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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 10-12-2010, 06:36 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot View Post
I fly for a living (yes, I'm still active duty, and appreciate your thanks), and I am certifiable aircraft buff, though I really have no desire to go flying in light aircraft and i loathe the airlines.
Since you're a B-1 driver, was the BUFF part a play on words?
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  #77  
Old 10-12-2010, 07:28 PM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot View Post
I much rather enjoy spending my free time and money on motorcycles and cars! I ride a ridiculously overpowered motorcycle for the same reason you drive a 6MT -- it's fun! I realize what solstice and others are saying about the perceived compromises; but feel is one thing, actual performance is another.. until we have full, independent track data we wont know if they truly sacrificed performance for the obvious additions of luxury that are in the new F10. That being said, the opinions of those who actually own the car (especially if you owned an E60 prior) are the ones of most value to me -- my 3 test drives in no way match your empirical data, and I look forward to your posts
For you as an individual (or me, or anyone else), does it really matter if a comparison to a prior model indicates anything? The question should be whether you like the car as it stands today, because that is the current reality. I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic. Will the car feel different to you if E60 owners tell you one way or another? I hate to say it, but many of them probably don't care for the F10 just because it is a new model. It took me several years to like the E60, it looked so bland to me, so "un-German", almost Japanese from the side. I finally liked it. The new F10 speaks BMW! the moment you see it, no question what brand it is. It always hurts a little when the car you own is superseded by a new model, and there's bound to be bias in owner reviews. Whatever, the new F10 is what it is, a highly advanced, very well behaved road car, in my opinion.
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  #78  
Old 10-12-2010, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Since you're a B-1 driver, was the BUFF part a play on words?
Oh yeah absolutely.. Big Ugly Fat F**ker

The B-1 is called the Lancer, but all the Aircrew call it the Bone.. for B-One.

Quote:
It's interesting that the "B-1 Pilot" made the observation about technology. I recall that many B-1s were crashed because pilots didn't trust the electronics that were guiding the plane and took over control...then crashed. The logical extension of B-1 Pilot's argument is the Google car (see Sunday's New York Times) that controls itself without human intervention. According to Google, it doubles highway capacity and is safer than human driving. But what would all of us on this board do? Sit in the car and pretend we're driving like our two year olds who sit in a fake car with a fake steering wheel and go "zoom-zoom"?
Ok, so not sure if you are trolling me here, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 1st off, there have not been many B-1 crashes -- there have been 6 to be exact. In only one could a person even remotely link it to the pilots 'not trusting' their instruments. The pilots punched off the automatic terrain following radar without guaranteeing they were clear, and hit a side mountain. Now these pilots were at 500 ft above the ground, going 540 knots (thats 610mph to you land-stranded types), it was night, and they were very low light conditions before NVGs were even used. The terrain following system basically creates a terrain trace on the ground and keeps the aircraft at a certain selected altitude from 200 - 2000 ft, in any condition to include zero visibility, while the pilots make left and right turns, clear for threats, and monitor a number of other systems and radios. It is speculated that they didnt trust the system.. but there isnt any full proof of this because they gave their lives training to defend this country.

Remember very simply that when a system fails in an aircraft, I cant flip on the hazards and pull to the side of the road. I regularly have to make decisions while moving at 9 miles a minute or faster... In order to help me a trust electronic, automated systems... but am a saying we should remove the man in the loop? Of course not, because the thinking man is who ultimately will best maximize the employment capabilities of the aircraft, and systems do fail from time to time. To name a few, I have had a fire on takeoff, compressor stallout of an engine over Iraq, hit by lightning in Afghanistan,and a major bird strike in the middle of West Texas -- of course there are many more, but in all these electric systems on the plane and the aviator in charge of flying it had to work in concert to bring the thing home and land. This isnt even mentioning surface to air missiles coming within 300 ft of my tail or AAA off my nose.

Do I trust and appreciate the value of technology and electronics? -- you're damn right I do. Do I applaud upgrades in technology, and understand at times it may takeaway from my direct control in order to provide greater benefit? -- yes. Will we be riding in automated cars and planes someday in the future? Sooner than you think... but I also know that on the leading edge of technology there are hiccups and systems that may not work as well as first advertised.. this doesn't mean their envisioning was wrong. Yes there will be systems that can drive our cars for us, but there will be a thinking man in the loop for a very long time.

/Rant and sorry for the hijack,

B-1


21 Mar 2003, Post Air Refueling over Iraq
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  #79  
Old 10-12-2010, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
For you as an individual (or me, or anyone else), does it really matter if a comparison to a prior model indicates anything? The question should be whether you like the car as it stands today, because that is the current reality. I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic. Will the car feel different to you if E60 owners tell you one way or another? I hate to say it, but many of them probably don't care for the F10 just because it is a new model. It took me several years to like the E60, it looked so bland to me, so "un-German", almost Japanese from the side. I finally liked it. The new F10 speaks BMW! the moment you see it, no question what brand it is. It always hurts a little when the car you own is superseded by a new model, and there's bound to be bias in owner reviews. Whatever, the new F10 is what it is, a highly advanced, very well behaved road car, in my opinion.
Actually I tend to agree with you on this as well... but if people are going to make comparisons, I prefer them to have operational experience with the two variables. I also really like the looks and sizing of the F10... for me its not a matter of if I buy one, but when, and I like reading the learned opinions of those on this board who can help me understand the small differences, such that I can best shape my own opinion.
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  #80  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:02 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot View Post
I think in the end it will be the same argument as those who feel the need to run the clutch and stick-shift themselves -- as technology supersedes human capability, nostalgia is often misconstrued as better performance.
++1 imo some see the technology, and they get all the "enthusiasm" in them worked up, and others follow the "leaders" to belittle the technology cos it's only popular for an "enthusiast" to do so. A poor follower of the latter -

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/10/12/vi...sumer-reports/

Check out the video at 2:05, the phrases "not as fun" to drive and lacks "on-center feel" are "popular", not initially though. But this guy says the lack of on-center feel is particularly evident when the F10 is at its limits. This seems to be contrary to the view that the lack of on-center feel is when the F10 is going straight, but fine when the f10 is at its limits/twisties etc?

---------------------------------

Quote "While there is still direct mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the drive wheels, an electric motor is used to assist steering on demand. As the electric motor kicks in, it seems to distort feedback through the wheel. Since the electric motor is only used when steering input is added, there is less energy consumed verses a conventional hydraulic steering assist setup, but this energy savings comes at a high price. On center feel is numb and leaves you guessing most of the time. Once the wheel is turned beyond 5 degrees, more information is progressively fed through the wheel, but still not in the raw, mechanical fashion we so adore. Road undulations are felt through the wheel, but there is definitely a middleman in this equation. While efficient electronic systems do have their place, it seems that this steering technology has evolved too far. Lets go back one evolutionary step and restore the pure, honest, steering feel of 5 series past."

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/08/06/bm...f-the-fittest/

---------------------------

There are people (including some who haven't even tested the F10) who jump on the bandwagon, but not sure what's in it - is it that the steering is too light/lexusfied (but the steering is weightier in sport mode, and generally reviews are positive about the weight) vs numb on center (but many don't know what is the meaning of numb on center eg the above), numb generally (please buy a 3 series if one is comparing the F10 to a E46 or E90, or better still a Lotus).

Last edited by bm323; 10-12-2010 at 08:24 PM.
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  #81  
Old 10-15-2010, 07:29 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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There is a lot of technical points here, but car and driver AND consumer reports agree on this issue: the steering is terrible.
Of course, if one is a mainstream driver (ie lexus, lincoln, caddy) then you will like the steering.
It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel.
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  #82  
Old 10-15-2010, 08:08 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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"It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel."
I experienced this first hand today. A collegue of mine bought his wife a 328 and when we briefly discussed it he told me: "Man is that steering heavy, it's supposed to be a luxuary car, it should not require such effort to drive it. I kept quite...
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  #83  
Old 10-15-2010, 08:30 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
"It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel."
I experienced this first hand today. A collegue of mine bought his wife a 328 and when we briefly discussed it he told me: "Man is that steering heavy, it's supposed to be a luxuary car, it should not require such effort to drive it. I kept quite...
A heavier steering does not mean it's more precise or connected.

Btw, have you recently tested against other F10s to verify whether there's anything wrong with your car?

Last edited by bm323; 10-15-2010 at 08:45 PM.
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  #84  
Old 10-15-2010, 08:32 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by sambb View Post
There is a lot of technical points here, but car and driver AND consumer reports agree on this issue: the steering is terrible.
Of course, if one is a mainstream driver (ie lexus, lincoln, caddy) then you will like the steering.
It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel.
Check and you'll see they don't agree http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost...53&postcount=1

As far as I can recall, hardly any, if at all say, that the steering is Lexus-like.
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  #85  
Old 10-16-2010, 02:54 AM
sambb sambb is offline
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actually, here is the relevant link

Correct, it is described as "SPOOKY" by car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

BMW is going for the lexus/cadillac/buick market with the 5, and why shouldn't they? After all, lexus sells a lot of cars... it just isn't right for what i want... But I say, if you like it, go for it.

Last edited by sambb; 10-16-2010 at 02:57 AM.
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  #86  
Old 10-16-2010, 08:46 AM
richschneid richschneid is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Correct, it is described as "SPOOKY" by car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

BMW is going for the lexus/cadillac/buick market with the 5, and why shouldn't they? After all, lexus sells a lot of cars... it just isn't right for what i want... But I say, if you like it, go for it.
I guess that's the point of the DHP. In COMFORT and NORMAL mode it competes with Lexus and Cadillac. In SPORT mode it's a BMW and it competes with AUDI and MB. That's why the switch is right by your right hand, it's so easy to switch from one to the other, which I do all the time depending on how I feel and the driving conditions.

BTW, I test drove a RWD 550i last summer. I don't recall much of a difference in feel between the electric steering on the RWD and the hydralic steering on my 550i xDrive.

Also, these guys at C&D an Consumer's do not drive the cars every day for months on end. Bimmers seem to grow on you over time. Consumer's complained about the controls as well. That's because they don't have time to fully learn them and understand the amazing intelligence and driver friendliness of them once you get used to using them. I am just amazed as to how easy to use and driver friendly the controls and ergonomics are in my new car. Puts my 650i to shame.
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Last edited by richschneid; 10-16-2010 at 08:50 AM.
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  #87  
Old 10-16-2010, 10:05 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Did Car and Driver have DHP or the standard version? IAS or the the standard version?
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  #88  
Old 10-16-2010, 11:26 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Correct, it is described as "SPOOKY" by car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

BMW is going for the lexus/cadillac/buick market with the 5, and why shouldn't they? After all, lexus sells a lot of cars... it just isn't right for what i want... But I say, if you like it, go for it.
I'll tell you it's bull s---

If you know your readings check out
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 17.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 35.9 sec
Street start, 560 mph: 7.0 sec
Standing -mile: 14.9 sec @ 94 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 151 mph
Braking, 700 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g

And your E60 with SP will smell the dust if you can of the F10 550i

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=32

Last edited by bm323; 10-16-2010 at 11:47 AM.
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  #89  
Old 10-16-2010, 05:58 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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For me, the drag race times are just not as important as feel. I am not excited about numbness, etc. I have driven a few 5s. Again, i have no problem with the people who like the numb and dead feel. It will certainly sell to the masses! I am more interested in an "enthusiast" feel. If you look back at the previous generation of BMW, there was a steering issue in the past. Posts here lauded BMW... but when BMW changed the steering to more of an enthusiast feel, they kept it that way...

So BMW has made steering mistakes in the past. For me, the current steering is a mistake, but I am hopeful that BMW will return to the enthusiast roots I desire for a 5 series. If they don't, however, I understand, as there is a market for the more numb feel. It is great for some drivers and not for others. It just depends on what one is looking for. I am sure that there are several people here who like the steering. I bet my mother would like it too. That is great, I have no problem with it. To each his/her own. Some people like black cars, and others like white. Some people want satellite radio, and others dont. Some people like a precise enthusiast feel, others like the more mainstream feel that several car companies like lexus have offered. I think it is great that we have a choice - it is not about the steering being better overall - for some it is better this way, and for others it isnt. It is a simple preference. I lean more to the car and driver article after testing.

When Car and driver lauds a BMW, the story is quoted here. There is nothing wrong with agreeing or disagreeing with their testing. I think their description of the "spooky steering" is rather accurate from my experience, but I would not at all be upset if you like it! Everyone has to find what works for them. I am hoping they decide to fix (change) it.

Best of luck no matter what you do.

Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:

Spooky Steering

Unfortunately, the 528i shares with the rest of the 5-series its new electric power steering. Although weighty, the setup feels artificial and provides zero feedback. Its imperturbable tracking and smooth feel will likely endear it to more-laid-back buyers, but we consider this a frightening departure from what has made BMW great. Fishing in the mainstream may be profitable, but it nets the kind of buyers who painted Toyota as an unapologetic killing machine.


The electric power steering is something all 5-series buyers have to live with, but the 528i's only other shortcoming-not being a rocket-isn't. Were we deciding to spend $45,000 for the 528 or $50,000 for the 535, we'd be tempted to jump to the more powerful car. (Actually, were it the test car in question, we'd pare a few items from the $13,325 pile of options and spend that money on the engine upgrade instead.) But it's easier to be cavalier with money when you're writing imaginary checks. For customers spending real money and finding the difference harder to swallow, as well as those attracted by its more affordable lease rates, the 528i is a fine and capable alternative to the 535i.

Last edited by sambb; 10-16-2010 at 06:06 PM.
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  #90  
Old 10-16-2010, 07:18 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
I am more interested in an "enthusiast" feel.
I see this 'enthusiast' argument thrown around as the end all argument way too many times, so how does one become an enthusiast?

Is there a card in a cereal box? More likely a multi-year subscription to some car magazine so that when someone argues with you, you simply state, "I'm an enthusiast, see what -insertFavoriteMag- says."

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:
Well here's something else C&D wrote:

Quote:
At 100-plus-mph speeds on the highway, the steering borders on scary light in its regular setting. It's certainly accurate, however, and the sport setting clears up much of the lightness problem, but it still has a larger-than-we'd-like dead spot on-center and could use even more heft, in our opinion. Worse is that the level of tingly, tactile feedback coming through that thick-rimmed wheel seems to be dialed back a bit compared with the last M3 or even a current-gen 328i or 335i.
Yep, that's C&D's first opinion of the current M3.

If you prefer something, fine. If you don't like something, fine. Do you really need a magazine to tell you what you like?

So sad.
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  #91  
Old 10-16-2010, 07:26 PM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:

The electric power steering is something all 5-series buyers have to live with, but the 528i's only other shortcoming-not being a rocket-isn't. Were we deciding to spend $45,000 for the 528 or $50,000 for the 535, we'd be tempted to jump to the more powerful car. (Actually, were it the test car in question, we'd pare a few items from the $13,325 pile of options and spend that money on the engine upgrade instead.) But it's easier to be cavalier with money when you're writing imaginary checks. For customers spending real money and finding the difference harder to swallow, as well as those attracted by its more affordable lease rates, the 528i is a fine and capable alternative to the 535i.
Of course, I'm sure they said similar things about the E60 528i in comarison to the E60 535i. I've read C&D for going on 25 years. I usually find their articles informative and consistent. Of course I like when they like the car I'm planning to buy. But I've noticed a difference in the last several years and I think it has to do with a new group of writers and editors. They're no longer consistent and they pick on very small issues, IMO. In an early F10 535i report they complained the steering was too heavy. Then later in the full report they said too light. OK, maybe different drivers were reporting, but still, there has to be some baseline. Now they're saying the 528i isn't a rocket, well, we all know that don't we? Nothing new here. Now E60 folks will latch on to this latest statement and consider the F10 528i "bad". The new one probably performs better than the E60 and as I said, I'm sure in previous comparisons, the old 528i was no rocket either. To all the E60 fanboys out there, just live with an F10 for a week or so and then pass judgment rather than repeating over and over the C&D quotes.
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  #92  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:44 AM
sambb sambb is offline
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I think it comes down to, again, whether or not one likes the more numb feel vs the more the precise steering feel. There are plenty of those who are looking for a lexus/buick feel with a BMW badge, and I think BMW has done a great job with catering to that group, even here on bimmerfest. I am glad they are happy with the result. I just hope that BMW listens to some of the reviews about steering (which they have changed in the past as well when they made a mistake). Nevertheless, there probably a large market for the numb feel, as evidenced in the people who like the f10 steering. Enthusiasts may want something different.
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  #93  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:01 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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If BMW sticks with a numb feel on the steering or other performance compromise to appeal to the Lexus crowd or the Chinese crowd, then I am done with BMW and I will shift over to Audi or Porsche. However I believe that this stuff will be fixed by BMW as they have done in the past.
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Last edited by pharding; 10-17-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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  #94  
Old 10-17-2010, 09:43 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
I think it comes down to, again, whether or not one likes the more numb feel vs the more the precise steering feel.
The F10's steering is as precise as my E90. And you are saying that the 7 series 2007-8's steering is superior to the F10's?? Your views on the steering is clearly opposite mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Hello, I am a 335i owner, and a former 5 series owner of mult 5 series. I need to get a larger car than my 335i coupe which is great. I was sold on the new 5 series - until i drove it and experienced really terrible steering - car and driver has commented extensively about it, and I concur it is really a different place then I want to go.

I am thus considering a 7 series, 2007-8, after I saw that CPO examples are pretty well priced in the low 40s. That is amazing for cars with 30k miles!

So, some general questions (i dont want a turbo charged engine, so newer 7s are a little out of the question).

How reliable is the 5 liter v8
What can I realistically expect for mileage in a 75% highway (75 mph) and 25% city driving environment?

Which options are problematic?

How easily damaged are the sport package 20" wheels?

Any other general information? This would be a family car, and I have 2 smaller children.

I appreciate your input and candor.
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  #95  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:00 AM
melor melor is offline
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
If BMW sticks with a numb feel on the steering or other performance compromise to appeal to the Lexus crowd or the Chinese crowd, then I am done ......

I understand what you mean by the Lexus crowd... People who want a "Lexus" ride buy one and you are referring to those people.

Please explain what you mean by Chinese crowd... Are you saying Chinese people like numb feel on steering? Are you referring to all Chinese people, because many many of them don't have cars although that is changing... Or a particular subset of Chinese?

Where did this Chinese thing come from? How about the Japanese? Hell, they make the Lexus, don't they like the numb feel on steering too?

Pharding, I don't always agree with your posts, but usually I understand them.

Paul
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Old 10-17-2010, 10:05 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by sambb View Post
For me, the drag race times are just not as important as feel.
Drag race?? You're missing the picture, see the readings again.

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Old 10-17-2010, 10:55 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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the f10's steering is as precise as my e90.
+1. Many of these people have not driven an F10, or are so biased by their current or previous BMW's that they refuse to acknowledge a difference between steering "precision" and "feel", meaning lightness/heaviness. My 535i steering is as precise or more so than my E90 335i. At speed the lightness tightens up (even without sport or DHP), and mine exhibits absolutely no on-center "vagueness" or wandering. This is now urban legend, IMO.
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:05 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by melor View Post
I understand what you mean by the Lexus crowd... People who want a "Lexus" ride buy one and you are referring to those people.

Please explain what you mean by Chinese crowd... Are you saying Chinese people like numb feel on steering? Are you referring to all Chinese people, because many many of them don't have cars although that is changing... Or a particular subset of Chinese?

Where did this Chinese thing come from? How about the Japanese? Hell, they make the Lexus, don't they like the numb feel on steering too?

Pharding, I don't always agree with your posts, but usually I understand them.

Paul
I'm assuming he means that as china is quickly becoming a huge market for luxury cars more and more companies including BMW are pandering to their preferences. For example, many buyers in china who are buying a 5 series are being chauffeured as hiring workers is very cheap over there. So buyers in that market care little about steering feel or that the car handles well and instead emphasize comfort and a "Lexus" like ride. The seven series is still to costly for that market so that is probably one of the reasons BMW pushed the new 5 far more into the luxury side of things this time around. India is actually beginning to see the same thing.

Last edited by jimefam; 10-17-2010 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:17 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
I'm assuming he means that as china is quickly becoming a huge market for luxury cars more and more companies including BMW are pandering to their preferences. For example, many buyers in china who are buying a 5 series are being chauffeured as hiring workers is very cheap over there. So buyers in that market care little about steering feel or that the car handles well and instead emphasize comfort and a "Lexus" like ride. The seven series is still to costly for that market so that is probably one of the reasons BMW pushed the new 5 far more into the luxury side of things this time around.
Perhaps, but do we know how the Germans are reacting to the new F10? I wouldn't be surprised if BMW could tailor the steering profile for various country destinations, US vs. Asian countries vs.??
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:50 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
+1. Many of these people have not driven an F10, or are so biased by their current or previous BMW's that they refuse to acknowledge a difference between steering "precision" and "feel", meaning lightness/heaviness. My 535i steering is as precise or more so than my E90 335i. At speed the lightness tightens up (even without sport or DHP), and mine exhibits absolutely no on-center "vagueness" or wandering. This is now urban legend, IMO.
You are right about the Steering being accurate. I don't think many people are claiming otherwise. It definitely does as it's told in the sense that it is easy to make it do what you want. What most people are complaining about is a lack of communication from the steering as to the state of road conditions and available grip. While this isolation is desirable for luxury it makes it more difficult to explore the limits of the car because your unsure of what the tires are experiencing. Most people won't have any issue with this and most of the people lamenting this change(myself included) just enjoy the feeling of connectedness and responsiveness this provides. I doubt 90% of the people complaining about the steering are gonna take it to the limit. But as I stated in another thread that really is not the point we buy these cars not because we need all 400hp or all the performance the car is capable of but because we enjoy having on tap. Buying a BMW is supposed to deliver that as they pride themselves(or did) as the ultimate driving machine. Hope this LONG post cleared up your confusion as to what the issue actually is. Also to say that the people who are bring up this issue are just parroting C&D is rediculous as reviews for the 5 series started coming out just a couple of months ago and people on this board have been discussing this far longer than that.
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