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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 10-17-2010, 11:53 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Perhaps, but do we know how the Germans are reacting to the new F10? I wouldn't be surprised if BMW could tailor the steering profile for various country destinations, US vs. Asian countries vs.??
I'm sure they could and perhaps that is the solution they will eventually implement but I doubt that is being done right now.
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  #102  
Old 10-17-2010, 12:30 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
You are right about the Steering being accurate. I don't think many people are claiming otherwise. It definitely does as it's told in the sense that it is easy to make it do what you want. What most people are complaining about is a lack of communication from the steering as to the state of road conditions and available grip. While this isolation is desirable for luxury it makes it more difficult to explore the limits of the car because your unsure of what the tires are experiencing. Most people won't have any issue with this and most of the people lamenting this change(myself included) just enjoy the feeling of connectedness and responsiveness this provides. I doubt 90% of the people complaining about the steering are gonna take it to the limit. But as I stated in another thread that really is not the point we buy these cars not because we need all 400hp or all the performance the car is capable of but because we enjoy having on tap. Buying a BMW is supposed to deliver that as they pride themselves(or did) as the ultimate driving machine. Hope this LONG post cleared up your confusion as to what the issue actually is. Also to say that the people who are bring up this issue are just parroting C&D is rediculous as reviews for the 5 series started coming out just a couple of months ago and people on this board have been discussing this far longer than that.
I think this is a reasonable opinion. My only point of this thread is that the steering has changed to become more lexus-buick-cadillac fleetwood style - it has poor feedback, etc. This is in the hands of experts. I am not saying that those of you shouldn't like it. If you like that style, then I think you'll be very happy with it! Some of us don't like that style, and BMW has a history of making some of the best "enthusiast" steering out there. I am disappointed that they went in a more 90s GM mainstream direction.

If you like this style of steering, great. More power to you. There are some who drive the car for performance, and others who drive it for the badge, and there are a lot of other viable reasons to buy the car. I am hoping that a fix or software update can be made for those of us who like a different feel. But neither version is necessarily better - it is just differences in preference for what we want in a car.
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  #103  
Old 10-17-2010, 12:36 PM
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gregb10 gregb10 is offline
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Originally Posted by sambb View Post
I think this is a reasonable opinion. My only point of this thread is that the steering has changed to become more lexus-buick-cadillac fleetwood style - it has poor feedback, etc. This is in the hands of experts. I am not saying that those of you shouldn't like it. If you like that style, then I think you'll be very happy with it! Some of us don't like that style, and BMW has a history of making some of the best "enthusiast" steering out there. I am disappointed that they went in a more 90s GM mainstream direction.

If you like this style of steering, great. More power to you. There are some who drive the car for performance, and others who drive it for the badge, and there are a lot of other viable reasons to buy the car. I am hoping that a fix or software update can be made for those of us who like a different feel. But neither version is necessarily better - it is just differences in preference for what we want in a car.
90s GM mainstream direction? Im not sure about that. It might be a little light when going slow but that does not have an impact on handling. The car still handles great an better than any GM car from the 90s era in its class.
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  #104  
Old 10-17-2010, 01:12 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by gregb10 View Post
90s GM mainstream direction? Im not sure about that. It might be a little light when going slow but that does not have an impact on handling. The car still handles great an better than any GM car from the 90s era in its class.
This is in my opinion another misconception. I don't think that the problem with the steering is it being too light or heavy that is just a matter of personal preference. I prefer a heftier steering than most but that is not the problem with feedback. I think alot of people either don't know how to adequately describe the lack of feedback issue or perhaps are just expressing their preference as a problem with the car. The lightness or heft of the steering is a separate issue from the feedback issue and is causing many on here to dismiss the problem as an "urban myth" simply because they see so many people poorly describing the situation. The people whom I have seen complain about the steering who I believe know what they are talking about and truly understand what is meant by lack of feedback are pharding, solstice, quackbury. I believe most others are lumping in their opinions on the force needed to operate the steering wheel. Totally different topics!
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  #105  
Old 10-17-2010, 01:14 PM
sygazelle sygazelle is online now
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[QUOTE=enigma;5532863]And my point was that this topic has been discussed to death already in case it wasn't clear the first time around. I would love to hear what additional value this thread brings besides rehashing the same points over and over.


USC plays the Fight Song over and over. Using your logic, once would be enough. BTW I am a USC alumni so I am not dissing USC.

The reason this topic keeps coming up is because the steering on the F10 is so un-BMW that many (including me) BMW owners are shocked when they test drive the F10. I was so stunned by the lack of BMW feel, that I test drove it again a week later to see if I was missing something the first time. I am on my 3rd 5 series. My current ride is the 2003 540i with m-tech package. The F10 feels like a soul-less boat by comparison. I would not trade straight across.

The steering issues keep coming up because it is so shocking and BMW enthusiasts want to voice their considerable, and well deserved opinions.

Fight on!
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  #106  
Old 10-17-2010, 01:18 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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[QUOTE=sygazelle;5551335]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
And my point was that this topic has been discussed to death already in case it wasn't clear the first time around. I would love to hear what additional value this thread brings besides rehashing the same points over and over.


USC plays the Fight Song over and over. Using your logic, once would be enough. BTW I am a USC alumni so I am not dissing USC.

The reason this topic keeps coming up is because the steering on the F10 is so un-BMW that many (including me) BMW owners are shocked when they test drive the F10. I was so stunned by the lack of BMW feel, that I test drove it again a week later to see if I was missing something the first time. I am on my 3rd 5 series. My current ride is the 2003 540i with m-tech package. The F10 feels like a soul-less boat by comparison. I would not trade straight across.

The steering issues keep coming up because it is so shocking and BMW enthusiasts want to voice their considerable, and well deserved opinions.

Fight on!

VERY well said! people dont have to read this, they can skip the thread if they arent interested! Can you imagine if there was only ONE thread on HPFP failures??!!!

Here is another review which has some good points:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

They say "The steering in the 550i is by far its greatest downfall. The electrically assisted system is linear, but it feels artificially heavy and is devoid of feedback, even when it's supposedly been livened in the sport or sport-plus settings. Coming from BMW, this is a huge disappointment, and the steering of the 550i can't hold a candle to the fine feel provided by the tiller in the Audi A6. At legal speeds, the steering in the 550i isn't so lifeless as to be unforgivable, but it takes time to get used to. When pushing the car, though, we find that the lack of feedback leaves one guessing the precise amount of input needed to control the vehicle.

Between the dull steering and the easy-as-pie computerized handling, the 550i offers a fast journey but a driving experience that lacks the drama, involvement, and excitement we expect from BMW. We walked away from the manual 550i with a slightly better impression of the 2011 5-series, but it simply boiled down to feeling more connected to the car through the gearbox, something the automatic can't deliver."

Last edited by sambb; 10-17-2010 at 01:38 PM.
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  #107  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:02 PM
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[QUOTE=sambb;5551343]
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Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post


They say "The steering in the 550i is by far its greatest downfall. The electrically assisted system is linear, but it feels artificially heavy.."
I am a C&D subscriber, and this is the statement I was so confused about. They claim "artificially heavy". Regardless of how people feel about the feedback, isn't this statement totally against what anyone on bimmerfest is saying? If anything I thought the feeling in general was it's too light.
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  #108  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:15 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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[QUOTE=markl53;5551405]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post

I am a C&D subscriber, and this is the statement I was so confused about. They claim "artificially heavy". Regardless of how people feel about the feedback, isn't this statement totally against what anyone on bimmerfest is saying? If anything I thought the feeling in general was it's too light.
I'm just speculating here but it could be that they try to say that when the steering is tigthened it doesn't feel like a reduction in boost but as an artificial layer of added resistance. If you have no power steering it's very heavy to turn the wheel, then you add assistance to make it lighter and to make it tigther you could just reduce the assistance which should result in a more natural "heaviness" but C&D might imply that to them it feels more like one more layer of electronic trickery is added to achieve "heaviness".

Last edited by solstice; 10-17-2010 at 05:11 PM.
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  #109  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:17 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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[QUOTE=markl53;5551405]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post

I am a C&D subscriber, and this is the statement I was so confused about. They claim "artificially heavy". Regardless of how people feel about the feedback, isn't this statement totally against what anyone on bimmerfest is saying? If anything I thought the feeling in general was it's too light.
That's what i mean about it being two issues. How light or heavy the steering is is a subjective opinion the lack of feedback is a fact. The reason some people say it's too light and others say it's too heavy is because it depends on what your used too. Just like lifting weights 150lbs might be to much to bench for me but it may be nothing to a bodybuilder. Or to five u an example that has more to do with cars when I drive my 240sx with the skyline engine in it the steering feels super heavy at first cause it's got no PS then when I get into my wifes jag it's steering feels super light as I've become accustomed to the 240. It's subjective! The feedback issue? Not so much.
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  #110  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:31 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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"the lack of feedback is a fact"

How can you say it is a fact when feedback is by definition only a sensation in one's hands. In order to state it as a fact it has to be something that is objectively measureable. How would you go about measuring the amount of "feedback".
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  #111  
Old 10-17-2010, 03:28 PM
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It would be nice to see if the xdrive is different, as earlier in this thread, it was alluded to be a different steering system.
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  #112  
Old 10-17-2010, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimefam View Post

That's what i mean about it being two issues. How light or heavy the steering is is a subjective opinion the lack of feedback is a fact. The reason some people say it's too light and others say it's too heavy is because it depends on what your used too. Just like lifting weights 150lbs might be to much to bench for me but it may be nothing to a bodybuilder. Or to five u an example that has more to do with cars when I drive my 240sx with the skyline engine in it the steering feels super heavy at first cause it's got no PS then when I get into my wifes jag it's steering feels super light as I've become accustomed to the 240. It's subjective! The feedback issue? Not so much.
Well of course C&D is used to most BMW steering feel, so when they say "heavy" I think they mean in relation to other BMW's.
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  #113  
Old 10-17-2010, 04:28 PM
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90s GM mainstream direction? I'm not sure about that. It might be a little light when going slow but that does not have an impact on handling. The car still handles great an better than any GM car from the 90s era in its class.
In Comfort Mode and Normal Mode the F10 floats like a boat down the highway like a GM car from the 90's. In Comfort Mode and Normal Mode it steers like a 90's GM car going down the road. One pays twice the price of a miserable GM product to get the feel of a miserable GM product. BMW was dropped the Ultimate Driving Machine theme because they no longer make the Ultimate Driving Machine. Now the theme is Joy. Watch this flash of how they define Joy. http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...y/bmw_joy.html They don't even mention driving or Sport Sedan. They are selling touchy feely stuff that has nothing to do with driving or the Sport Sedan Heritage of BMW.

BMW has a bunch of Senior Citizens on the Board of Directors who make ridiculous decisions and issue stupid directives that ignore the rich heritage and tradition of BMW. They have absolutely no courage. It is like a bunch of Homer Simpsons on the Board of Directors. I am sure the F10 conceptual discussions went like this. "Oh the criticism of the Chris Bangle E60 has been sooooo unnerving. Let's make the F10 really bland so that no one would criticize the design. While we are at let's make the F10 Lexusy. Let's just dumb down the suspension and steering to appeal to the Lexus and Mercedes crowds. Let's just build a car that appeals to all people even if it makes no one particularly happy. We have gotten some criticism that the sports suspensions make the ride too bumpy. We can't have that anymore. With our growing focus on the Chinese market we don't need a true sports suspension because they have hired help that drives the BMW Owner around in the back seat. We will make the F10 big and heavy so that it appeals to big and heavy Americans. We will just load up the F10 with a bunch of expensive doo dads that have very little to do with driving, that we can offer as expensive options that will bring JOY. Since we are now selling Joy we can just forget all that Sports Sedan Stuff. We need to move on and offer electronic luxury cars. Sports Sedans are so 2000."
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  #114  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:21 PM
sygazelle sygazelle is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
"the lack of feedback is a fact"

How can you say it is a fact when feedback is by definition only a sensation in one's hands. In order to state it as a fact it has to be something that is objectively measureable. How would you go about measuring the amount of "feedback".

First of all, congratulations on your new 550i. I am sure it is a stunning car.

Now to the point. Subjective or not, the steering feel on the F10 (and arguably the E60 before it) is different than ever before in any BMW. For the past 40+ years, car magazines and owners have praised BMW sedans for being sporty and having a great road feel. The F10 is very different. It may very well be a great car, but good or bad, it is not the same. BMW is clearly taking a different direction with the 5 series. That's okay.
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  #115  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:24 PM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
In Comfort Mode and Normal Mode the F10 floats like a boat down the highway like a GM car from the 90's. In Comfort Mode and Normal Mode it steers like a 90's GM car going down the road. One pays twice the price of a miserable GM product to get the feel of a miserable GM product. BMW was dropped the Ultimate Driving Machine theme because they no longer make the Ultimate Driving Machine. Now the theme is Joy. Watch this flash of how they define Joy. http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...y/bmw_joy.html They don't even mention driving or Sport Sedan. They are selling touchy feely stuff that has nothing to do with driving or the Sport Sedan Heritage of BMW.

BMW has a bunch of Senior Citizens on the Board of Directors who make ridiculous decisions and issue stupid directives that ignore the rich heritage and tradition of BMW. They have absolutely no courage. It is like a bunch of Homer Simpsons on the Board of Directors. I am sure the F10 conceptual discussions went like this. "Oh the criticism of the Chris Bangle E60 has been sooooo unnerving. Let's make the F10 really bland so that no one would criticize the design. While we are at let's make the F10 Lexusy. Let's just dumb down the suspension and steering to appeal to the Lexus and Mercedes crowds. Let's just build a car that appeals to all people even if it makes no one particularly happy. We have gotten some criticism that the sports suspensions make the ride too bumpy. We can't have that anymore. With our growing focus on the Chinese market we don't need a true sports suspension because they have hired help that drives the BMW Owner around in the back seat. We will make the F10 big and heavy so that it appeals to big and heavy Americans. We will just load up the F10 with a bunch of expensive doo dads that have very little to do with driving, that we can offer as expensive options that will bring JOY. Since we are now selling Joy we can just forget all that Sports Sedan Stuff. We need to move on and offer electronic luxury cars. Sports Sedans are so 2000."
OMG, another "where do I start" response? First, for you guys that "hate" your F10's, I just don't understand why you bought one in the first place, especially solstice and pharding. You seem to hate them so much, why don't you just trade for an Audi or some other "ultimate driving machine" alternative? You must be the drivers looking for the badge factor, otherwise I just don't know why you bought them.

Second, unless your "normal" mode is much different from my base suspension 535i, I can tell you, having driven many GM cars not just in the 90's but through the 70's and 80's, that my non-sport 535i feels nothing like a 90's GM car driving down the highway. Surprisingly for a car significantly larger than my previous 335i, it does not wallow "floatingly" down the road, nor does it have imprecise steering. In addition, for me, it does not have a bloated or heavy feeling, instead it is very nimble, doesn't feel all that different in everyday driving from the 335i, except for its far superior ride characteristics. Perhaps the added weight of the 550i makes that difference for you.

Third, do you really think the F10 was targeted only for foreign markets, totally ignoring the German populace? Why would they build a car which would only be shunned in their home land?

Fourth, no one is forcing you to buy options you do not want or need. Yes, the sport package + DHP is a bit more expensive than the total sport package was in the E60, but not that much more for what you get, IMO. No I don't have the sport package or DHP, nor did I buy the sport package in my other two 3-series. That doesn't mean I want a Lexus or GM like ride, and that is not what I've gotten with any of my BMW's. If they offer other electronic add-ons that you don't need, just skip them, you don't need to claim you bought a "totally loaded" BMW. The lack of some of these features may be the deal breaker for people moving from other cars, such as MB, Audi, Lexus and other luxury brands. Did you ever think that BMW "needs" to offer these features to be on par with other brands in its class? This alone does not mean they are building Lexus and MB with a BMW badge.
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Last edited by markl53; 10-17-2010 at 05:29 PM.
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  #116  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:28 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
First of all, congratulations on your new 550i. I am sure it is a stunning car.

Now to the point. Subjective or not, the steering feel on the F10 (and arguably the E60 before it) is different than ever before in any BMW. For the past 40+ years, car magazines and owners have praised BMW sedans for being sporty and having a great road feel. The F10 is very different. It may very well be a great car, but good or bad, it is not the same. BMW is clearly taking a different direction with the 5 series. That's okay.
Well said... it is just not the sports sedan that it used to be... unfortunately. But the buick crowd will love it, that's for sure. Marketing >>> Enthusiast for this model
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  #117  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:46 PM
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I think it comes down to, again, whether or not one likes the more numb feel vs the more the precise steering feel.
One of those on the car & driver crowd

So how is the 2007-8 7 series superior to the F10? Quote"I am thus considering a 7 series, 2007-8, after I saw that CPO examples are pretty well priced in the low 40s. That is amazing for cars with 30k miles!"

What are the specs of the F10 you tested? And in what mode did you test it, and what was ticked in i-Drive?

Last edited by bm323; 10-17-2010 at 05:52 PM.
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  #118  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:46 PM
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Yes, it is different. Some will think it is better, some will think it is worse. ...and those who are resistent to change, won't like it regardless.
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  #119  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:48 PM
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Sambb,

Just curiously, what are the specifics to the 550i you own, just so I can better understand where you are coming from.
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  #120  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
First of all, congratulations on your new 550i. I am sure it is a stunning car.

Now to the point. Subjective or not, the steering feel on the F10 (and arguably the E60 before it) is different than ever before in any BMW. For the past 40+ years, car magazines and owners have praised BMW sedans for being sporty and having a great road feel. The F10 is very different. It may very well be a great car, but good or bad, it is not the same. BMW is clearly taking a different direction with the 5 series. That's okay.
Meaning arguably, the E60 was different too?

Last edited by bm323; 10-17-2010 at 05:51 PM.
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  #121  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:49 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
"the lack of feedback is a fact"

How can you say it is a fact when feedback is by definition only a sensation in one's hands. In order to state it as a fact it has to be something that is objectively measureable. How would you go about measuring the amount of "feedback".
Your kidding right? That's like saying it's impossible to measure the decibels coming from the radio because noise is only a sensation in ones ear drum! "Feedback" is the information about the road conditions and tires that is transmitted through the steering rack in the form of vibrations and other input. This exists independent of whether your hands are on the wheel or not. What you are referring to is your PERCEPTION of the "feedback". Just like sound would still be coming from the hypothetical radio I referenced above even if the only person around was deaf. So to answer your question yes if someone was determined to measure this "feedback" I'm talking about it could be done and even compared to other cars if they were measured in the same manner. Now you are right that it is indeed not a fact because this has not been measured but it absolutely can be and I'm confident that if it was you would see a marked difference between the e60 and the f10. Also any who understands what I and others mean by feedback will notice the difference without said measurements.
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  #122  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:54 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
Your kidding right? That's like saying it's impossible to measure the decibels coming from the radio because noise is only a sensation in ones ear drum! "Feedback" is the information about the road conditions and tires that is transmitted through the steering rack in the form of vibrations and other input. This exists independent of whether your hands are on the wheel or not. What you are referring to is your PERCEPTION of the "feedback". Just like sound would still be coming from the hypothetical radio I referenced above even if the only person around was deaf. So to answer your question yes if someone was determined to measure this "feedback" I'm talking about it could be done and even compared to other cars if they were measured in the same manner. Now you are right that it is indeed not a fact because this has not been measured but it absolutely can be and I'm confident that if it was you would see a marked difference between the e60 and the f10. Also any who understands what I and others mean by feedback will notice the difference without said measurements.
So what instrument is used to measure this so called objective feedback? Any car mag reviewer measures this? Any readings for the F10?
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  #123  
Old 10-17-2010, 06:16 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
So what instrument is used to measure this so called objective feedback? Any car mag reviewer measures this? Any readings for the F10?
If you reread my post you'll see I said that this was something that COULD be measured if you were so inclined not that it's measured now by any magazine. I swear I think these threads drag on so much because people don't take the time to read carefully. Now I'm no physicist or engineer(that would be rich) or anything but a businessman but I imagine you could sort of measure this "feedback" by measuring the vibrations coming through the steering wheel with the motor running at idle to determine how much of that is from the engine running. That would be your baseline then drive the car through various conditions and see how increases in "feedback" correlate with road conditions. Again I'm just making sh*t up but I don't see why this wouldn't work.
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  #124  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:22 PM
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bmrboy2008 bmrboy2008 is offline
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I am no PHD either, and maybe I'm being simplistic. However, when I bought my 2008 535i after driving a 5'er with active steering for three years, I thought the 535i's steering sucked. I thought something was wrong with it. However, it was just a matter of getting aclimated to a non-active steering optioned car. Albeit other issues, I have no problem with the steering on my 535i now, I actually love it.
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2005 525i - Jet Black, Beige Dakota Leather, Light Poplar Wood Trim, Premium Package, Sports Package, Active Steering, Sirius, 17" Star Spoke 138's - R.I.P.

Last edited by bmrboy2008; 10-17-2010 at 07:24 PM.
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  #125  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:27 PM
sygazelle sygazelle is online now
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Meaning arguably, the E60 was different too?

Sorry for the ambiguity. I drove a friends 2009 535i. I did not like the steering or the feel of the car. It had run flats and we were on a very bumpy road so it was arguable to me. I drove home on the same road in my E39 without run flats and my car felt great by comparison. Maybe it is simply what I am used to driving.

As others have stated in this thread, it's subjective. All I know is the albeit unmeasurable grin factor that used to be the heart of the ultimate driving experience is missing for me. With all three of 5 series I have owned, I find excuses to take the long way home.

Bottom line: BMW has moved on with the 5 series and I haven't. I wait with anticipation for the F10 M5 or the next 3 series. In the meantime, I'll drive my E39.

To be clear, I am not saying the F10 is not a good car. It's probably a great car. I love the look and the fit and finish. It just isn't the same feel to me, subjective or not, measurable or not.
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