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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #476  
Old 03-15-2012, 04:04 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Prices still consistently around $4.59 for diesel in North Bay. Only change is premium has moved from $4.39 to upwards of $4.89. Still don't understand why diesel is so expensive in bay area but feel bad for gassers that are really feeling the pinch lately.
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Diesel has been consistently $.30-.40 more than premium. If you go back in this thread you can see the prices I referenced a while ago. While diesel has slowly inched upward the last month or so, it seems gas prices have just shot through the roof around here! It has been reassuring me in my decision to move from a 335i to a 335d.
Have you not considered that perhaps the diesel prices just have not caught up to the changes in market prices like the gasoline have? The first quote makes it sound like you think even though gasoline has hiked way up that the current price of diesel there is still over priced and should be much lower, which means even lower than gasoline. Then the second quote really just confirms the differences in fuel costs I have seen with diesel and premium gas since roughly July of 2004 until present day with just rare temp. swings in the market.
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  #477  
Old 03-15-2012, 09:36 AM
listerone listerone is offline
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Just passed my local diesel stop (Citgo) which was $4.03.........10 cents higher than their price for Premium.
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  #478  
Old 03-15-2012, 02:22 PM
firstbimmer firstbimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
Have you not considered that perhaps the diesel prices just have not caught up to the changes in market prices like the gasoline have? The first quote makes it sound like you think even though gasoline has hiked way up that the current price of diesel there is still over priced and should be much lower, which means even lower than gasoline. Then the second quote really just confirms the differences in fuel costs I have seen with diesel and premium gas since roughly July of 2004 until present day with just rare temp. swings in the market.
The original statement was referring to not understanding why diesel is consistently higher than gas in the bay area is when the rest of the country appears to have gas hover below premium before the recent gas spike. That's what I meant by saying I don't understand why diesel is so expensive in the bay area. It has not been until the recent spikes that premium and even regular has passed diesel at many stations around here. I don't expect a surge a in diesel price anytime soon unless in relation to all prices rising at the pump.
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  #479  
Old 03-15-2012, 03:25 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by firstbimmer View Post
The original statement was referring to not understanding why diesel is consistently higher than gas in the bay area is when the rest of the country appears to have gas hover below premium before the recent gas spike. That's what I meant by saying I don't understand why diesel is so expensive in the bay area. It has not been until the recent spikes that premium and even regular has passed diesel at many stations around here. I don't expect a surge a in diesel price anytime soon unless in relation to all prices rising at the pump.
Well like I said diesel here in Houston has consistently been higher than premium gas for 7-8 years now. Prior to the middle of 2004 diesel as at or below 87 octane prices and pretty consistently. So it is the norm I am used to. I know elsewhere in Texas is the same way but I do not travel via roads much outside the state. There are some rare exceptions it is not, one of those being a period 2011. So it is not just a Bay area thing that diesel has been higher than gas.

I run into people here in town that to this day insist diesel is cheaper than gas. I don't know where those thoughts come from because none of the posted prices on signs agrees with them.
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  #480  
Old 03-15-2012, 09:02 PM
831Doug 831Doug is offline
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In Santa Cruz, premium was higher than diesel today. Valero's price was $4.47 for premium vs. $4.29 for diesel this morning.

Near my office in San Jose, the Shell station was selling premium for $4.53 and diesel for $4.59. Seems crazy to see a 30 cent a gallon difference within 30 miles.
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  #481  
Old 03-16-2012, 12:25 PM
dnaer dnaer is offline
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My Admiral station just dropped the price from $3.89 to $3.79....hmmm. Filled it to the rim.
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  #482  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:18 PM
firstbimmer firstbimmer is offline
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Went to 76 station last night instead of chevron due to location and running on fumes. $4.53/gal. Premium was $4.55. Can't really compare with my normal station since this station is all by itself off the backroads.
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  #483  
Old 03-18-2012, 07:00 AM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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It just keeps going up and up.. $4.26 per gallon yesterday at my usual Shell station.
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  #484  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:14 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by firstbimmer View Post
The original statement was referring to not understanding why diesel is consistently higher than gas in the bay area is when the rest of the country appears to have gas hover below premium before the recent gas spike. That's what I meant by saying I don't understand why diesel is so expensive in the bay area. It has not been until the recent spikes that premium and even regular has passed diesel at many stations around here. I don't expect a surge a in diesel price anytime soon unless in relation to all prices rising at the pump.
I was talking to a friend today from California and works for in the oil industry. He said starting in 2012 new State restrictions went into effect for fuels. Said then end result is that they changed or added additives that results in more cost. He thought that it maybe has changed the offset between gas and diesel costs but was not certain on that.
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  #485  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:24 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Probably has a lot to do with it. Remember the (omnipotent, unaccountable) CARB sets the standards for automotive diesel fuel sold in the state -- the good news is that results in a higher Cetane number (about 44-45) which is pretty much what others get in "Premium" diesel fuel elsewhere. Otherwise, gas and diesel prices always seem higher in the Bay Area (and probably SoCal) than elsewhere in the state (except for freeway stations). And much higher (almost $1.00+) than in other parts of the country.

Last edited by UncleJ; 03-18-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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  #486  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:37 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Probably has a lot to do with it. Remember the (omnipotent, unaccountable) CARB sets the standards for automotive diesel fuel sold in the state -- the good news is that results in a higher Cetane number (about 44-45) which is pretty much what others get in "Premium" diesel fuel elsewhere. Otherwise, gas and diesel prices always seem higher in the Bay Area (and probably SoCal) than elsewhere in the state (except for freeway stations). And much higher (almost $1.00+) than in other parts of the country.
Yeah, he just was not sure though if any changes went into effect for diesel. He knew that gasoline went up because of changes, so speculated that perhaps has caused a different offset between gas and diesel. From everything I have learned over the past few years it does seem that diesel in California would be something I'd never worry about due to CARB. Not sure if fuels sold in the states that adopted CARB would be of the same sort of similar caliber or not though.
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  #487  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:37 AM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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The price of diesel is probably never going to go back to "equals regular gas prices". Some investment newsletters tout diesel futures as an investment hedge as if it were better than gold. The CEO of Valero believes that world-wide demand for diesel will triple over the next couple of years as the economies and diesel-thirst of countries like China, India, and some in South America continue to grow (they, and the rest of the world, have long known what we only recently figured out - - modern diesels make great cars - - meanwhile, the U.S., not so much). The number one export of the U.S. last year was oil and appprox 83% of that was exported as diesel. I read that much of eu ulsd diesel comes from American refineries because we have more that are capable of refining the ulsd diesel than Europe. Keystone XL pipeline is the biggest con of all. The sole reason TransCanada wants to build the XL pipeline is in order to get the crude to American refineries in the Gulf (mainly Valero's) that are capable of turning the very heavy "tar sands" oil into useable transportation fuel. The refineries in the pipeline terminus are in a Foreign Trade Zone which means no custom's duties or State and Fed taxes as long as the product is exported! And those refineries are configured to refine middle distillates (diesel and jet fuel). The XL pipeline, if it's ever built, will be a diesel export pipeline. I read in the Washington Post not long ago that John Boehner (in his 2010 financial disclosures) has invested $50k in each of the six companies contracted to receive product from the pipeline (plus he invested in the company that will make the pipeline's pumping controls). All of the oil companies in question are foreign owned except Valero and Valero have said openly in investment presentations that they will export all of their share as diesel to China and South America. Just sayin.

Last edited by m6pwr; 03-18-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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  #488  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:44 AM
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EYE4SPEED EYE4SPEED is offline
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I am happy to report that the Shell station in Holland, MI had diesel at $4.09 versus $4.23 for premium. Biggest gap I have seen in our favor.
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  #489  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:49 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
The price of diesel is probably never going to go back to "equals regular gas prices". Some investment newsletters tout diesel futures as an investment hedge as if it were better than gold. The CEO of Valero believes that world-wide demand for diesel will triple over the next couple of years as the economies and diesel-thirst of countries like China, India, and some in South America continue to grow (they, and the rest of the world, have long known what we only recently figured out - - modern diesels make great cars - - meanwhile, the U.S., not so much). The number one export of the U.S. last year was oil and appprox 83% of that was exported as diesel. I read that much of eu ulsd diesel comes from American refineries because we have more that are capable of refining the ulsd diesel than Europe. Keystone XL pipeline is the biggest con of all. The sole reason TransCanada wants to build the XL pipeline is in order to get the crude to American refineries in the Gulf (mainly Valero's) that are capable of turning the very heavy "tar sands" oil into useable transportation fuel. The refineries in the pipeline terminus are in a Foreign Trade Zone which means no custom's duties or State and Fed taxes as long as the product is exported! And those refineries are configured to refine middle distillates (diesel and jet fuel). The XL pipeline, if it's ever built, will be a diesel export pipeline. I read in the Washington Post not long ago that John Boehner (in his 2010 financial disclosures) has invested $50k in each of the six companies contracted to receive product from the pipeline (plus he invested in the company that will make the pipeline's pumping controls). All of the oil companies in question are foreign owned except Valero and they have said openly in investment presentations that they will export all of their share as diesel to China and South America. Just sayin.
I do not understand why anyone would ever expect diesel to be back to regular gas prices, I assume of course you mean 87 octane. As I have pointed out repeatedly, in this region it has not been there since middle of 2004 and that is a long time to be expecting it still to go back. I remember this change in pricing extremely well because prior to that I tracked it for almost 2 years as I debated if I wanted to go back into a diesel or back into a gas truck. A big part of my decision was the cost of the fuels, I opted to get a truck with less "nice stuff" and diesel powered since figured fuel is at or below 87 octane gas and I should net a little bit better mpg, so in the long run should be less money. Matter of fact I even compared things to the Accord we owned and it actually was cheaper to drive a diesel truck than the Accord if only factoring in fuel costs.

As far as diesel being a big export that is no new news right there. I know a number of people who got into the biodiesel business and all of their product is exported to Europe due to getting paid far more than any State based business is willing to pay. Then very rarely sometimes diesel has to get imported into the States on a scale big enough to effect price at the pump, for example the huge spike in diesel costs after either hurricane Rite or maybe it was Katrina.

Is the comment about John Boehner's investment supposed to be added fuel to start some sort of political biased discussion in a fuel thread? Guess I just don't understand what it matters in what he invests in or not. Is he some sort of investment guru that we should all follow and base our portfolios off of?
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  #490  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:58 AM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
Yeah, he just was not sure though if any changes went into effect for diesel. He knew that gasoline went up because of changes, so speculated that perhaps has caused a different offset between gas and diesel. From everything I have learned over the past few years it does seem that diesel in California would be something I'd never worry about due to CARB. Not sure if fuels sold in the states that adopted CARB would be of the same sort of similar caliber or not though.
There is a diesel quality council of some sort (can't remember the link) that rates the quality of the top 100 diesel-using countries in the world. USA ranks 34th (just ahead of or behind South Korea - - can't remember) in diesel quality. Lubricity additives is one of the quality attributes. 5% biomass is considered a plus in this regard. I didn't read the full report - - only the news release about it. IIRC Sweden is close to first with virtually 0 ppm sulphur. I didn't see exact ranking but I think Mexico's ulsd may be as good if not better than U.S. although service stations dispensing the ulsd not as prevalent as in U.S.
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  #491  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:20 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
There is a diesel quality council of some sort (can't remember the link) that rates the quality of the top 100 diesel-using countries in the world. USA ranks 34th (just ahead of or behind South Korea - - can't remember) in diesel quality. Lubricity additives is one of the quality attributes. 5% biomass is considered a plus in this regard. I didn't read the full report - - only the news release about it. IIRC Sweden is close to first with virtually 0 ppm sulphur. I didn't see exact ranking but I think Mexico's ulsd may be as good if not better than U.S. although service stations dispensing the ulsd not as prevalent as in U.S.
What you quoted was me talking about fuel quality changes specific to Califrnia. How does any of what you replied with apply to that?
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  #492  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:49 AM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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What you quoted was me talking about fuel quality changes specific to Califrnia. How does any of what you replied with apply to that?
Sorry, didn't mean to step on your post. Only meant to add a comment re diesel quality.
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  #493  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:52 AM
bubear99 bubear99 is offline
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$3.84 today in Lubbock, TX.
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  #494  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Sorry, didn't mean to step on your post. Only meant to add a comment re diesel quality.
No worries. Thought you were maybe leading into something and had no clue what it could be.
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  #495  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:20 PM
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Diesel at $4.07 in Fort Lauderdale Area.

Regular is running $3.87.
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  #496  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:51 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
The price of diesel is probably never going to go back to "equals regular gas prices". Some investment newsletters tout diesel futures as an investment hedge as if it were better than gold. The CEO of Valero believes that world-wide demand for diesel will triple over the next couple of years as the economies and diesel-thirst of countries like China, India, and some in South America continue to grow (they, and the rest of the world, have long known what we only recently figured out - - modern diesels make great cars - - meanwhile, the U.S., not so much). The number one export of the U.S. last year was oil and appprox 83% of that was exported as diesel. I read that much of eu ulsd diesel comes from American refineries because we have more that are capable of refining the ulsd diesel than Europe. Keystone XL pipeline is the biggest con of all. The sole reason TransCanada wants to build the XL pipeline is in order to get the crude to American refineries in the Gulf (mainly Valero's) that are capable of turning the very heavy "tar sands" oil into useable transportation fuel. The refineries in the pipeline terminus are in a Foreign Trade Zone which means no custom's duties or State and Fed taxes as long as the product is exported! And those refineries are configured to refine middle distillates (diesel and jet fuel). The XL pipeline, if it's ever built, will be a diesel export pipeline. I read in the Washington Post not long ago that John Boehner (in his 2010 financial disclosures) has invested $50k in each of the six companies contracted to receive product from the pipeline (plus he invested in the company that will make the pipeline's pumping controls). All of the oil companies in question are foreign owned except Valero and Valero have said openly in investment presentations that they will export all of their share as diesel to China and South America. Just sayin.
Keystone XL is all about export markets for Canadian tar sands crude production. There will be no impact on U.S. fuel prices from Keystone, unless Keystone acts to reduce international demand for other domestic refined products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
I do not understand why anyone would ever expect diesel to be back to regular gas prices, I assume of course you mean 87 octane. As I have pointed out repeatedly, in this region it has not been there since middle of 2004 and that is a long time to be expecting it still to go back. I remember this change in pricing extremely well because prior to that I tracked it for almost 2 years as I debated if I wanted to go back into a diesel or back into a gas truck. A big part of my decision was the cost of the fuels, I opted to get a truck with less "nice stuff" and diesel powered since figured fuel is at or below 87 octane gas and I should net a little bit better mpg, so in the long run should be less money. Matter of fact I even compared things to the Accord we owned and it actually was cheaper to drive a diesel truck than the Accord if only factoring in fuel costs.

As far as diesel being a big export that is no new news right there. I know a number of people who got into the biodiesel business and all of their product is exported to Europe due to getting paid far more than any State based business is willing to pay. Then very rarely sometimes diesel has to get imported into the States on a scale big enough to effect price at the pump, for example the huge spike in diesel costs after either hurricane Rite or maybe it was Katrina.

Is the comment about John Boehner's investment supposed to be added fuel to start some sort of political biased discussion in a fuel thread? Guess I just don't understand what it matters in what he invests in or not. Is he some sort of investment guru that we should all follow and base our portfolios off of?
In this neck of the woods, diesel prices dropped from approx. $0.30 higher than premium gas prices in Spring of 2008 (Chevron premium gas was around $4.50, Chevron diesel was pushing $4.85 during Memorial Day 2008 weekend). On the heels of Lehman BK and the DOW dropping 700 points in a day, gas and diesel traders bailed. Chevron 87 octane gas dropped to $1.80 and Chevron diesel fell to $1.70 territory. I can understand how the bottom would drop out of the price given a world-wide recession.

Fast forward to the present. For about the past 2 1/2 to 3 years, Chevron diesel has been about $0.10 to $0.30 higher than Chevron premium gas. Now Chevron diesel is selling for about mid-way between Chevron mid-grade (89 octane) and premium gas pricing. If diesel is being exported, I would have thought that the mark-up over premium gas would have remained constant (China certainly isn't cutting its consumption of diesel; same for India).

What gives?

BTW, Boehner is doing what a number of politicians in both parties have done for years - trade on inside information (they are exempt from the ban on trading on inside information). The time is overdue for a ban on politicians trading on inside information.
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  #497  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:32 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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Agree re Congress using insider info (maybe Pelosi got more, who knows). Don't know about gas over diesel prices in US with recent price hikes. Maybe speculation?
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  #498  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:40 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
Fast forward to the present. For about the past 2 1/2 to 3 years, Chevron diesel has been about $0.10 to $0.30 higher than Chevron premium gas. Now Chevron diesel is selling for about mid-way between Chevron mid-grade (89 octane) and premium gas pricing. If diesel is being exported, I would have thought that the mark-up over premium gas would have remained constant (China certainly isn't cutting its consumption of diesel; same for India).

What gives?
That is what I was speculating on a few of my posts back. As I said there I was driving a friend back to the airport today and this subject came up because he was surprised to see one station that has diesel less than 89 octane. He made mentioning that in California starting in 2012 that they have had to change and/or add different additives to gasoline to meet new CARB mandates and how that was bringing up the cost of gasoline. He thought that those mandates were not adding any additional costs to diesel and that perhaps the offset between the two prices is changing to match something similar to what we saw on the station here as we passed it. The whole subject came up though because he was certain it was a California thing so was surprised to see an offset change here like that. It probably was just a bad example to look at though because they had diesel for 3.86 which is a good 13 cents less than any station around there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
Don't know about gas over diesel prices in US with recent price hikes. Maybe speculation?
Speculation is always a part of it. A very warm winter overall is probably a part of the diesel pricing. Refineries already planned to do shut downs for maintenance is a part of it. Refineries that closed or are closing for business is a part of it. I am sure the list can go on and on.
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  #499  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:33 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
That is what I was speculating on a few of my posts back. As I said there I was driving a friend back to the airport today and this subject came up because he was surprised to see one station that has diesel less than 89 octane. He made mentioning that in California starting in 2012 that they have had to change and/or add different additives to gasoline to meet new CARB mandates and how that was bringing up the cost of gasoline. He thought that those mandates were not adding any additional costs to diesel and that perhaps the offset between the two prices is changing to match something similar to what we saw on the station here as we passed it. The whole subject came up though because he was certain it was a California thing so was surprised to see an offset change here like that. It probably was just a bad example to look at though because they had diesel for 3.86 which is a good 13 cents less than any station around there.
Any link? If there is a requirement for new additives to gas, that could explain the difference.

Quote:
Speculation is always a part of it. A very warm winter overall is probably a part of the diesel pricing. Refineries already planned to do shut downs for maintenance is a part of it. Refineries that closed or are closing for business is a part of it. I am sure the list can go on and on.
If it were speculation, there would seem to be across-the-board price increase.
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  #500  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:41 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Any link? If there is a requirement for new additives to gas, that could explain the difference.


If it were speculation, there would seem to be across-the-board price increase.
I will see if he can get me anything.

As far as speculation, I am seeing basically an across the board price increase just not as drastic with diesel. I think it would depend on what the people were generally speculating on.
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Last edited by Snipe656; 03-19-2012 at 11:41 AM. Reason: engrish confuses me
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