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7 Series - E38 (1995 - 2001)

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  #1  
Old 09-23-2010, 04:17 PM
ou18 ou18 is offline
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Mein Auto: 1997 740 IL
97 740iL - Cranks but wont start

Hi All,

Im new to the forum as well as a new Bimmer owner. Well its an old car, but its my first Bimmer. A little detail, its a 1997 740 IL, with 165K+. I got it for a good price, with the expectation Ill have to do things to keep it running. Im fairly mechanically inclined and not afraid to tackle projects. Only thing I probably wouldnt mess with is Tranny work. But hey, you never know on that either.

So to my situaton.
Just over 24 hours ago, i went out to start my car. The car cranks but does not start. At first i didnt think the starter was engaging the flywheel. However, on opening the hood, i saw the the belts turning and the fan turning. So that doesnt seem to be my issue. I went and bought a code reader as my CEL has been on.

I recieved the following codes

P1384 Knock Sensor 3 Circuit
P1174 Fuel Trim Adaptation Additve Bank 1 Malfunction
P1175 Fuel Trim Adaptation Additve Bank 2 Malfunction
P0170 P0170 Fuel Trim Malfunction (Bank 1)
P0173 P0173 Fuel Trim Malfunction (Bank 2)
P0300 P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0305 CYLINDER MISFIRE
P0308 CYLINDER MISFIRE
P0306 CYLINDER MISFIRE
P0301 CYLINDER MISFIRE
P0303 CYLINDER MISFIRE
P0302 CYLINDER MISFIRE

My questions are, as vague or obvious as these codes might be,

1) could any of these cause the car not to start?
2) Could any of them be a symptom of a bad Camshaft Position Sensor or Crankshaft Position Sensor? I know the actual code for both of those isnt listed. But is it possible that the sensors are bad and didnt throw a code?

I pulled the back seat and turned the ignition to try and start.

3)Should i hear the fuel pump attempting to pump with the seat out of the car? Or is it pretty silent and wouldnt really hear anything without opening the plastic covering and what not.

One other note. I just recently purchased a new master key from BMW. It worked immediately for the vehicle and i drove it with no problem the first day. Second day car sat. Third day is when i incurred the no starting issue. All dash lights and everything turn on.

4) If there was an issue with the EWS (?) would the starter even engage the flywheel.

Note, Ive checked the fuel pump fuses. Both 17 and 57. Both are intact...

Sorry for all the questions and i do apologize if everything is scattered. Ive just been doing alot of reading and have a mess of questions...

Thanks everyone, I really do appreciate the help and guidance on this and any thoughts you all may have..

Regards
steve

Last edited by ou18; 09-23-2010 at 04:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2010, 05:42 PM
balance balance is offline
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Soon after I bought my 97, I got many of the same codes you have, such as the multiple cylinder misfires and fuel trim codes. My car had a very rough start on cold days right before it threw those codes. On mine, it turned out to be a vaccum leak on the OSV valve behind the intake manifold. When I replaced it, I also replaced the valve cover gaskets (oil on spark plugs), intake gaskets, tune up, and I cleaned the throttle body. This solved all of my problems and the codes never came back.

If you have a bad enough vaccum leak, the car will not start, but if it was that bad, you should have felt the car running rough before the no-start condition. The cam position sensor should have thrown a code if it was bad, but sometimes like you said, it doesn't. Try disconnecting it first, and then try to start the car. If it starts while disconnected, then you've found your problem.

If you are outside while someone else turns the key, you should hear the fuel pump cutting on for a second or two. When I worked at a Ford dealership, if you tried to start a Ford with a key that was not programmed to the car, it would cut on for a second and when the signal was not detected, the fuel system would shut off. If BMW uses the same system and you just got a master key made for the car (I assume at a BMW dealer), then I would call them back and see if they can check the car out for you, but I'm not sure if they will charge you for it or not. With that many codes in the system though, they probably will.

Have you tried using the old key?
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2010, 05:53 PM
ou18 ou18 is offline
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The car actually was idling very rough. The throttle body gasket to the intake manifold needs replaced. I identified this by spraying throttle body cleaner around the area, and the rpms would increase and then drop back down. So i know that needs replacing, and i actually have the part, just havent been able to get to it yet. I guess i have the time now.
Ill have to check the osv valve.

When i pulled the back seat up, and exposed the fuel tank. I didnt hear the fuel pump kick on. But i was turning the key and then checking to hear i heard something. Ill have to try with someone doing it and me standing by the fuel tank. Being the fuel pump is in the tank under the seat. Unless im missing something.

I also have a new fuel filter as well that i havent put on the car yet...

I did try the old key, same situation.

Thanks for the input. Ill try the trouble shooting steps Ie pulling the camshaft sensor and attempting to start.

Thanks again for your reply.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:12 PM
balance balance is offline
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If you don't hear the fuel pump from the inside or outside (it will only make a noise for one or two seconds after the key is turned), pull off the fuel line close to the firewall that connects to the fuel rail, and have someone turn the key to the "on" position. If fuel doesn't come out then the issue is with the fuel system since the old key doesn't work either.

If I was you, I would change the OSV gasket, throttle body gasket and intake gaskets at the same time to completely rule out the most common causes of vaccum leaks on these motors. The gasket kit I got with the throttle body gasket came with the OSV gasket as well.
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  #5  
Old 09-24-2010, 08:03 AM
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Im going try your suggestion tommorow morning with the fuel line to the fuel rail and see if anything comes out. I already have the fuel filter as well. So that will get replaced.
Ill look up online the gaskets and what not. I think im also going to do the oil pan gasket as well.
I love the car, and know im going to have to do some work. I just dont want to chase ghosts. That will frustrate me.

Thanks for the input again and the testing steps.
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  #6  
Old 09-24-2010, 03:42 PM
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Okay, So got home at a reasonable hour today. I disconnected the Fuel line to the Fuel Rail. Some Gas leaked from the fuel rail. caught that with a shop towel.
Let me make sure i got this straight, I dont think im an idiot, but hey, ive definitely been called much worse. the line i disconnected came from the passenger side of the vehicle, practically right up against the firewall.I didnt disconnect it there, i followed it to the fuel rail. It connected to the fuel rail on the driver side of the car,at the point closest to the firewall on the fuel rail. I then lifted the fuel line high enuff that i could see it while standing outside the car and turn the key to the on position. I did not see any fuel come from the line.
My next question as rediculous as this might sound. Being the fuel line enters the engine compartment from the passenger side, one would assume that those lines run under the car to the fuel filter(yes?) and then into the car to the fuel tank where the fuel pump would be enclosed inside the fuel tank (yes?).. so when i turned the car to the on position (not starting position), from a standing position on the driver side, i heard click and another noise that sounded like some kind of pump. However, the sounds were coming from what i believe is the front driver side of the engine compartment.

So, with that said, and not seeing fuel come from the disconnected fuel rail line, i can only assume that
1) The fuel pump is bad?
2) The fuel filter is clogged and may have never been changed in 13 years of use?
3) The Fuel Lines are clogged some where between the tank and the engine compartment?

Im sure there are other things contributing here, however based on the test Balance had suggested with the fuel line, and not seeing any fuel come thru, it appears i have a fuel supply problem at this time?

Being I have bought a new key for the car. is there some kind of mechanism that allows the starter to engage and everything to turn on, but disable the fuel pump from providing fuel to the car?
Keep in mind the old key does not start the car either now...
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  #7  
Old 09-24-2010, 06:23 PM
black 740iL black 740iL is offline
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Check power to the fuel pump. I had a no start problem a month ago. No fuel pump prime no injector pulse and no spark. I ended up replacing the Crankshaft position sensor and repaired my problem. The fuel pump in under the rear seat and if you apply power from the wires running from the battery to the pump it will come on if the pump works. The fuel pump will NOT prime or even cycle for the normal 3 seconds if the crankshaft sensor is bad. Check for spark and apply power to the pump 1st. It could just be a 5 minute crankshaft position problem causing all your problems
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  #8  
Old 09-24-2010, 06:31 PM
balance balance is offline
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So it is a fuel issue. What you should do now is go under the car to where the fuel filter is and disconnect the fuel line that goes from the pump to the filter (inlet), then have someone turn the key to the "on" position. If fuel comes out of that line, then one would assume that the pump is working and the flow is being stopped at the filter, and then you've found your problem. If no fuel comes out of that line, then one would assume that the pump isn't working.

If the pump is not working, then I would take the pump out of the car, and directly connect the leads to the battery and see if the pump cuts on. If it doesn't, then the pump has burnt out, and you've found your problem. If it does, then either you need a new fuel pump relay, or you need to get the electrical or security systems checked out.

Stupid question, but you do have gas in the tank, right?

It looks like I was writing as black740iL posted, and I agree that it could also be the crank sensor, but check if the pump is working first.

Last edited by balance; 09-24-2010 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Posted at same time as another poster
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  #9  
Old 09-24-2010, 07:06 PM
ou18 ou18 is offline
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Thanks Black and Balance. I appreciate the input. that was my next test procedure was to move to the fuel filter. and keep working toward the fuel pump. If i dont have a working fuel pump at that point, i will definitely replace. But Im also thinking about doing the following replacements as well

Throttle body to Intake Gasket
Intake Manifold Gasket
Valve Cover Gaskets
CranksShaft Sensor
CamShaft Sensor
Oil Pan Gasket.
When i have the intake apart, im thinking checking the valley pan and its gasket. If im gonna pull it apart, might make sense to check and replace this as well..


Since i just bought the car, i have no clue what has been done to it, and can only imagine this is just good maintenance to keep her running the way she should

I really appreciate the patience guys and input.
Ill Keep you updated on what it turns out to be.

Black, I did read that a bad crankshaft sensor will cause the car not to start. But as I have asked in the previous posts. Is it common for that to not throw a code?
I have read its possible, but is it common?

Thanks again, updates to follow
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  #10  
Old 09-24-2010, 07:21 PM
balance balance is offline
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Don't forget to replace the OSV gasket as well while the intake is out.
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  #11  
Old 09-24-2010, 07:43 PM
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Ill add it to the list
Anything else i should replace let me know... Only want to have to do this once.
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  #12  
Old 09-25-2010, 10:44 AM
balance balance is offline
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Only other thing I can think of in that area is the valley pan gasket, but I haven't had to replace mine yet. You should also check out the heater hoses on the firewall to see if they look old or cracked, and maybe replace the fuel line that goes to the rail if it is cracking.
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:23 PM
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Well, I got the car up on jackstands today. Pulled the shroud off where the fuel filter is. The rubber hoses that connect the fuel filter inline were badly cracked. Went to the auto parts store and replaced those with some new ones. Added new clamps. Before i did this, i had a friend of mine turn the key to the on position without the fuel filter inline. Nothing came out. I havent dug into the fuel pump and tested that as of yet. That will be next.
On this note, where is the fuel pump relay located, is it one of the light green relays in the trunk. If so which one? Its not labled and have had a hard time finding information on where it is.
Tommorow im going to dig into the fuel pump. But the relay is a cheap part, 12 bucks so im thinking if i can get the replacement for it before i cut open the fuel tank and what not, that would be alot easier. Not that getting in there is tuff by any means...
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:15 AM
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Well I think identified the problem. I tested the power to the plug going into the fuel pump. I got good power to the plug.
I pulled the fuel pump out the tank and hooked 2 wires to the positive and negative of the pump. Then touched the wires to the battery in the car. Nothing. It sounds like it wanted to click on, however the pump never whirs to life. So Im assuming i have a pump problem based on the lack of noise or any other activity.
Guess Ill replace that and see if she comes back to life....
Ill keep you all posted....
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:05 PM
balance balance is offline
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It looks like the pump went out. When you get a replacement, make sure you get a new mesh filter that connects to the bottom of the pump. I'm sorry I don't remember the name of it right now, but on some fuel pumps, they need to be bought seperately.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:02 PM
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Purchased my new filter today, 79 dollars 14 dollars expedited shipping. I didnt buy all the plastics surrounding the pump as it didnt really make much sense to pay another 100 dollars just for the plastic collar,when i can pop out the old pump and replace it myself. It does come with the filter screen as well. Should be here hopefully tommorow or wednesday.
Stay tuned kids...
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:04 PM
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Tuned in.. Interested in the end result. Good luck.
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Old 09-29-2010, 05:32 PM
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Well Kids. Sure enuff, it was definitely the fuel pump the new one arrived today, after ordering it on monday. Not bad. highflowfuel.com or something like that. I just installed it. But before i did, i hooked it to the car battery for a quick check to make sure i wasnt doing something wrong on the other one. Cause YOU NEVER CAN TELL. And sure enuff, it jumped to life. Only touched it long enuff to see it move. So about 1 second.

Then i got to dismantling the plastic collar off the old burned out pump. Which proved to be a bit of a PITA. But i did find a nifty way to do it. Ready for this. Butter Knives. They are thin enuff and the metal is thick enuff to withstand the pressure of the three little clips over the "bulge" on the fuel Pump. Then once you have them in place, give a firm push down on the collar. Pops right off. I just realized i used the word Nifty. Oh well. So got to putting it back together. By the way, trying to get the Plastic collar to seat in its holder in the dark is a bit of nusance. But I got it done. Sealed up the whole and got to turning her over. She struggled for a bit, but once there was pressure in the fuel line, she kicked over and purred to life.

Now keep in mind i have no kids, just the four legged ones. So the sweet sound of that engine turning over and roaring to life was a sweet sweet sound.

Thanks to everyones for their advice and tips. I am still planning on doing the other items, gaskets, osv, etc .But for right now. Im happy she starts....

Thanks again everyone...
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Old 09-29-2010, 05:54 PM
balance balance is offline
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Great news and good job, thanks for posting back to tell what fixed it.

If I ever need to replace my fuel pump, I'll pull out one of those nifty butter knives . It's funny how guys turn into MacGuyver when we need to . If you need any help on the other gaskets, let us know, and you should also check out www.E38.org for more info.
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Old 09-29-2010, 06:05 PM
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congrats! glad it was a simple fix!
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Old 09-29-2010, 06:30 PM
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Balance,
Yeah the butterknives worked like a charm. It was an easy repair that is for sure. Hardest part was getting the plastic collar off. And it was far cheaper just getting the Fuel pump and not spending the extra money on the plastic collar. As for e38.org. Already am on that site on a daily basis.

RRtec,
Yeah it was nice that it was a simple fix. But Im still going to replace the other stuff too. I noticed a slight oil drip under the car. So Ill be checking valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket and anything else that has the word gasket in it. LOL
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:47 AM
black 740iL black 740iL is offline
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Thumbs up

Glad you got it fixed!! Did you replace the strainer that goes on the bottom as well??
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:09 PM
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Hey Black,
Yes I replaced the strainer as well on the fuel pump. It came with a new one. Got a great price for it, 80 dollars and no problem replacing the in the plastic collar. Car actually feels more responsive with the new fuel pump and filter. Im gonna start collecting the gaskets that need to be replaced and im sure it will feel even better once im done with that...
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:43 PM
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Hey guys. I am new to this site, but as i have read alot of these posts they are very helpful. Well I need help with my 1996 728i. I am looking for the fuel relay. For some strange reason my car wouldnt start. It will crank ,but not turn over. The battery is fine, and it has fuel. It also has a new starter. I want to see if its the cheap stuff first before i get to the more expensive. Any help would be really appreciated.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:37 AM
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Bumpin,
Not sure on your 728. However check the following fuse. I had this exact same issue after i did a mountain of work on 740.. IT wouldnt click, wouldnt turn over, couldnt even here the fuel pump whir. What mind turned out to be when i got digging around. I had just recently changed the oil pan gasket and the oil level sensor gasket. However some oil was leaking onto the wires going into the oil level sensor, which was causing a fuse to blow. Making the car appear completely dead. Not a damn peep out of the thing when i attempted to turn her over.

The fuse in question on my 740, is located in the fuse panel in the engine bay on the passenger side. If memory recalls and i just went out to check, it was the Engine Control Fuse. It will be you cheapest check and easiest fix. Given that you can also identify the cause of it, if that is in fact what it is...

Good luck, hopefully that is the issue. There is also a fuel pump fuse in that Fuse box as well.

Again this is on my 740 IL 97. Not sure if the configuration is the same on a 728
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