All Season Tires

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The Conti's are a fantastic tire on dry and wet pavement. They are, like any other all season tire, completely useless in any real snow.

I run 20'' DWS's for my summer set up and got caught last winter dragging my ass getting the winters put back on. One day of driving in real snow was more than enough to remind me how terrible all season tires are in true snow conditions versus proper winters.

What bunk you say, man, and why so needlessly angry? That can't be good for you, and its not so much fun to read, either. I have run DSW's on the 18 inch wheel for years from Banff to Stowe. With some common sense and BMW AWD they work fine in snow. Common sense, that was.

Originally Posted by dcharnet

What bunk you say, man, and why so needlessly angry? That can't be good for you, and its not so much fun to read, either. I have run DSW's on the 18 inch wheel for years from Banff to Stowe. With some common sense and BMW AWD they work fine in snow. Common sense, that was.

I can only assume that you are comparing the 255's square vs the 275/315 setup. I agree with the gentleman you were bashing. You don't even realize the difference between a 46.5 inch contact patch vs a 40 inch contact patch. That 6.5 makes a big difference on the float of the tire

I can say this. Do what you think is best. Who cares what we think because you get 1) All seasons are great, winters are a waste of money... ORP 2) winters are a must and you would be dumb not to do it. I run winters on every car/SUV religiously. There was nothing better than a RWD 550 tromping through the snow better than most AWD cars simply because I had much better rubber. One more thing, just wait till you standing on the brake peddle begging your 40k-85k SUV to stop and not hit the object your sliding for.

I was referring only to my own experience with 255's, and decrying "the gentleman's" (sic) incredible rude over-statements/ rant about how "completely useless" all-seasons are in general. On our BMW with 18's I find all-seasons the best choice in the Upper Midwest for a spectrum of temperatures which is inching to the warmer end. We are in the mountains every winter skiing somewhere. Last March I towed the family race car through high mountain passes in a covered trailer during blizzard conditions to Durango, Colorado for a combined ski trip and visit to my chassis prep guy in Cortez. The X5 was loaded with 4 skiers and backcountry/ alpine gear and pulling 4500 lbs deadweight including racecar and covered trailer. The trip back through Utah saw 55-60 degree temps. All-seasons worked fine on the X5 with 255's in those extreme conditions and were the best and perhaps only choice. I do put dedicated snows on my wife's Mini Cooper, but that is a different set of issues and parameters. My prior SUV was a diesel Touareg with 275's all around. All-seasons were no problem with that, which I attribute to an excellent traction control system (like the X5's) and "common sense" driving. My experience driving with winter tires is that I drive faster, which is to say closer to the traction edge. I suspect that is common, and tends to diminish or eliminate the safety advantage winter tires do have in heavy snow and ice and, generally, temps below freezing.

This place is getting like a sorority house. Lots of folks need cranberry juice at the same time.

I am with MVR99. You CANNOT compare the low profile staggered 20's to the higher profile "square" 18's. (Well, actually you can, but it doesn't do you much good...)

Are 20" all seasons going to outperform 20" summer performance tires when the flakes start to fly? Yup. Are 20" winter performance tires going to be mo betta? Yup, Yup. Are 18" or 19" square winter performance tires going to perform best - and also save a bunch of money? Without a question.

I understand the X5 looks less aggressive with the 18's, especially if you have the flared fender lips. I know mine does. And I know that many folks don't get enough snow to make dedicated winter tires really necessary. And lots of so-called skiers make 3 or 4 trips a year, and never get to the mountain till the roads are plowed. But for those of us (ard, CDNRockies and yours truly), whose kids are ski racers, and need to be slipping the course when the lifts open, even if that means leaving home at 3:00 AM and driving unplowed roads in whiteout conditions - All Season tires do NOT make the grade.

Finally: I find it nuts that the guy who has only driven square 18's called out the guy who has actually tried running the staggered 20's in deep snow. Please realize how foolish this makes you sound.

/Rant

Sent from my HTC Inspire using BimmerApp

Wow, if your kids are actually ski racers and you actually DRIVE mountain roads before they are plowed and sanded, WOW, I absolutely defer to you, and retract everything I have said, like, ever, especially about driving in the snow. I really DO need some of that cranberry juice, and appreciate you pointing out how "things work," especially in the winter.

Wow, actual SKI racers, like on TV, except, you know, smaller, being kids and all.

This forum is the richer for your keen insights and, well, how you so capably discharge you duty of noblesse oblige and all.

Originally Posted by dcharnet

Wow, if your kids are actually ski racers and you actually DRIVE mountain roads before they are plowed and sanded, WOW, I absolutely defer to you, and retract everything I have said, like, ever, especially about driving in the snow. I really DO need some of that cranberry juice, and appreciate you pointing out how "things work," especially in the winter.

Wow, actual SKI racers, like on TV, except, you know, smaller, being kids and all.

This forum is the richer for your keen insights and, well, how you so capably discharge you duty of noblesse oblige and all.

Yep. Raced USAA from the time they were J6's (6 years old). Just like Bode, Mancuso, Liggety and the rest of the US National team, kids who are serious (and whose parents are serious) start young. My daughter used to compete against Mikaela Schiffrin, who finished on the podium at Levi last weekend: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

I realize all this is pretty difficult for someone from IOWA to comprehend. Don't sweat it. Those of us who have been here a while are pretty much used to folks making ignorant comments.

Originally Posted by quackbury

Yep. Raced USAA from the time they were J6's (6 years old). Just like Bode, Mancuso, Liggety and the rest of the US National team, kids who are serious (and whose parents are serious) start young. My daughter used to compete against Mikaela Schiffrin, who finished on the podium at Levi last weekend: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

Off topic, but it was disappointing to see the FIS turn down Lindsey Vonn's request to ski against the men at Lake Louise. Definitely would have helped with the PR for the sport, both men's and women's.

Just saw she's been hospitalized with a non-ski related illness.

I realize all this is pretty difficult for someone from IOWA to comprehend. Don't sweat it. Those of us who have been here a while are pretty much used to folks making ignorant comments.

Don't you know the winter driving experts come from Iowa and NC...lol.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Off topic, but it was disappointing to see the FIS turn down Lindsey Vonn's request to ski against the men at Lake Louise. Definitely would have helped with the PR for the sport, both men's and women's.

True, but can you imagine the consternation if she BEAT some of the men? Not just from the competitors, but from their sponsors, as well?

One of the neat things about JIV and JIII racing was that on a regional level, the boys and girls competed on the same day, on the same course. It wasn't unusual for Mikaela Schiffrin to be 2-3 seconds or more faster than the quickest boy. She was really something special, even then.

By the time we get to Sochi, I think she will be a household name in the US. It's fun to have known her (and in my daughter's case, raced against her) "back in the day".

Hopefully, they guy in IOWA's kids will have the same experience some day. Assuming they add corn-husking, cow-pie flinging or tractor pulling to a future Olympics.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Don't you know the winter driving experts come from Iowa and NC...lol.

Stereotypes (Sigh) - I wonder if Quackbury & I might have raced back in the "old" days. I competed in GS & slalom from 78 through 81 & was nationally ranked on the liquid alternative that exists in lakes during the summer time for slalom, jumping & tricking (OK, so I sucked @ tricks but I WAS one of the first doing flips in competitions at that time. I am actually thinking about getting back into NASTAR (or whatever it is called these days) with a local club now that I am close to qualifying for AARP!

Full disclosure - I DID have a JEEP in those days with "Mud" tires rather than actual snow tires on it so perhaps I was unconventional even back then. Although I've never been in any type of accident, my brother DID try to take our '70 Cutlass down the mountain one time in white out conditions and he bounced it off a few guard rails (this while I was in college and not able to talk SENSE into him..LOL)

Originally Posted by ndabunka

Stereotypes (Sigh) - I wonder if Quackbury & I might have raced back in the "old" days. I competed in GS & slalom from 78 through 81 & was nationally ranked on the liquid alternative that exists in lakes during the summer time for slalom, jumping & tricking (OK, so I sucked @ tricks but I WAS one of the first doing flips in competitions at that time. I am actually thinking about getting back into NASTAR (or whatever it is called these days) with a local club now that I am close to qualifying for AARP!

NASTAR can be fun, but Masters is the way to go: http://alpine.usskiteam.com/alpine/a...sters-programs Nothing like seeing an octogenarian in a GS suit. 3 or 4 years ago I was riding a chair with one such gentleman, and we got to talking. He looked familiar, and for a reason: he had been my Freshman advisor at Dartmouth 3 decades earlier. He was still competing in 2011, in the 75-79 division. (There was even at least one competitor in the 85-90 division, so it is not too late for you to get back on the circuit!)

Originally Posted by quackbury

Yep. Raced USAA from the time they were J6's (6 years old). Just like Bode, Mancuso, Liggety and the rest of the US National team, kids who are serious (and whose parents are serious) start young. My daughter used to compete against Mikaela Schiffrin, who finished on the podium at Levi last weekend: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

I realize all this is pretty difficult for someone from IOWA to comprehend. Don't sweat it. Those of us who have been here a while are pretty much used to folks making ignorant comments.

Over many months I have read, or rather have been unable to avoid, your irritating cyber-bully posts. What mean, insightless, condescending, blindly self-absorbed, narcissistic drivel you so often spew.Far far worse, what time I waste even addressing this, and you.

I never understood this snow tire vs all season discussion. If you live in an area where temps are consistently below 40 degrees and gets snow, you should get snow tires.

All season tires are a compromise in most conditions. Why not have a dedicated tires for warm and winter weather. It will improve the way your vehicle handles.

Originally Posted by Brian425

I never understood this snow tire vs all season discussion. If you live in an area where temps are consistently below 40 degrees and gets snow, you should get snow tires.

All season tires are a compromise in most conditions. Why not have a dedicated tires for warm and winter weather. It will improve the way your vehicle handles.

This topic is like politics. You have your beliefs and you will find arguments to tell you that you are wrong. Everybody can debate why/why not and it is up to you to make the educated decision. I can only assume that if you are purchasing one of these vehicles, you must have had the intelligence(could have been luck) to obtain the means to purchase these high priced, poor investments.

Originally Posted by ndabunka

I did delete my original post about 10 minutes after I posted it primarily because I realized it wasn't worth it. However, since you dragged it back out...


YES



I've NEVER been in a car accident driving in the snow & have skied in almost EVERY resort in CO as well as in Germany, Austria, etc so DO understand and agree that winter tires may be ESSENTIAL for a few select locations with conditions like: zero-degrees for extended periods, 3 feet of snow on the daily basis with no street cleaning equipment, etc. However, you appear to be SO single-minded that you do not appear to even fathom the "possibility" that most of us do not live in those conditions. All-Season tires are EXCEPTIONALLY well suited for many of us who live in a different environment than you. In this area it hardly ever gets under 20-degrees Fahrenheit (even in the mountains) so the all-weather tires tend to do a very good job at gripping the show and pavement in the temperatures that are common for THIS area. Resorts tend to have snow removal trucks anytime there is any more than 6 inches of snow on the road and those of us who DO ski a lot also typically bring snow chains of some type (I use SCC cables myself) in the event that the resorts REQUIRE chains to get up (and down) the mountain.


YES, of COURSE I do. Dedicated snow tires would wear out quickly in the 40-50 degree temps that exist for 90% of the time here in the foothills which would make them even further impractical. Who went and made you the SNOW POLICE? Will it bother me if he buys a different tire? Not in the LEAST. Is it REALLY going to make you THAT upset if this guy buys and (heaven forbid) actually USES a set of DWS tires based on a preponderance of positive online replies? This is the internet and like it or not, there are a LOT of opinions and guess what, they may not be the same as yours.

I did decide to go the DWS route. Several alternate forums are reporting excellent snow performance for those of us in the transition climates (not the Rockies or Canada anyway).

This whole conversation is far too generalized. There are excellent all season tires and there are terrible all season tires. They are not all created equally. That's a general statement about tires as a whole.

In the end, specific experience with each tire model in particular sizes is invaluable.

Originally Posted by Brian425

I never understood this snow tire vs all season discussion. If you live in an area where temps are consistently below 40 degrees and gets snow, you should get snow tires.

All season tires are a compromise in most conditions. Why not have a dedicated tires for warm and winter weather. It will improve the way your vehicle handles.

Perhaps it's because many live in areas where the weather is NOT below 40 for long at all. If you live below the Mason-dixon line there really is just not enough snow on the ground the majority of the time so all season tires are (just about) perfect for this (& many other) area(s). Average temps from November through March are between 32 & 62 (See the link for the details)..
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...graph/USNC0121

NOTE: This is the ALL SEASON tire thread. There is a separate WINTER TIRE thread as well.

Originally Posted by ndabunka

Perhaps it's because many live in areas where the weather is NOT below 40 for long at all. If you live below the Mason-dixon line there really is just not enough snow on the ground the majority of the time so all season tires are (just about) perfect for this (& many other) area(s). Average temps from November through March are between 32 & 62 (See the link for the details)..
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...graph/USNC0121

NOTE: This is the ALL SEASON tire thread. There is a separate WINTER TIRE thread as well.

I never addressed the people south of the Mason-Dixon line. I clearly stated that if you live in an area with CONSISTENT sub 40 degree weather and get snow on a regular basis, you should get snow tires. The issue is not only about snow, temperature is a factor too.

Given the orginal poster lists Colorado as their home state and calls themself Westden, I am willing to bet that they live in West Denver Colorado. That would put them in a region that gets consistent 40 degree weather and some snow during the winter.

There is also the issue of a very wide and very low profile tire. They just do not do very well in snow. Even in moderate snow, a square 255-50-19 or 255-55-18 snow tire will work better than a 275-40-20 & 315-35-20 snow tire set up.

I live in NYC and I am up in the Pocono mountains and Adirondacks regularly in the winter. I always get a kick out of the people with all season tires having trouble getting up the hill with 4-6 inches of snow. From first hand experience, I watched a E70 35i not get up the hill to our house while I drove around him in my E70 50i. The difference, I had 255-55-18 Blizzaks while he had all season 20's on his vehicle.

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32

When I lifted off midcorner, the rear end came around and the X3 went off the road......towards a cliff/trees and other unpleasant things to hit. Remembering the track/driver training, I looked back towards the road, ignoring the stone drainage ditch and cliff, hit the throttle and countersteered, bringing the X3 uneventfully back onto the road (okay, my mother screamed and I'm sure I raised a few eyebrows from the plow driver and other driver behind). Given the level of control I had with the winter tires and zero margin for error, I never had to panic, or think twice. Did the tires make a difference? Absolutely.

What a good story. I'm glad you remebered to hit the gas instead of the brakes pedal. I can't say the same for most of the drivers on the road.

From the time I spent on the track, I would give her more gas to throttle steer instead of lifting midcorner

" Although I've never been in any type of accident, my brother DID try to take our '70 Cutlass down the mountain one time in white out conditions and he bounced it off a few guard rails (this while I was in college and not able to talk SENSE into him..LOL)"

Must have been Beech Mtn, been there, tried that. Not fun.

A

Brian,

this is a great story, i to have just installed 255/55/18 with pirelli snow and ice. However i am curious if your friend had OEM Summer tires on his X5 3.5 or he/she actually changed and installed ALL season Michelin or Condi DWS.

thanks.

Originally Posted by Brian425

I never addressed the people south of the Mason-Dixon line. I clearly stated that if you live in an area with CONSISTENT sub 40 degree weather and get snow on a regular basis, you should get snow tires. The issue is not only about snow, temperature is a factor too.

Given the orginal poster lists Colorado as their home state and calls themself Westden, I am willing to bet that they live in West Denver Colorado. That would put them in a region that gets consistent 40 degree weather and some snow during the winter.

There is also the issue of a very wide and very low profile tire. They just do not do very well in snow. Even in moderate snow, a square 255-50-19 or 255-55-18 snow tire will work better than a 275-40-20 & 315-35-20 snow tire set up.

I live in NYC and I am up in the Pocono mountains and Adirondacks regularly in the winter. I always get a kick out of the people with all season tires having trouble getting up the hill with 4-6 inches of snow. From first hand experience, I watched a E70 35i not get up the hill to our house while I drove around him in my E70 50i. The difference, I had 255-55-18 Blizzaks while he had all season 20's on his vehicle.

He was on a staggered 275/315 set up with Toyo Proxeses.

Coming up to our house is a fairly steep hill. There are 4 houses at the top. Very few people with all season tires make it up in snow. The ones that do are brave enough to get a good run at it and try not to lose momentum. Getting down without snow tires is an E ticket ride.

This is exactly why I didn't get the gorgeous 20s. The various all-seaons can't match a winter tire at all. Makes more sense to run summers on the 20s and get a second set of wheels.

Honestly, if you live in a place with cold weather and snow, I can't see any downside to having dedicated winter tires.

If you can afford a relatively new BMW, you can afford under $2,000 for snow tires.

If you lease, using snow tires may save mean you do not need to buy that last set of run flats when you turn it in. Sell the snow tires and I bet you are close to breaking even.

So I figured I'd come back and provide an update.

I'm running the 20 inch staggered setup and I've switched over to the Continental DWS's.

There have been 2 snow storms here in the last week, so if course I've taken the car out to experiment before and after the plows were coming through. I also took my family members 4.8is with the 20's because he has taken the 20's off and put dedicated 19 inch 255 snows). So I have a fairly good comparison reference.

Without snow, the DWS's are fantastic tires. Very smooth ride, good handling, and excellent low noise. A significant improvement over the run flat's that originally were on the car. Absolutely love them.

The great news is, the DWS's are also FANTASTIC in the snow. We took both X5's up the same course and routes and ran into no situation the DWS's couldn't match the dedicated snow's. Slow crawls up steep hills, descents with lots of braking, extreme and controlled handling comparisons. Highway, local roads, back roads. Bottom line, the DWS's are about as close to dedicated snow tires I've experienced in all seasons.

Additionally, I was amazed the 315's didn't seem to have much effect.

My conclusion, for anyone trying to decide if they should go the DWS route or use dedicated snow's, unless you are running in very extreme climates or locations, the DWS's will perform amazingly well even in the 20 inch setup. You can take the comments from the peanut gallery not running them with a very large grain of salt.

For many of us, storing and changing over dedicated snow tires is a pain. The DWS setup in the staggered 20's IMO make that changeover completely unnecessary in my region (about 1 hour north of NYC).

Best of luck!

Originally Posted by clinkinfo

Based upon personal experience, or a guess?

Has anyone actually been running the 20 all seasons in the snow and have some real feedback?

I have the 20" Michelin all seasons. While they aren't winter tires, they work very well in the snow and mediocre on ice -- but this is what I expected. Just spent a week in the mountains with packed snow and the tires worked well. Haven't tried deep snow yet, but I suspect they will work fine for general street driving.

I love to see a thread where so many people that know "the" right answer eventhough they all have different answers.

So here's my right answer for me, myself, and I. I buy Winter tires, all-season tires, and/or Summer tires based upon the car and my intended use. For my 650xi where performance driving will matter the most, I have two sets of wheels/tires. Both sets are performance oriented set-ups - BBS forged wheels with Michelin PSS and Michelin Pilot Alpin PA-3. If I had selected "better" Winter tires, I would have to endure longer wet and dry stopping distances and less lateral grip thoughout he entire Winter. I might slide a bit more in the snow with the Pilots, but I only drive in the snow 10 of the 90 days of the Winter, so I went with the overall max performance over the course of the entire Winter, not just the days it snows.

Now for my X5M, I have plenty of experience with all-season tires with SUVs and trucks. Some were good all-seasons in the Winter and some were bad all-seasons in the Winter. A good all-season like the DWS will provide adequate performance in the snow and excellent dry and wet performance the other 80 days, so thats what I am putting on my X5M. Also, the ultra-high performance all-season DWS will out perform the stock Bridgestone Summer tire in the warm weather too.

So, will the staggered setup hurt the snow traction? A bit, but as a guy who understands how his vehicles handle while in loss of traction conditions (I practice) I'm certian climbing the 13-16% slope that is my long winding driveway won't be a problem. So remember spinning tires aren't necessarily a problem, they might just a different driving mode. When snow covered, my RWD 335d usually requires a light and continuous spin to get up my drivewway even with non-staggered Winter tires.

For those of you who say all-seasons don't excel at anything, that's completely wrong, they excel in the transistional season with better braking and traction than either Summer or Winter tires.