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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:07 AM
ccbbrb ccbbrb is offline
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X-drive steering vs Rear wheel steering question

Can someone explain the difference between Electic steering and hydrolic steering? Does the x-drive have hydrolic and the rear-wheel have electric? Do the complaints on the steering feel extend to hydrolic steering too, or is it just a problem with electric? Will a sport model with DHP be better steering feel-wise?
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:14 AM
melor melor is offline
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
This topic is a big deal and if BMW Enthusiasts want to to continue to talk about here so be it. If someone doesn't want to participate for whatever reason so be it.
I have to agree with this comment. If a thread was only allowed to be created once for any given subject, this board would crawl to a halt. There are some threads I won't open for lack of continued interest, but this is not one of them.

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  #28  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:49 AM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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I liked the steering and it did feel BMW like to me at higher speeds, but not at lower speeds. And I'm fine with that.

One thing I didn't get a chance to check though - does the assist vary depending on the dynamic mode? I.e. is it stiffer in sport mode than in comfort mode? If implemented like at Lexus there should be a dramatic difference between sport mode and comfort mode in the steering feel.
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:32 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Sport mode steering is firmer than normal which is firmer than comfort.
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
And my point was that this topic has been discussed to death already in case it wasn't clear the first time around. I would love to hear what additional value this thread brings besides rehashing the same points over and over.
Easy enough to unsubscribe from it then. I haven't, because I find it interesting to see the way the steering is polarizing folks - similar to the multiple threads on iDrive and Bangle's flame surfacing when the E60 was introduced. There were many who felt that those two "blasphemous" changes would be the ruination of BMW. Obviously they weren't and I doubt the F10's steering (love it or hate it) will kill of the company either.

And I do learn useful things here - for example, I would not have realized that the x-Drive F10's have hydraulic steering, vs. the RWD F10's with electric steering. (Just like the 6 cylinder E39's had rack and pinion, while the 545 / 550 had worm and gear).

While I find many threads useless ("Which color should I get?" "DCT vs. 6MT?") this one continues to interest me. When it doesn't, I will unsubscribe.
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  #31  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:56 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
Sport mode steering is firmer than normal which is firmer than comfort.
Are you sure there are three steering modes or just two? One for comfort and normal and one for sport and sport plus. I'm need to drive my car more so see if I can tell a difference.
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2010, 09:57 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Are you sure there are three steering modes or just two? One for comfort and normal and one for sport and sport plus. I'm need to drive my car more so see if I can tell a difference.
Just two, Comfort only adjusts the dampening.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post

And I do learn useful things here - for example, I would not have realized that the x-Drive F10's have hydraulic steering, vs. the RWD F10's with electric steering. .
Is this true? I had not heard that before.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:12 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccbbrb View Post
Can someone explain the difference between Electic steering and hydrolic steering? Does the x-drive have hydrolic and the rear-wheel have electric? Do the complaints on the steering feel extend to hydrolic steering too, or is it just a problem with electric? Will a sport model with DHP be better steering feel-wise?
Hydraulic power steering uses a hydraulic rams to act upon the rack.

Electric power steering uses an electric motor on the rack or the column.

The problem is that depending on the way the system is set up, there can be several things that are problematic. First, there can be more components between you and the rack, dampening out the minor movements you feel the road providing. Second, the method of assist can feel artificial as it is a different type than you're used to if you're used to hydraulic systems.

The benefit of electric systems is efficiency. It takes a decent chunk of engine power to run the hydraulic pump. There are hybrid systems called electro-hydraulic where the pump that powers the assist is electrically driven, not mechanically driven. This is somewhat more efficient, but still has a lot of parts and consumes a bunch of juice.

On the plus side, with a pure electric system, it's a lot easier to "tune" the feel of the system via computers, rather than by changing components, to it is a lot more likely to say BMW could do something about it. And that it would be able to be retroactively applied. But that's just whistling in the dark.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:40 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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Does the hydraulic system offer the sports feel, while the std electric offer the more dull watered down feel that car and driver speaks of? Has anyone noticed a difference in back to back driving?
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  #36  
Old 10-10-2010, 02:39 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Brand image is extremely important for sales of high end cars, I suspect more so than the majoirty of buyers actually being able to recognize and appreciate the virtues that the image is based on. I think bmw is making a big mistake if they take a "wait and see" approach to the steering in the F10. Once the brand image takes a hit it's not easy to recover. It's one of those things that takes a long time to build but is relatively quickly lost. Toyota is a good example. It's brand image is anchored in reliability. One problem with the accelerator and years of hard work is immediately jeopardized. A taut communicative chassi and steering are core parts of bmw's brand image and it seems like a huge gamble to mess with that.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2010, 03:12 PM
nealh nealh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
Actually I agree with Rich on this one. The F10 steers better in Sport Mode in a F10 with DHP and IAS. The F10 steers 98% as good as my 2008 550i E60 with the M-sport package when it is at 50+ as abmwc pointed out. However I believe that BMW will implement a software upgrade, much like they with the E60. I am sure that the steering will be improved beyond the software fix, but when?
So DHP without IAS has a less communicative feel with the road? I thought it was the other way.

Hmm...My 650i lease is up in Jan. I have no idea what I am going to do. I love it but refuse to buy out, but the F10 has some kinks.

535i or 535ix?? I am avoiding the 550i for guilt over gas consumption.
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  #38  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:00 PM
nealh nealh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Brand image is extremely important for sales of high end cars, I suspect more so than the majoirty of buyers actually being able to recognize and appreciate the virtues that the image is based on. I think bmw is making a big mistake if they take a "wait and see" approach to the steering in the F10. Once the brand image takes a hit it's not easy to recover. It's one of those things that takes a long time to build but is relatively quickly lost. Toyota is a good example. It's brand image is anchored in reliability. One problem with the accelerator and years of hard work is immediately jeopardized. A taut communicative chassi and steering are core parts of bmw's brand image and it seems like a huge gamble to mess with that.
So true remember the Transmission issue on the Audi5000..it killed them.

The 5 series has always benn their bread n butter. Awesome overall car that handles like a sports car with a fantastic ride as well.
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2010, 05:41 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Brand image is extremely important for sales of high end cars, I suspect more so than the majoirty of buyers actually being able to recognize and appreciate the virtues that the image is based on. I think bmw is making a big mistake if they take a "wait and see" approach to the steering in the F10. Once the brand image takes a hit it's not easy to recover. It's one of those things that takes a long time to build but is relatively quickly lost. Toyota is a good example. It's brand image is anchored in reliability. One problem with the accelerator and years of hard work is immediately jeopardized. A taut communicative chassi and steering are core parts of bmw's brand image and it seems like a huge gamble to mess with that.
I think that this is a bunch of hooey, to be honest. I've driven in and been involved with BMW since 1985. The last BMW in my family was a 2001 525i that finally ate it's head because of chronic overheating. After that, I kind of hopped off the BMW train. I read about the newer cars getting fat, getting overly complicated. I read of issues with the N54 wastegates and HPFP's. Finally I read about the F10's poor steering. BMW is losing the plot, I thought.

Then I drove the F10 and thought...what the hell is everyone talking about? This machine kicks a@@!!!

You lose brand image by having issues like Toyota did, or having issues with the HPFP. Not by a group of jurno's saying that the car lost some steering feel.

Last edited by Needsdecaf; 10-10-2010 at 05:45 PM.
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  #40  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:34 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Maybe it's just me but I suspect that the verdict of the auto press "jurno's" on one of bmws trademarks have a bigger impact on the brand image than a guy called Needsdecaf on a forum that thinks it's "kicks a@@ss!!!" And we are not talking about a low volume expirement here, we're talking about bmws cash cow the funfer.

Last edited by solstice; 10-10-2010 at 06:38 PM.
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  #41  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:45 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Maybe it's just me but I suspect that the verdict of the auto press "jurno's" on one of bmws trademarks have a bigger impact on the brand image than a guy called Needsdecaf on a forum that thinks it's "kicks a@@ss!!!" And we are not talking about a low volume expirement here, we're talking about bmws cash cow the funfer.
Depends on whether your target demographic reads those mage. I'm sure the 17-year-olds out there have a lower opinion of the F10, but I don't know many 50-year-olds making north of $150,000/year who subscribe to C&D, R&T, MT or the like.

If the Robb Report, JAMA, The Economist or Barrons panned the F10 it might be different. And I think the mainline mags probably influence 3-Series buyers. F10? Not so much.
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:58 PM
x5 '08 x5 '08 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Depends on whether your target demographic reads those mage. I'm sure the 17-year-olds out there have a lower opinion of the F10, but I don't know many 50-year-olds making north of $150,000/year who subscribe to C&D, R&T, MT or the like.

If the Robb Report, JAMA, The Economist or Barrons panned the F10 it might be different. And I think the mainline mags probably influence 3-Series buyers. F10? Not so much.
On a seperate note, how do you like your M3 Conv? I am trying to decide between M3 conv and 535 M sport Xi. Two totally different cars but I'm not loving the F10 handling. I'm worried I will regret getting such a small car with such little storage in the M3 Conv.

Thoughts?
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:14 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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I don't really care about brand image, etc. I just know what I like. I do not like a numb/dead or even Lexus like feel.

BMW has probably done market research and determined that they will have more sales by changing the steering. That's fine. Certainly Lexus (for a marque started in 1990) has taken the US market by storm, obviously they are doing something right.

The problem, is that I consider myself an enthusiast, and I would like to have a more "sports" style steering rather than a more numb or dead feel. I guess the ultimate question is whether or not BMW really cares about my small group rather than the larger lexus/cadillac/buick crowd. It seems like the direction they are taking is less "sports" and more "ease/comfort".

If that is the direction that makes more profits, then they are doing something right for their owners/shareholders. It just isn't right for me! But I guess they will lose a few enthusiasts and probably gain some cadillac/lexus/buick buyers and they will do better perhaps. I hope they make changes however.

Last edited by sambb; 10-10-2010 at 07:16 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:28 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Are you sure there are three steering modes or just two? One for comfort and normal and one for sport and sport plus. I'm need to drive my car more so see if I can tell a difference.
There are four steering modes. I can definitely tell the difference, especially at 50+ mph.
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  #45  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:17 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Depends on whether your target demographic reads those mage. I'm sure the 17-year-olds out there have a lower opinion of the F10, but I don't know many 50-year-olds making north of $150,000/year who subscribe to C&D, R&T, MT or the like.

If the Robb Report, JAMA, The Economist or Barrons panned the F10 it might be different. And I think the mainline mags probably influence 3-Series buyers. F10? Not so much.
It's not just the mags. I would be surprised if for example Audi don't make sure the results of the comparos and a few carefully choosen quotes will appear in all kinds of mags, major airports, TV ads during demographically focused programs ( Golf torunaments, cnbc, BBC etc. ). The press can pretty much make or break any consumer product. These things usually finds it's way to the target audience one way or another. It's not something you can afford to ignore as a CEO.

Last edited by solstice; 10-10-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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  #46  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:23 PM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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I'm over 50 and subscribe to all of the above. And all of my friends, colleagues and clients ask for my opinion when they uy a new car...and they can all afford the F10 and its competitors. So one reader of the mags equals probably 20-30 purchases per year....
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  #47  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:56 PM
mujjuman mujjuman is offline
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I agree. I like my E46 steering better. The new steering is too smooth like Lexus


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  #48  
Old 10-10-2010, 10:10 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Plus I don't know where you get it that all 5 series drivers are 50+ I'm picking up my 550i in Munich for my 26 birthday and have several friends who are around my age and purchasing cars in this segment. To all the drivers that hate the steering I suggest waiting a few months for the new A6 the current one is much more of a "sports sedan" than the f10. I almost purchased the current iteration but it's weak v8 and the f10's superior looks and interior convinced me to deal with the poor steering and softer handling.
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  #49  
Old 10-11-2010, 03:46 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
There are four steering modes. I can definitely tell the difference, especially at 50+ mph.
I think there may be only two "modes", but both modes are speed sensitive and tighten up at higher speeds. This may feel like four modes. But that is a good thing.

I think one solution for BMW is to set up the car so that the steering effort has four settings that are independently adjusted from the suspension, transmission, and throttle settings. Then they can cater to people of multiple different tastes. I'm sure they will figure this out soon. They certainly got it right with only two modes on my 650i.
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  #50  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x5 '08 View Post
On a seperate note, how do you like your M3 Conv? I am trying to decide between M3 conv and 535 M sport Xi. Two totally different cars but I'm not loving the F10 handling. I'm worried I will regret getting such a small car with such little storage in the M3 Conv.

Thoughts?
Love the M3. Best car I have ever owned. BMW nailed it - handling, steering, clutch and braking feel; ride comfort; ergonomics; power; exhaust note; sound system; you name it. It gets a little tight in the back seat on those rare occasions I have 3 passengers, but it is not unbearable - much more usable than my 911 was.

With the top down you can put an "okay" amount of stuff in the trunk (2 duffel bags and a briefcase, or a week's worth of grocery shopping), but access is inconvenient as you have to raise the roof to get at it all. You can carry more with the top (and luggage partition) up. Most of the time, the rear seat back is folded flat and the wind deflector is up, and between the trunk and the rear seat area I can carry plenty. But if we go away as a family we take the X5.

There will "always" be competent sports sedans like the 535. However, the E9X M3 will likey be the last normally-aspirated M car ever. And you can't beat driving with the top down (the heated seats and "Convertible" setting on the climate control make top-down driving fine, even if it is only 60 degrees outside). If you can find a way to make it work, I say go for it.
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Current BMW's:
2014 535i MSport Space / Black, ZCW, ZDA, ZLP, ZLS, ZPP, H-K and 704
2014 328i Sport Wagon, Glacier / Black, ZSL, ZD2, ZD3, ZDH, ZLP, ZPP, ZTP, and H-K

Prior BMW's
2011 535ix MSport
2011 X5 35D
2008 ///M3 Vert
2008 X5 3.0
2007 X5 3.0
2006 X5 3.0
2006 550iA SP
2003 540iA M-Technic

Last edited by quackbury; 10-11-2010 at 04:39 AM.
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