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Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 05-30-2014, 09:55 AM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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My oil separator thread

I just wanted to bring to your guys attention a thread I started over in the X5 board where I mostly hang out. You may be interested as well since it can apply to both the 335d and the 35d (as well as other M57 diesel cars). It's describe a crankcase breather filter I've came up with

There's been ongoing discussion about carbon buildup resulting from soot from the EGR mixing with oily crankcase vapors and caking up the intake with a tar looking. When I cleaned the intake on my X5 with the Lubro Moly spray there was some, but not nearly as bad as some have shown, but still if this is a way to reduce it, I'll be happy.

So here it is and enjoy: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=774371
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  #2  
Old 05-30-2014, 10:34 AM
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lp,

You have hit on a great idea for sure. I for one totally get it.

I used to operate large stationary power plants using large bore medium speed diesel engines. Think 25,000 Hp and up.

Well, the Germans in their usual design wizardry form, ran the crankcase exhaust vents directly near the intake air filters, which was of course mucking everything up. Dirty oil, vapors, steam, smoke was all being directly ingested back into the engine intake and fouling up the air filters, intake silencers, turbo compressors, and charge air coolers. Low temp corrosion was often associated with this problem.

I designed and had built some simple steel can type cylone separators in order to knock out the majority of the condensable fluids (oil and water) and redirected the fumes to well above the power plants roof line so these would not get reingested.

Your solution should greatly reduce the impact that the crankcase vents have on CBU, but will not address the EGR recirculation. Time will tell how effective your solution will be and I am very interested to see how it works.

Please keep us posted.
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  #3  
Old 05-30-2014, 11:38 AM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingman View Post
but will not address the EGR re-circulation.
ABSOLUTELY it will not address the EGR.

However I suspect that the deposits and carbon buildup are NOT caused by soot in and of itself: when I removed the EGR cooler to replace the thermostat there was a layer of soot, but they were very dry and they would wipe off almost clean with a finger: soot doesn't deposit in the EGR cooler yet it deposits in the intake. The stuff in the intake is really a tar that sticks like glue. I suspect very very much that in the absence of oily vapors soot would just travel through the intake without problems, flow into the combustion chamber and burns through. For example the gasoline engine have carbon buildup but have no EGR (albeit valve overlap results in an "internal EGR" and DI engines do generate some soot under certain conditions) and people address it with an oil separator. My point is simply that the soot in HP EGR diesel simply exacerbate the issue of oily crankcase fumes.

As I said in that thread there may be some implications to my mod in freezing weathers; also my system may not be completely maintenance free requiring periodic checks to ensure the media is not clogged; last but not least the presence of anti-tamper bolts makes me think there may be some regulatory reason behind BMW choice. So maybe for the mass market my solution doesn't work and that's why BMW moved away from it and ended up getting caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand you have a maintenance filter that reduced carbon buildup and on the other you have a maintenance-free CCV that require intake maintenance to scrape off carbon buildup. The combination of LNT and SNR in the new N57 may allow BMW to reduce the duty cycle of the EGR: this may reduce the amount of soot available for the oily vapors to mix with (possibly reinforcing the thesis that X5 are less susceptible to carbon buildup because of the use of a LP EGR)

You also mention the cyclonic separator that one way or another use centrifuge separation: those systems do work and have limited flow restriction, but they have a certain range of airflow speed to be effective. Just think about the drum of the washer machine: it centrifuge the water only when it spins at a certain speed. In your application it worked very well because the engines were likely operating at a constant range they wouldn't sit idling or increase/decrease RPM continuously accelerating and decelerating the gas flow.

We'll see how this works; for what I know the car could blow up tomorrow... eheheheh!!!!
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Last edited by lpcapital; 05-30-2014 at 11:43 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-30-2014, 06:53 PM
135i_vs_ 135i_vs_ is offline
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Thanks for sharing your project!
I also researched quite a bit to find an inline stand alone CCV system. However, I did not find any that would be free flowing enough to maintain the proper crankcase pressures under high boost from the 2 turbos.
Adding this filter, do you think it will maintain the required crankcase pressures? I think the Land Rover has non-turbo engine.

I also kept my EGR intact and operational, as it helps warm the car up quickly, and I am still under CPO warranty. Also in NY, we have OBDII Port inspection. The monitors need to be in Ready mode to pass inspection. Blocking the EGR will either throw a code or keep the OBDII status "not-ready".

Here is my Catch Can install thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965053
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  #5  
Old 05-30-2014, 07:10 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_vs_ View Post
I did not find any that would be free flowing enough to maintain the proper crankcase pressures under high boost from the 2 turbos.
How did you got to that conclusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_vs_ View Post
I think the Land Rover has non-turbo engine.
There is no way to make a Diesel engine without turbo: the thing just wouldn't move...
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Last edited by lpcapital; 05-30-2014 at 07:13 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-30-2014, 07:14 PM
135i_vs_ 135i_vs_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpcapital View Post
How did you got to that conclusion?



There is no way to make a Diesel engine without turbo: the thing just wouldn't move...
For the small ccv systems I found, the inlet and outlet port was maximum 0.5". The 335d engine bay is very cramped.
Ah! Sorry didn't realize you were referring to the diesel version! :-)
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  #7  
Old 05-31-2014, 08:57 AM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_vs_ View Post
For the small ccv systems I found, the inlet and outlet port was maximum 0.5". The 335d engine bay is very cramped.
Ah! Sorry didn't realize you were referring to the diesel version! :-)
I thought about your post overnight and I don't have a good answer for you now.

But the concern is a very legitimate one.

What I'll do is modify an oil filler cap I have laying around and add a nipple to it so I can connect a boost gauge I have and see what kind of crankcase pressure readings I get...

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  #8  
Old 05-31-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpcapital View Post
ABSOLUTELY it will not address the EGR.

However I suspect that the deposits and carbon buildup are NOT caused by soot in and of itself: when I removed the EGR cooler to replace the thermostat there was a layer of soot, but they were very dry and they would wipe off almost clean with a finger: soot doesn't deposit in the EGR cooler yet it deposits in the intake. The stuff in the intake is really a tar that sticks like glue. I suspect very very much that in the absence of oily vapors soot would just travel through the intake without problems, flow into the combustion chamber and burns through. For example the gasoline engine have carbon buildup but have no EGR (albeit valve overlap results in an "internal EGR" and DI engines do generate some soot under certain conditions) and people address it with an oil separator. My point is simply that the soot in HP EGR diesel simply exacerbate the issue of oily crankcase fumes.

As I said in that thread there may be some implications to my mod in freezing weathers; also my system may not be completely maintenance free requiring periodic checks to ensure the media is not clogged; last but not least the presence of anti-tamper bolts makes me think there may be some regulatory reason behind BMW choice. So maybe for the mass market my solution doesn't work and that's why BMW moved away from it and ended up getting caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand you have a maintenance filter that reduced carbon buildup and on the other you have a maintenance-free CCV that require intake maintenance to scrape off carbon buildup. The combination of LNT and SNR in the new N57 may allow BMW to reduce the duty cycle of the EGR: this may reduce the amount of soot available for the oily vapors to mix with (possibly reinforcing the thesis that X5 are less susceptible to carbon buildup because of the use of a LP EGR)

You also mention the cyclonic separator that one way or another use centrifuge separation: those systems do work and have limited flow restriction, but they have a certain range of airflow speed to be effective. Just think about the drum of the washer machine: it centrifuge the water only when it spins at a certain speed. In your application it worked very well because the engines were likely operating at a constant range they wouldn't sit idling or increase/decrease RPM continuously accelerating and decelerating the gas flow.

We'll see how this works; for what I know the car could blow up tomorrow... eheheheh!!!!
The crankcase fumes are definitely wet, oily, and gunky while I suspect most of the time the EGR is recirculating the hot, drier exhaust fumes and soot (dry nature). Soot is generally all hydrocarbon, organic and very much burnable, which is why the DPF regenerations work as well as they do. All of the intake deposits will also be mostly organic hydrocarbons, but because they are much colder will never burn unless they can get introduced somehow (with the aid of some of these spray on solvents we've seen advertised for example) into the combustion chamber.

Just thinking about what the condition of my intakes might look like makes me grimace.
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  #9  
Old 05-31-2014, 02:41 PM
135i_vs_ 135i_vs_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpcapital View Post
I thought about your post overnight and I don't have a good answer for you now.

But the concern is a very legitimate one.

What I'll do is modify an oil filler cap I have laying around and add a nipple to it so I can connect a boost gauge I have and see what kind of crankcase pressure readings I get...

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Here, this SIB will help you to measure the crankcase pressures.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=314

Also, I just posted my results after 2,500 miles in this thread.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965053

Based on my observations, a 335d catch can / oil separator is a MUST.
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  #10  
Old 05-31-2014, 04:33 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpcapital View Post
...
What I'll do is modify an oil filler cap I have laying around and add a nipple to it so I can connect a boost gauge I have and see what kind of crankcase pressure readings I get...

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If your car works like mine... you'll find vacuum, not pressure.

see pics and video from posts 319-321.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...867543&page=15
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  #11  
Old 06-02-2014, 10:08 AM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
If your car works like mine... you'll find vacuum, not pressure.

see pics and video from posts 319-321.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...867543&page=15
That's very interesting!!! I haven't even thought about using the dipstick as a way to measure vacuum: I was almost ready to buy a oil cap to modify...

However I'm going with a totally unscientific test after reading your post: I too noticed vapor coming out of the oil fill cap at idle and you said that by stepping on the throttle it gets sucked in... I guess I can try that on my setup and see if it does it too... All I care is that there is vacuum in there: how much it is I care less since I don't have a baseline anyway.

Thanks a bunch!!!!
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:22 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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I've updated the post with some videos showing that the crankcase is still under a certain amount of vacuum after installing my filter
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  #13  
Old 06-06-2014, 09:14 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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I uploaded the thread with some pictures of the results after about 1,000 miles
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  #14  
Old 06-09-2014, 01:17 PM
thefriedboot thefriedboot is offline
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I uploaded the thread with some pictures of the results after about 1,000 miles
Thank you.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:38 PM
sirbikes sirbikes is offline
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Hey was just wondering what LNT and SNR mean?
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:41 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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That would be Lean NOx Trap and Selective NOx Reducer, the two technologies to actively reduce NOx pollution.

Google both and you'll find lots of info

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:30 AM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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Don't know if you've ever monitored what gets trapped in a typical catch can, but depending on climate, the moisture content either directly or emulsified with the contents can be quite high- as much as 60-70% of what's extracted from humid environments.

So that will be an issue in cold climates. I'm pretty sure this, along with cost savings as you mention, is why it is what it is on a stock vehicle. The best catch can designs are easily removable for maintenance, sans filters and/or have drains that can be easily opened.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:29 AM
robbieracer robbieracer is offline
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Nice write up, I'll be sure to follow your post along the way. Our 535d will be arriving soon...
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:39 PM
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Ehi guys, I've been working on a version 2.0. You can read about it here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=8431051
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:09 AM
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Ehi guys, I've been working on a version 2.0. You can read about it here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=8431051
Thanks again. Following that thread now.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:48 PM
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The mixing of CCV vapors with soot to form carbon/tar buildups has been discussed in great detail in the VW TDI and Jeep CRD forums for years; in the VW forums since at least 2001 when I bought mine and on the Jeep CRD forum since at least 2006 when production of the North American units ceased. Two solutions have been used, as near as I can tell (and not counting the illegal EGR deletion solution). Both rely on better oil/air separators and/or rerouting of the CCV gases to the atmosphere. Since the latter is really environmentally unsound (about 80% of the engine's air pollution comes from that CCV system), the latter is highly discouraged.

But two products seem to have found favor on those other boards for doing a better job of separating oil vapors from the gases, which are then left to enter the intake as designed: some folks use a Provent 200 filter separator with good results, others have gone to a cyclonic separator, found here: http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/11151705237/ES19562/

I did not put either on my TDI, and had nearly blocked intake manifold cleaned out at about 150,000 miles. I put a Provent 200 on my Jeep at 11,000 miles, and when the cylinder head gasket blew at 150,000 miles, the cleaning job on the intake before it was bolted back on to the head was pretty minor.

I may be springing for the ECS unit for my X5.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:12 PM
BMWTurboDzl BMWTurboDzl is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael47 View Post
The mixing of CCV vapors with soot to form carbon/tar buildups has been discussed in great detail in the VW TDI and Jeep CRD forums for years; in the VW forums since at least 2001 when I bought mine and on the Jeep CRD forum since at least 2006 when production of the North American units ceased. Two solutions have been used, as near as I can tell (and not counting the illegal EGR deletion solution). Both rely on better oil/air separators and/or rerouting of the CCV gases to the atmosphere. Since the latter is really environmentally unsound (about 80% of the engine's air pollution comes from that CCV system), the latter is highly discouraged.

But two products seem to have found favor on those other boards for doing a better job of separating oil vapors from the gases, which are then left to enter the intake as designed: some folks use a Provent 200 filter separator with good results, others have gone to a cyclonic separator, found here: http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/11151705237/ES19562/

I did not put either on my TDI, and had nearly blocked intake manifold cleaned out at about 150,000 miles. I put a Provent 200 on my Jeep at 11,000 miles, and when the cylinder head gasket blew at 150,000 miles, the cleaning job on the intake before it was bolted back on to the head was pretty minor.

I may be springing for the ECS unit for my X5.
Don't forget the transition to ULSD cut way back on instances of early CBU on those TDIs
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael47 View Post
I may be springing for the ECS unit for my X5.
I've recently finished putting the ProVent 200 in the X5 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=780433) and I collect about 4oz of oil every 1,000 miles which adds up to the shortage of oil I observe between oil changes. I have not read any ECS units collecting that much oil. The other data point I have is my Z4 (2.5 liter M54) has a cyclonic separator and it never worked for crap; I replaced it with a ProVent 100 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=780051) and the oil consumption is entirely gone. I draw my conclusion, others may draw theirs...

I'm now working on adding a oil drain through the oil dipstick tube on the X5 (similar to what the M54 has) to make it basically maintenance free with the exception of the occasional filter change... I will continue to monitor the crankcase vacuum/pressure over time but so far I haven't observed anything concerning.
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Last edited by lpcapital; 07-22-2014 at 07:56 PM.
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