When I spill gasoline and it flows into holes at 3 & 9 o'clock ... where does it go?

Originally Posted by QSilver7

Then that would probably be the #2 vent hose which is identified by you & the TIS (see the link I inserted in reply #22 to the TIS...which is identified in the 2nd image) You can see it running from the bottom of the filler neck, then into a hole in the fender, then down & out of the bottom like in the pic you posted.

I think it's a drain for the filler neck recess in the body, not a vent for the fuel system. I've circled the place on the TIS diagram where I think it connects.



The hole is clearly visible in Bluebee's immaculately clean gasket. I've annotated the photo below.

Originally Posted by QSilver7

our cars also have a system of recovering unburnt fuel which is mostly in the form of vapor...the canister collects this fuel vapor, and the evap purge valve expels this vapor into the exhaust manifold to be burnt instead of wasting it away to the atmosphere.

This is a wonderful team effort where we try to figure out HOW the fuel system vents, drains, vapor recovery lines, etc. work.

One minor question as I read (and reread multiple times) the responses above, didn't you mean "intake" manifold above?

I think you did simply because the charcoal canister hose seems to go to the purge valve which has a hose which seems to go to the intake manifold (not the exhaust manifold). Right?

Originally Posted by QSilver7

back down into the tank: http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/01/37/30

This is a nice diagram showing the OTHER SIDE of the fuel filler hole!

Here it is in 800x600 pixel screenshot format to make it easier for others to see:

Originally Posted by bluebee

And, I don't know of any good pictures of the E39 charcoal canister yet.

Here's the Evap and charcoal canister pics.

Originally Posted by doru

All the overflow in the engine is re-circulated back into the charcoal canister.

Pretty sure the M54 has a return-less fuel system, at least here in Europe.

Originally Posted by Shires

Pretty sure the M54 has a return-less fuel system, at least here in Europe.

When the fuel pressure regulator was moved from the engine bay and put in the end of the fuel filter the fuel was returned to the tank from the filter to control the fuel pressure.
So it is still a return system, just not from the engine. This move was to keep the fuel temp that was returned to the tank a bit lower. It also increases BMW's profits because you have to purchase a new regulator with the filter.

Originally Posted by JimLev

Here's the Evap and charcoal canister pics.

Thanks for those wonderful pictures!

I had searched all the E39 related threads with the charcoal canister embedded in the title ...
- charcol cannister
- Charcoal Evap Canister Potential Problems
- New Member Introductions > bmw e39 528i charcoal canister location
- where is the evap canister on 2000 528i?
- anister Purge Solenoid
- Charcoal Evap Canister Potential Problems
- 540iT puddle of oil around the filter canister...???
- How Long to Replace a VAPOR CANISTER?
- HAS anyone replaced their VAPOR CANISTER???
etc.

... and I had not seen 'any' pictures of the E39 charcoal canister; so these two pics are a wonderful value addition. Thank you for taking the time to snap them.

When I look at the diagram in post #6 above, I don't yet understand which picture is of which part.

For example, looking back at my particular diagram:
- 2002 E39 525i => Fuel Supply => Ventilation => EXP.TANK/ACTIVATED CARBON CONTAINER

I see there is a part #11 (Activated Charcoal Filter) & two other parts that might be the other picture (#12 Leak Diagnosis Pump & #13 Dust Filter).

Since neither looks exactly like the pictures above, is the presumption below correct?

Is this #11 (Activated Charcoal Filter)?
(and is it in the correct orientation?)


Is this #12 (Leak Diagnosis Pump)? And is it in the right orientation?

I've annotated Jim's photos for some parts. I'm not sure if I've appropriately identified the vent pipe in the first photo.

In the second photo, I'm not sure if I've identified the fuel tank breather line correctly.

Originally Posted by Steve530

I've annotated Jim's photos

Wow. I didn't even realize there 'was' an "Expansion Tank" in the driver side rear wheel well!

I see the expansion tank now, in the diagrams in post #6 above as:

• - 2002 E39 525i => Fuel Supply => Ventilation => EXP.TANK/ACTIVATED CARBON CONTAINER
  • For vehicles produced from 09/01/2000
  • 01 EXPANSION TANK, Qty=1, 09/2000, PN=16131183814, $149.61

Originally Posted by Steve530

I'm not sure if I've appropriately identified the vent pipe in the first photo. In the second photo, I'm not sure if I've identified the fuel tank breather line correctly.

Using your annotated photo as a start, I just found the attached TIS 11.09.20.3 for the E38 & E39 New Evaporative Charcoal Canister Purge Line.

I don't profess to understand it though ... so may I ask if it answers these two questions you had?

I think it tells me that I identified the vent pipe incorrectly.

Neat TIS, though. Spiders crawl into vent pipe, vent pipe gets clogged with spider webs, and fuel pump pulls enough vacuum to collapse gas tank because the vent is clogged. Solution is screen - over vent pipe.

Here's another shot with the parts removed. I took them out just to get a look at where all of the lines went and to clean the dirt off of the inside.
This was back when I changed springs and installed Koni FSD's about 4 years ago, from my pre-blue powder coating days. I liked red back then.

Jim,

Is that blck line or blue line running over the top of the expansion tank open to the atmosphere? It's supposed to have a screen to prevent spiders from crawling into the vent.

Not like I think there's a chance of a spider in you garage. You must spend a lot of time cleaning.

BTW, what did you replace the Koni FSDs with?

Steve

Originally Posted by Steve530

Is that blck line or blue line running over the top of the expansion tank open to the atmosphere? It's supposed to have a screen to prevent spiders from crawling into the vent.

I see you (Steve) understood that four-page warranty repair document better than I did.

Re-reading it a few times, apparently, when fuel leaves the fuel tank, air from this screened purge-line (i.e., vent line) goes into the charcoal canister and then into the fuel tank to replace the missing fuel.

If this "purge line" gets clogged, it can't be cleaned (according to the TIS anyway); it must be replaced.

Otherwise, the fuel tank partially collapses, causing knocking sounds while driving and hissing sounds while removing the gas cap (or so the TIS says).

Originally Posted by Steve530

Jim,

Is that blck line or blue line running over the top of the expansion tank open to the atmosphere? It's supposed to have a screen to prevent spiders from crawling into the vent.

Not like I think there's a chance of a spider in you garage. You must spend a lot of time cleaning.

BTW, what did you replace the Koni FSDs with?

Steve

Steve,
The black and blue lines are difficult to say where they go after they go into the body, see pic. The blue one does connect to the dust filter.
I was installing Koni FSD's when I took the pics, they are still in the car with ~50K on them and are still working fine.
I do have some spiders in the garage, they like to come in during the winter...a heated garage does have a few negatives.
I don't spend a lot of time cleaning, I just don't drive it when the weather is bad or in the winter. I use to have 4 cars, but I'm down to 3 now, so the 540 doesn't see snow or salt.
It's always been a winter garage queen.

Originally Posted by bluebee

I see you (Steve) understood that four-page warranty repair document better than I did....

I had to re-read it a few times, too.

I guess not every part was over-enigneered.

Originally Posted by JimLev

Steve,
The black and blue lines are difficult to say where they go after they go into the body, see pic. The blue one does connect to the dust filter.
I was installing Koni FSD's when I took the pics, they are still in the car with ~50K on them and are still working fine.
I do have some spiders in the garage, they like to come in during the winter...a heated garage does have a few negatives.
I don't spend a lot of time cleaning, I just don't drive it when the weather is bad or in the winter. I use to have 4 cars, but I'm down to 3 now, so the 540 doesn't see snow or salt.
It's always been a winter garage queen.

The TIS says that the line that is to be replaced attaches to the center of the fitting on the top of the carbon canister. So that looks to be the black line that is supposed to be open to the atmosphere. But that TIS is pretty old, so maybe it was re-designed. Anyway, my guess is that the blue line is the hose that foes to the purge valve. I think the filter is just to protect the orifice in the diagnostic pump.

I started to buy Koni FSDs, but read about problems with them and decided to go with Bilstein HDs instead. They are a bit harsh, but I prefer to think of them as controlled.

The car and garage look great.

Thanks for taking time to post the photos.

Originally Posted by bluebee

... didn't you mean "intake" manifold above?

I think you did simply because the charcoal canister hose seems to go to the purge valve which has a hose which seems to go to the intake manifold (not the exhaust manifold). Right?

Thank you Bluebee...yes..I should have typed "intake" manifold.

BTW...I concur...this has been some fascinating technical reading....and some really great contributions.

This equally hard to read document 'should' explain how the fuel system venting works (if only I could understand the document):
- BMW_E39_E38_Fuel_Supply_System_Description.pdf

Here is an excerpt of that document where I've tried to highlight the relevant drain & venting holes in the text below the diagram:


Parts:
1. Fuel tank (E38 steel, E39 plastic)
2. Electric fuel supply pump
3. Surge chamber
4. Suction jet pump
5. Pressure limiting valve
6. Outlet protection valve
7. Pressure test line (USA only)
8. Non-return flap
9. Filler pipe
10. Tank cap
11. Tank expansion line
12. Refueling vent line (USA only)
13. Service vent line
14. Expansion tank
15. Roll-over valve
16. Float valve (USA only)
17. Fuel return line
18. Fuel feed line
19. Fuel filter
20. Pressure regulator
21. 3/2-way valve (M52 USA only)
22. Fuel rail
23. Purge line
24. Engine control unit
25. Tank vent valve
26. Intake manifold
27. Vacuum line (LDP USA only)
28. Carbon canister
29. Evaporation line
30. Leakage diagnosis pump (USA only)
31. Tank leakage diagnostic module (USA only)
32. Dust filter (USA only)

While each model (M52, M54, M62, USA vs otherwise, etc.) works differently, here is the text excerpt slightly modified for my M54 USA model (see the document for the original text which covers all vehicles).

M62TU/M54:
Both the pressure regulator and the fuel filter are incorporated into a single unit.

The fuel is routed from the electric fuel supply pump via the fuel feed line and the fuel filter/pressure regulator unit to the fuel rail.

The fuel rail is return-free. Excess fuel flows directly from the fuel filter/pressure regulator unit back into the fuel tank.

The fuel tank is vented during refueling via the refueling vent line. Because of its large cross-section, the refueling vent line directs the displaced volume (fuel vapors) at high speed through the expansion tank to the carbon canister.

The activated carbon retains the fuel contained in the fuel vapors. The cleaned air is discharged to the atmosphere via the evaporation line, the leakage diagnosis pump or the tank leakage diagnostic module and the dust filter.

During driving, the system tank is vented in the same way via the refueling vent line and service vent line.

The condensed constituents of the fuel vapors pass from the expansion tank via the service vent line back into the fuel tank.

The float valve in the refueling vent line (E39 only) is closed by the rising fuel if the tank is overfilled. This prevents overflowing of the expansion tank.

The roll-over valve on the upper side of the expansion tank closes in the event of the vehicle overturning. This prevents the fuel from escaping into the carbon canister.

The carbon canister is regenerated by purging with fresh air.

The engine control unit opens the tank vent valve. Thus the vacuum pressure of the engine intake manifold is applied at the purge line. In this way, the carbon canister is purged by the supply of fresh air via the evaporation line, the leakage diagnosis
pump or the tank leakage diagnostic module and the dust filter.

The fuel constituents bound by the activated carbon are flushed out by the supplied air and directed via the purge line to the engine for combustion. This operation is only possible while the engine is running.

The leakage diagnosis pump or tank leakage diagnostic module serves to detect leakages for the tank venting system within the on-board diagnosis laid down by legislation.

The tank venting system is pressurized and the pressure loss is detected in the event of a leak. With the leakage diagnosis pump, the pressure loss is measured by way of the repumping time. The pump is operated with vacuum pressure from the intake manifold via the vacuum line. The tank leakage diagnostic module detects the pressure loss by way of the power consumption of the integrated pump. The air required for this purpose is supplied via the dust filter.

Both systems are activated by the engine control unit.

The pressure test line establishes the connection between fuel tank and filler neck. This enables a leak to be detected in the filler pipe - tank cap area.

Determining fill level in fuel tank
The fuel level is measured by means of lever-type sensors on both sides of the fuel tank. The right lever-type sensor is integrated in the fuel supply unit. The left lever-type sensor is located in the left sensor unit. The combination of the determined ohm values from the right and left lever-type sensors produces the actual level in the fuel tank.

Pressure regulator: M54=3.5 bar (~51 psi), S62=5 bar (~73 psi)
Working pressure of suction jet pumps: 1 bar to 1.3 bar (~15 psi to ~19 psi)

Originally Posted by bluebee

This equally hard to read document 'should' explain how the fuel system venting works (if only I could understand the document):
- BMW_E39_E38_Fuel_Supply_System_Description.pdf

...

Nice find, Bluebee.

I've attached a copy of Diagram 5.5 that has some parts labeled that are discussed in the quoted narrative.

Since the holes are within the filler neck #9, the only place for the fuel to go is to the tank.

Originally Posted by chiefwej

Since the holes are within the filler neck #9, the only place for the fuel to go is to the tank.

+1, 2 and 3....that's exactly where it goes.
If you want to prove it to yourself look in with a flashlight, get a thin piece of wire pushed into either hole. Watch where it comes out.

Originally Posted by MatWiz

[LEFT]See step #7. Picture with the red arrow, and the picture with the red circle.
It points to an overfill drain line, that goes around the wheel well, and spill the overflow into the ground.

mw

On the ground? I think the EPA would have a problem with that...

It drains back in to the tank.

It goes into the petrol leprechaun's secret pot.

Originally Posted by chiefwej

since the holes are within the filler neck #9, the only place for the fuel to go is to the tank.

Originally Posted by jimlev

+1, 2 and 3....that's exactly where it goes.
If you want to prove it to yourself look in with a flashlight, get a thin piece of wire pushed into either hole. Watch where it comes out.

+2

By way of cross reference, this poster will be replacing the canister-related breather valve, so I asked him to snap some locational pictures for us of the hose routing:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > CEL which is not loose fuel filler cap

Originally Posted by NZ BMW

Just a quick update - my local dealer was kind enough to scan my codes for me whilst the car was in for a cooling system overhaul. They provided the following description of the code:

Engine warning light on - Read fault codes follow test plan
Carbon canister solenoid valve faulty

I'm doing an order of parts from the US to take advantage of our high dollar and also that your parts are so cheap! Is this the part that I will need - it's the breather valve, does that contain the solenoid?

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...20Vent%20Valve

For the record, there are some nice inside pictures here:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > Gas filling line remove fender well

Originally Posted by kuykendall

I was having a gas leak when fill complete up and look under car it was leaking so I was thinking at the hose that mount to tank, so I took fender well off to check it and to find out there nothing wrong here....so as I was going into it was taken picture of it as I go....so everyone can see how it done. Sorry this didn't turn out the way I wanted it to, just new to adding picture and wanted to put a line with a text along each picture so going have to learn on how to do this.......will work on this parts