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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 09-28-2010, 06:46 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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I just took delivery of my 11 550i here in Chicago after doing BMW European Delivery in July. Both are great cars. The F10 is better in every respect except for a very slight edge in handling going to the smaller E60. The F10 wins hands down overall and is extremely impressive and refined.
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  #27  
Old 09-28-2010, 08:28 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newmanium View Post
No no, lol, just curious how the used market is. I put my 530i on Craigslist for 2 weeks and never heard a peep, noticed similars at dealers were going for just over my tradein offer and were languishing, so I got spooked and just traded in to avoid the hassle.

Just curious if you were faring any better - good luck.
Here's my recent experience trying to sell my '08 335i 6MT in excellent condition, though a few more miles than I would like (42K miles). It looked brand new inside and out. I live in the DC area, put an ad in the Wash. Post, cars.com and craigslist. Got a couple idiotic offers off craigslist as usual. Waited about 3 weeks and was getting ready to sell to a BMW/MB specialist dealer around here. Finally got 1 call from the newpaper ad and sold it for $1500 over what the dealer was giving me. Not at all like my experience selling my '05 330i back in '08, it was much easier to find interested buyers to sell to.
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  #28  
Old 09-28-2010, 08:48 AM
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kenhamm kenhamm is online now
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I drove my F10 550 about 3000 miles while in Germany. The interior is far superior to the E60, the electronics are also much better with addtional features that I did not have on the E60, including a much improved Idrive (screen, nav etc). I would have to agree with Pharding on the handling, a slight edge goes to the E60, but there is more power with the F10. I do miss the engine sounds that the E60 550 made, when you first started the E60 550, that rumble was awesome. Now the styling, I owned 2 E60's, and yes the styling was controversial, but I have to say, I really liked the styling, it was different and it was very muscular and sporty at the same time. And you know what, it didnt look like any other BMW, I had several Germans tell me that it looked either like a larger 3 series or a smaller 7 series, I have to kinda agree. Dont get me wrong, I like the styling and I did get a lot of compliments while driving around Germany. Overall, I like the F10 and cant wait to take re-delivery, and the interior is really much better, I guess I am kinda going to miss that Bangle uniqueness.
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  #29  
Old 09-28-2010, 09:39 AM
FPNY FPNY is offline
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I liked the style of the e60, I've had it over three years and still look out into my driveway to see it. I love seeing that car, and I will love the f10 too. I have an 08 535xi, when I get into that car I feel surrounded by quality. The way the buttons feel when you press one, the way the signal lever feels when you use it, the way the steering wheel feels, it's all excellent. My passengers always compliment the car too, they know they are in a car, not some tin box with seats in it. Yes, there were some draw backs to the 08, the idrive is clumsy, but I wouldnt let that stop me from buying, I hated the way the bangle butt looked, but I bought anyway. With all the complaints I know and all those I read, I still think this is far and away the best car in it's price range.
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  #30  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:29 AM
nealh nealh is offline
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I thought part of the issue was IAS on F10. Ithought the DHP gave the car the sportier feel with more driver connection without IAS
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  #31  
Old 09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of their cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly improved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?
Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60? You would have the car you like so much and save a lot of money as well. Even out of warranty the cost of ownership will still be less than the depreciation or leasing costs of an new F10. You can probably pick up a really good E60 535i or 550i at a very low price.

These cars are built to drive a long long time. Today I spoke with a guy I know who is still driving his 1983 733i with 175,000 miles that he bought new in 1983. Another guy I know is very happy driving his 1994 740i.
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  #32  
Old 09-28-2010, 04:19 PM
roxnadz roxnadz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
Weren't people saying the same exact things about the E60 when it came out, vs the E39? 'Too big, too soft, not as sporty, 'a step backwards', etc.
Trust me, a lot of people still are saying that
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  #33  
Old 09-28-2010, 05:13 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60?

Hmmm...have you ever purchased a car and sold it within the first couple of months and saved a lot of money? Trust me, you lose dearly.
I'll hold on to it until it makes financial sense to trade it. And it will not be for an E60 since I don't buy used cars. I put high value on knowing the exact history of my cars. The F10 is not a bad car just less involving and fun than the E60. It's not like I can't live with it or stand it but I also think it's ok to express critcism and discuss things that I find a bit disappointing with other F10 or E60 owners don't you think?

That said, I pushed the car pretty hard today to get some fresh inputs. It's a very competent and efficient car that "handles" well for it's size I agree on that. With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side. So going fast and eating miles efficently is not a problem but since the car is low on feedback and feels "big" it's just less fun than the E60. It's like bmw didn't prioritize the fun factor and settled on clinically competent and efficient.
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  #34  
Old 09-28-2010, 06:09 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60?

Hmmm...have you ever purchased a car and sold it within the first couple of months and saved a lot of money? Trust me, you lose dearly.
I'll hold on to it until it makes financial sense to trade it. And it will not be for an E60 since I don't buy used cars. I put high value on knowing the exact history of my cars. The F10 is not a bad car just less involving and fun than the E60. It's not like I can't live with it or stand it but I also think it's ok to express critcism and discuss things that I find a bit disappointing with other F10 or E60 owners don't you think?

That said, I pushed the car pretty hard today to get some fresh inputs. It's a very competent and efficient car that "handles" well for it's size I agree on that. With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side. So going fast and eating miles efficently is not a problem but since the car is low on feedback and feels "big" it's just less fun than the E60. It's like bmw didn't prioritize the fun factor and settled on clinically competent and efficient.
I guess you could have just kept you old E60. You probably didn't have the opportunity to drive a new F10 before you bought it.
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  #35  
Old 09-28-2010, 06:43 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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Some posters here don't have any friends outside of Bimmerfest and have very few friends here. Some people are socially challenged.
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Last edited by pharding; 09-28-2010 at 06:47 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2010, 06:45 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side.
It's the springs mostly, to get the levels of comfort BMW designed for the F10 it had to have softer springs. At least that part that you don't like can be easily fixed.
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  #37  
Old 09-28-2010, 07:13 PM
nealh nealh is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
It's the springs mostly, to get the levels of comfort BMW designed for the F10 it had to have softer springs. At least that part that you don't like can be easily fixed.
I think it it has more to do with ARS. Body roll is greatly reduced with it. I love the feel on my 650i
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2010, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
I just took delivery of my 11 550i here in Chicago after doing BMW European Delivery in July. Both are great cars. The F10 is better in every respect except for a very slight edge in handling going to the smaller E60. The F10 wins hands down overall and is extremely impressive and refined.
Congrats on getting your 550 back from Europe! I know it was a loooong wait...

Enjoy!
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  #39  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:34 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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pharding I'm also happy to hear that bmw fixed the steering sloppiness you experienced during your ED. I never experienced sloppiness but I always experience a vague center feel and numbness. During my ED I also had a few unsettling occasions where the steering suddenly jerked a degree or two with zero resistance. I haven't felt that back home but I also haven't driven such long, fast and spirited stretches so I don't feel sure that it's gone yet.
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  #40  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:52 PM
2008550I 2008550I is offline
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I had my 2008 E60 for 3 yrs. And while I enjoyed driving it and had few, if any complaints, I'm loving the styling and giddy-up of my F10. Not gonna over analyze as there's always gonna be room for improvement for me (still don't understand why they can't get the sunglass storage and cup holders right). But I'm still getting compliments from totally strange women and I still have fun driving it. As for for a point by point analysis, I'll leave that to the other folks here.
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  #41  
Old 09-28-2010, 11:00 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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"compliments from totally strange women"

No compliments from normal or just strange women?
Seriously, I know what you mean and my daughters and wife are in love with our F10. As to other women I always thought it was me and not the car that caused the stir, < sound of a bubble bursting >.
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  #42  
Old 09-29-2010, 09:36 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Some posters here don't have any friends outside of Bimmerfest and have very few friends here. Some people are socially challenged.
People who make personal comments about other people's personalities are by definition the one's who are "socially challenged".
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  #43  
Old 09-30-2010, 07:50 PM
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goodchip goodchip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The F10 is that upper class model you dated back in college. So damn pretty and well mannered and who gave you immediate status among men at any occassion. The E60 is the sporty quirky girl, a little bit too muscular and with a few scars here and there but oh so much fun were it really counts...
I wish I'd said that!
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  #44  
Old 10-01-2010, 01:31 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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The F10 is a 5er that morphed into a different personality that is a near 7er at a lower price point. Now there is clearly more emphasis on Luxury and less emphasis on Sport. The cabin is larger and much more refined in the F10. The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time. The F10 is a great car with a slightly different personality than what BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer.

Undoubtedly this will prompt the Ultimate BMW Fan Boy, richschneid, to jump in and start slinging insults because I have expressed my own informed opinion. What he does not realize is that everyone here is entitled to express his/her own opinion because that is what a message board is for. That is what makes this message board interesting. Unfortunately some people cannot handle others expressing an opinion that differs from their own.
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  #45  
Old 10-01-2010, 02:50 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
The F10 is a 5er that morphed into a different personality that is a near 7er at a lower price point. Now there is clearly more emphasis on Luxury and less emphasis on Sport. The cabin is larger and much more refined in the F10. The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time. The F10 is a great car with a slightly different personality than what BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer.

Undoubtedly this will prompt the Ultimate BMW Fan Boy, richschneid, to jump in and start slinging insults because I have expressed my own informed opinion. What he does not realize is that everyone here is entitled to express his/her own opinion because that is what a message board is for. That is what makes this message board interesting. Unfortunately some people cannot handle others expressing an opinion that differs from their own.
What is really amazing is that is seems you are unable to write a post without referring to me. It is possible to disagree with someone without calling them names. I totally agree with you that you should express your opinion as should everyone. I also have the right to express my opinion. It seems that the one opinion I cannot express is one that disagrees with you.

Now for the final irony. I also completely agree with you about the new F10 in terms of BMWs intentions as to its target consumer in this car. Or, actually it seems that now you agree with me.

"The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time."

This is probably precisely correct. The operative phrase here is "comparably equipped". My point is that, and always has been on this thread, that BMW has developed options for the F10 that do make the car into one that "BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer." If the F10 is equipped with DHP, IAS, sport automatic, sport package, and possibly with the same tires as the E60 it will handle as well as the E60.

Now one thing I have previously ommitted in this debate is distinction between "sportiness" and "performance". "Sportiness" is a subjective assessment. "Performance" is something that can be objectively measured. I think the options I mentioned above will enhance the objective performance numbers even if they don't give the car the same feel as an E60. So, I guess I have been remiss in that I have not drawn this distinction in the past and I apologize for that. Maybe that has led to some of these misunderstandings.

As you know I have owned both an E39 M5 and an E39 540i with sport package for a total of 6 years. I understand and appreciate the level of "sportiness" of the previous 5 series. The 650i I have owned for the past 5 years has the same basic underpinnings as the E60 and is also very "sporty", but not as much as the M6. The 650i is more refined than the E39 M5 and even though some people might consider it less "sporty" than the E39 M5 it actually handles much better despite the fact that it has active steering and ARS. I think it handles better, in part, because of the active steering and ARS in addition to the more sophisticated underlying suspension geometry. Similarly, the F10 has a much improved suspension over the 650i and E60. The feel is somewhat different however. I did, however, also drive the M6, and all the M cars, on the track in South Carolina at the BMW facility where I also took the two day driving course.

I guess my personal criteria for a car is performance, which is what I can feel when I drive a car. This includes such things as maximal lateral g forces, lane change capability, braking distance, and acceleration among others. It also include the subjective impressions such as minimal body lean in curves, which is why I like the ARS so much. But I also judge a car by its level of luxury and refinement. This includes sound level and ride quality.

For me to have a car with the luxury and refinement of a 7 series and the performance of my E39 M5 is a miracle of engineering and I for one thank BMW to be able to provide me with such a car even if it isn't perfect in every way. So in that sense I guess I am a "Fan Boy". "You Betcha".

I think your assessment of your car has evolved since you got it in a positive direction to the point where you and I basically agree about the car. Now I hope you and I can stop this back and forth vituperation and express our opinions without any attendent name calling such as "Fan Boy". I fully welcome your opinions and your right to disagree with me. I just think this is possible to do intelligently and without attacks on other people's personalities.
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Last edited by richschneid; 10-01-2010 at 10:11 AM.
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  #46  
Old 10-01-2010, 11:59 AM
carnuts3 carnuts3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of their cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly improved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?
Solstice, I coudn't have said it better - that's why I went out and ordered an S4... But I'm sure that I'll be back at some point.
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  #47  
Old 10-02-2010, 03:11 AM
PoleApart PoleApart is offline
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I had a 530d for 4 years and the F10 for 3 months. In one word the F10 is... progress. Those looking for the E60 experience will probably find it in the next 3 series. I loved my E60 but am not looking back and prefer the F10 even though I have less kit on it.

pharding - question to you - Was it by any chance you and your family that I ran into at a gas station in a town in Tuscany (Poggibonsi?) in Italy around July 16-17? Same car as in your sig, same colour, Euro delivery plates and I chatted a bit with one of the passengers who was surprised that I figured out that you were on a Euro Delivery fun drive. We were in 2-3 Ferraris on plates from various European countries.
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  #48  
Old 10-02-2010, 12:10 PM
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About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."
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  #49  
Old 10-02-2010, 01:08 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by DXK View Post
About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."
This is interesting. Some people on this blog have felt the same way when they first get the car. Then after some time they get used to it. We'll have to wait and see what people think. It is possible that C&D reviewers feel this way because it is so different from what they are used to and they only drive the car for a very short period of time. My 550i xDrive will have different steering, ie hydralic and not electric, so hopefully I won't have any problems.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:11 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXK View Post
About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."
Sounds like their car had a "toe-out" problem, that could easily been tuned. My E60 did not have any of those issues. The F10s problem is imo much more severe since I don't think just simple adjustments are needed to cure the ever present numbness.

Last edited by solstice; 10-02-2010 at 01:18 PM.
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