post
Exactly. I second your motion.

This whole story was dysfunctional from the get-go. (Who cares if there are old skid marks in the neighboorhood?)

If my car gets damaged, I call my insurance company with the facts and let them fight it out with the other party. I don't know if the damage is $2,500 or $25,000 because I am not a claim adjuster. Let them figure it out and repair my car or send me a check so I can buy a new one.

Life goes on.
I think you are all missing an important point. Most likely the M5 will never be the same as it was before the accident. Any car that requires $30,000 to repair is not worth keeping. I think the guy should insist on the dealer selling him a new M5 at the dealer's cost plus providing a generous trade-in value on the damaged M5. Seems to me that would be a good deal for the dealer just to avoid the adverse publicity that he will incur if he fights this.
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  #112  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:08 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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So does the dealership in this instance. They also have a very good reputation in the area.


Again though, you are assuming the OP stated things exactly as they are and not while still in the "throes" of his frustration and anger, which is how it came off to me. The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

I think your instruction note is a good idea.
Interesting how people get all spun up thinking (no, make that knowing) they are going to 'crush' the other party. In this instance, since the owner was not in the car (no personal injury claim), the most they are going to get is the repair cost plus any diminished value if Texas allows claims for diminished value. And possibly some rental car reimbursement, if that is allowed under Texas law.

I hope the effort is worth the expense and aggravation. And their car is still not getting repaired from what I can tell.
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  #113  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:13 PM
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hpowders hpowders is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
So does the dealership in this instance. They also have a very good reputation in the area.




Again though, you are assuming the OP stated things exactly as they are and not while still in the "throes" of his frustration and anger, which is how it came off to me. The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

I think your instruction note is a good idea.
I believe Jim Ellis only had one BBB complaint against it over the last 36 months.
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  #114  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:14 PM
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hpowders hpowders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
So does the dealership in this instance. They also have a very good reputation in the area.




Again though, you are assuming the OP stated things exactly as they are and not while still in the "throes" of his frustration and anger, which is how it came off to me. The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

I think your instruction note is a good idea.
It shows one cannot put complete faith in a BBB rating, I guess.
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Porsche: Accept no substitute, unless you're poor!

The E90 sedan is the last in the line of great 4 door 3 Series BMW's. Too bad.

"The VW GTI remains and will likely continue to be one of the finest compact sports cars in the world." Christian Seabaugh, Motortrend, March 27, 2012.

06/02/2005-06/02/2014: 9 great years on Bimmerfest!!!
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  #115  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:21 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBinDC View Post
I think you are all missing an important point. Most likely the M5 will never be the same as it was before the accident. Any car that requires $30,000 to repair is not worth keeping. I think the guy should insist on the dealer selling him a new M5 at the dealer's cost plus providing a generous trade-in value on the damaged M5. Seems to me that would be a good deal for the dealer just to avoid the adverse publicity that he will incur if he fights this.
The dealer has given no indication of any attempt to "fight this". They have offered to repair the car. The OP is the only one talking about having a fight.

From the damage that it sounds like actually happened to the car I believe it's almost certain it can be repaired back to factory specs.

If the damages are already estimated at $30,000 then that's already more than 60% of the car's current value. Taking into account that supplemental estimates virtually always go higher it is more than likely the insurance company will declared it a total loss. It that happens it wouldn't surprise me at all if the "crash" dealership offered to find the OP an equivalent ///M5 at wholesale cost.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 09-05-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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  #116  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:34 PM
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Stevarino Stevarino is offline
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Originally Posted by RBinDC View Post
I think you are all missing an important point. Most likely the M5 will never be the same as it was before the accident. Any car that requires $30,000 to repair is not worth keeping. I think the guy should insist on the dealer selling him a new M5 at the dealer's cost plus providing a generous trade-in value on the damaged M5. Seems to me that would be a good deal for the dealer just to avoid the adverse publicity that he will incur if he fights this.
Let the insurance boys handle this one.
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Last edited by Stevarino; 09-05-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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  #117  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:45 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by RBinDC View Post
I think you are all missing an important point. Most likely the M5 will never be the same as it was before the accident. Any car that requires $30,000 to repair is not worth keeping. I think the guy should insist on the dealer selling him a new M5 at the dealer's cost plus providing a generous trade-in value on the damaged M5. Seems to me that would be a good deal for the dealer just to avoid the adverse publicity that he will incur if he fights this.
And how do you know this? You don't even know the extent of damage. If there is no frame damage, the car can likely be repaired to same as new condition. You can easily run through $30 large on just parts and labor on the M5 (with no frame work). Absent a repair estimate from a BMW-certified collision repair shop, it is all pure conjecture.
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  #118  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:52 PM
RBinDC RBinDC is offline
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And how do you know this? You don't even know the extent of damage. If there is no frame damage, the car can likely be repaired to same as new condition. You can easily run through $30 large on just parts and labor on the M5 (with no frame work). Absent a repair estimate from a BMW-certified collision repair shop, it is all pure conjecture.
I thought the $30K was the estimate from the BMW-certified shop that now has the car. Clearly, it all depends on the extent of the damage. My statement was predicated on the M5 having suffered substantial damage to the extent that it is unlikely to be repairable back to its original condition. In fact, if there is any repainting to be done (very likely) that alone diminishes the value of the vehicle even if the mechanicals can be restored to OEM condition. A car is never the same after it is repainted.

If this were a Toyota Camry repair it would be sufficient restitution. It's not; its an M5!
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  #119  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:04 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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I thought the $30K was the estimate from the BMW-certified shop that now has the car. Clearly, it all depends on the extent of the damage. My statement was predicated on the M5 having suffered substantial damage to the extent that it is unlikely to be repairable back to its original condition. In fact, if there is any repainting to be done (very likely) that alone diminishes the value of the vehicle even if the mechanicals can be restored to OEM condition. A car is never the same after it is repainted.

If this were a Toyota Camry repair it would be sufficient restitution. It's not; its an M5!
Meh. I don't know where the $30K number came from. If it was from the BMW-certified collision shop, I would want to know if there was frame work involved. If not, then the car can definitely be restored to like-new condition. Your concerns about re-painting are IMO over-blown. In a worst case, the entire car gets re-painted and there is no way you can tell (absent a paint thickness gauge) the car has been re-painted. Re-painting is not going to affect the structural integrity of the car.

If Texas allows claims for diminished value, then the owner can definitely be made whole. If not, then they should never have moved to Texas....
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  #120  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:07 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Let the insurance boys handle this one.
Yet for some reason, that is not the preferred course of action....
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  #121  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:09 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Originally Posted by RBinDC View Post
I thought the $30K was the estimate from the BMW-certified shop that now has the car. Clearly, it all depends on the extent of the damage. My statement was predicated on the M5 having suffered substantial damage to the extent that it is unlikely to be repairable back to its original condition. In fact, if there is any repainting to be done (very likely) that alone diminishes the value of the vehicle even if the mechanicals can be restored to OEM condition. A car is never the same after it is repainted.

If this were a Toyota Camry repair it would be sufficient restitution. It's not; its an M5!
My E90 330i has been painted on a fairly large area of the passenger side. Before I bought the car I gave it a very thorough inspection looking for any tell tell signs of repainting. The job was so good I couldn't tell it had been painted. I only found out after I bought the car and found the work order with a bunch of papers that were with the owner's manual in its pouch. I had to decide it didn't really matter much, because there is absolutely no sign of it.
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  #122  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:12 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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My E90 330i has been painted on a fairly large area of the passenger side. Before I bought the car I gave it a very thorough inspection looking for any tell tell signs of repainting. The job was so good I couldn't tell it had been painted. I only found out after I bought the car and found the work order with a bunch of papers that were with the owner's manual in it pouch. I had to decide its didn't really matter much, because there is absolutely no sign of it.
It depends on the skill of the paint shop and the color involved. I would think that a BMW-certified collision repair shop is up to the challenge of matching the BMW colors....
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  #123  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:21 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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It depends on the skill of the paint shop and the color involved. I would think that a BMW-certified collision repair shop is up to the challenge of matching the BMW colors....

I would agree. My color is Sonora which I'm sure is not easy to match.

I was surprised to see how few certified shops there are. On the BMW website you can search for them up to a 500 mile radius. I did a search from the DFW area and there are only seven certified shops within the 500 mile radius. DFW actually has three of them. Austin has one and Houston has NO BMW certified repair centers.
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  #124  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:27 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I would agree. My color is Sonora which I'm sure is not easy to match.

I was surprised to see how few certified shops there are. On the BMW website you can search for them up to a 500 mile radius. I did a search from the DFW area and there are only seven certified shops within the 500 mile radius. DFW actually has three of them. Austin has one and Houston has NO BMW certified repair centers.
Well, that wouldn't be the M5 owner's problem. Even if the car had to be flat-bedded out of state to the nearest certified shop, that is their due to get the car repaired correctly.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:22 PM
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hpowders hpowders is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
It would seem that an A+ rating by BBB is no protection from stupidity at the dealer.
Nope. Recently I filed a BBB claim against a Porsche dealer and won. Deceptive advertising.
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