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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:53 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Actually, I HAVE driven the car fully equipped and I think it definitely drives like a Buick more than a lexus. If you've driven the Lucerne or Regal, it is fairly similar. Not exact, but I think closer. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what you like. To each his/her own.
I am disappointed with the departure from BMW's core feel, which Car and Driver and Consumer Reports have stated many times.

REad these reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

AND

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

When car and driver calls a BMW "spooky" you really have to think twice, unless you are looking for a different target.

Now, importantly I am not saying that the current BMW is a worse car - it is just different. Some people want a lexus/buick/F10 and others like a "sports" feel. I dont know why that causes angst on either side.
Are we going to repeat ourselves from 1 thread to another thread? Or how about throwing in a further negative review, and I respond with a positive one? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/dri...cle7125818.ece

Since you say you are the enthusiast and regard the F10 as a Buick, how is the 2007-2008 7 series a car for the enthusiast but not the F10?

Or how about something more constructive, some of you guys letting me know which car is the king in its class, since the F10 is allegedly not so?
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  #27  
Old 10-19-2010, 09:06 PM
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momo_oo[][]oo momo_oo[][]oo is offline
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I haven't drove one, but I'm sure his review has way too much exaggeration that the 5 is not what it used to be.
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  #28  
Old 10-19-2010, 10:49 PM
aleckg aleckg is offline
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BTW, what about steering in the current 7 series? I haven't read in reviews about problems with their steering. Do they also have "numb" feeling, but it's accepted for that class, or the steering in 7 series is currently better than in 5 series (taking into account that 7s are bigger)? As I understand, 7 series still have hydraulic steering, unlike non x-drive F10s.
Also, is there consensus about steering in x-drive vs non x-drive F10s? Again, one is hydraulic and the other one is electric.
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:32 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by sambb View Post
I am glad it is amazing! You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel! I have no problem with it! I find the car lacking in enthusiast feel. But your opinion is valuable t you. But I would never buy that type of car at this point, I am more of an enthusiast. Best of luck with your car however!
When I said amazing I was referring to the handling in high speed maneuvers. It may feel like a Lexus or a Buick, but it drives and handles better than my 650i or E39 M5. It feels different, but it actually handles better. The rear drive versions will handle better because of the availability of four wheel steering, and the xDrive versions will handle better because the instantaneous torque vectoring rear to front in high speed maneuvers. To me this is the essence of enthusiastic driving, not the feel. To me performance is the important part of enthusiastic driving, feel is a secondary consideration.

But please don't accuse me of "You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel!" If that were true why would I have owned an E39 M5, 540i sport, and 650i sport. In 1992 I test drove back to back the Lexus LS 400 and the new BMW 740i. There was no comparison. I even equipped my new 740 with the EDC so I could have the option of comfort or sport dampers. The first time I drove a car on a racetrack was at Bridgehampton in 1974. I even won a couple of trophies in road rally competitions as a young man. I have been an "enthusiast" since I got my license in 1964, and have read every issue of R&T and C&D since then. I have driven all the M cars on the track at the BMW facility in South Carolina. So, please don't insult me personally by saying "You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel!"

If you think that any Lexus or Buick can keep up on the road or the track with a fully equipped 550i with either xDrive or IAS, I think you are sadly mistaken. I have owned an E39 M5 and can tell you the properly equipped 550i outperforms the M5, and to me it doesn't matter if you think it feels like a Buick or Lexus. What matters to me is performance.

As I have said many times before, the only real criticism of the 550i is the absence of the option of getting real high performance summer tires such as the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFTs that were OE on my 650i sport. But this is not the car's fault and is easily fixed with an additional expenditure of less than $2000. I am even giving strong consideration to spending $5000 to both change the tires and add the Dinan software to the car. I guess you might think that 495hp and 573 lb ft of torque is strictly for the type of guy who likes the the "lexus/buick feel". Good Grief!
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Last edited by richschneid; 10-20-2010 at 05:46 AM.
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  #30  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:39 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by Newmanium View Post
That's a convenient excuse - they're reviewing a car with the options most people will end up buying. In the past, this never moved a BMW into Lexus-land, no base BMW has ever driven like a Lexus (or been supposed to!). And the numb steering feel hasn't been fixed by any add-on package according to any independent reviewer (or anybody unbiased on these boards). I test drove the 550i with IAS and full suspension packages, and the steering was extremely numb compared to my base, non-sport, 530i.

Nitpick the review all you want, they're echoing what a lot of enthusiasts on here have been saying.
Well it seems the only thing we disagree about is whether or not the steering is "numb". This is a completely subjective assessment. I don't think it's so "numb" it just has a lighter feel. I think it is very responsive and accurate, and it has adequate "feedback" for my taste in very hard driving. But this is purely subjective. I think the only thing my car needs is max performance summer tires instead of grand touring tires. This can be easily fixed.
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  #31  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:40 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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The F10 is over reliant on electronics for suspension and steering. Plus they are trying to be too broad and not decisive about what the F10 is all about. They are trying to do all things well. As a direct result everything is compromised in terms of luxury and sport. They rely on electronic doo dads to do this amd it does not work. Plus throw in good old fashioned German determination and stubbornness and the 5 Series as we know it is seriously compromised.
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  #32  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:45 AM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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I have this simple minded view of the modern consumer world. Everything can be split into two categories: "experience" or "commodity". For example, an off-the-rack suit from Target is "commodity" where all that matters is price and reasonable performance. An Armani suit is "experience" because there is more to it than the mere physical clothing: it's the special feeling of being fitted, the nicer feeling material, the slightly more tailored look and, yes, the bragging rights of the brand.
Similarly with cars. You can buy a Toyota for $17k and it gets you reliably where you want to go. But if you seek an experience, you will buy a BMW or Mercedes or Lexus, whatever. Each has its own market. But for a car to be successful, it has to cater to a particular market seeking a particular experience. So, if BMW is the "ultimate driving machine", that embodies the experience. If different aspects of that experience no longer fit coherently with one another - the car performs well objectively, but doesn't feel right, which is, in my mind, the core of the criticism - then the "BMW experience" is no longer there. And I don't think you can virtually create that experience by push buttons.
Perhaps this is why BMW changed its slogan - they are no longer selling the "driving machine" experience. They are selling the "joy" experience. So the enthusiasts who are still after the "driving machine" experience must look elsewhere.

Last edited by kocsis; 10-20-2010 at 05:51 AM.
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  #33  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:55 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
The F10 is over reliant on electronics for suspension and steering. Plus they are trying to be too broad and not decisive about what the F10 is all about. They are trying to do all things well. As a direct result everything is compromised in terms of luxury and sport. They rely on electronic doo dads to do this amd it does not work. Plus throw in good old fashioned German determination and stubbornness and the 5 Series as we know it is seriously compromised.
As we have discussed before, the issue may be one of subjective sportiness versus objective performance. It is the computer controls that make the F10 perform better than the "5 series as we know it". To me having the luxury and refinement of a Lexus LS 460 combined with the performance of an E39 M5 is very, very sweet indeed. Add in the winter capabilities of an SUV and you have what I consider to be an engineering miracle. It's just different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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  #34  
Old 10-20-2010, 06:38 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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BMW has consistently marketed the subjective. Look at their current Joy campaign. That is not about a bunch of computer instruments and their readings. I care nothing about the luxury and refinement of a Lexus. If I wanted that I would have bought a Lexus, which I would never do. If I wanted a 4 wheel drive engineering miracle I would have bought an Audi. I want what the 5 Series has always been until now, a BMW Sports Sedan. I wanted a Sports Package with true sports components, not a sport aesthetic package. The sport part of the F10 is a major disappointment. Unfortunately that is why I and other enthusiasts have purchased BMW's in the past. Certainly I am not the only person raising these questions about the F10. Our concerns, regardless of what instruments show, are quite real. Hopefully BMW will fix their blunders as they have in the past. Immediate cheap fixes would be to offer Sport Springs to the purchasers of the F10 with free installation and adjust the software for the suspension and steering.

Whatevever the fix is, it should be retoactive and a retrofit for those of us BMW faithful that trusted that BMW would deliver a a true Sorts Sedan in the F10.
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  #35  
Old 10-20-2010, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
BMW has consistently marketed the subjective. Look at their current Joy campaign. That is not about a bunch of computer instruments and their readings. I care nothing about the luxury and refinement of a Lexus. If I wanted that I would have bought a Lexus, which I would never do. If I wanted a 4 wheel drive engineering miracle I would have bought an Audi. I want what the 5 Series has always been until now, a BMW Sports Sedan. I wanted a Sports Package with true sports components, not a sport aesthetic package. The sport part of the F10 is a major disappointment. Unfortunately that is why I and other enthusiasts have purchased BMW's in the past. Certainly I am not the only person raising these questions about the F10. Our concerns, regardless of what instruments show, are quite real. Hopefully BMW will fix their blunders as they have in the past. Immediate cheap fixes would be to offer Sport Springs to the purchasers of the F10 with free installation and adjust the software for the suspension and steering.

Whatevever the fix is, it should be retoactive and a retrofit for those of us BMW faithful that trusted that BMW would deliver a a true Sorts Sedan in the F10.
You'll have to wait for the new 3 series (F30). It's more likely to be the car that inherits the previous 5 series DNA. Meanwhile, everyone who laments the loss of the ultimate driving machine with the discontinuation of the E60 should take note of the fact that the F10, for all of its alleged shortcomings, has no real competition in the luxury sports niche.
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  #36  
Old 10-20-2010, 08:13 AM
bikerboy bikerboy is offline
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To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully. Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this. Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering. It's going to drive me crazy. I know I'll never get used to it. I know what the steering of a BMW is supposed to feel like (like knowing pornography when I see it, as a famous Supreme Ct. Justice once said) and this is not it.
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  #37  
Old 10-20-2010, 08:42 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by bikerboy View Post
To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully. Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this. Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering. It's going to drive me crazy. I know I'll never get used to it. I know what the steering of a BMW is supposed to feel like (like knowing pornography when I see it, as a famous Supreme Ct. Justice once said) and this is not it.
Funny, every time I drive my car around town and in parking lots I say to myself, "Boy do I like this steering at low speeds". I also like the way it tightens up on the interstate as I do a fair amount of intercity driving.

BTW, you should know that your 550i xDrive does NOT have electric steering assist. All the xDrive cars have hydralic steering assist.
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2010, 09:08 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Originally Posted by bikerboy View Post
To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully.
Many of us have stated that the steering tightens up "at speed". Glad to know that you have now experienced that.

Quote:
Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this.
Wait about another week. You will start liking it, IMO. You don't need heavy steering at 20 mph, IMO. What BMW were you driving before? My '08 335i steering wasn't all that heavy to begin with.

Quote:
Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering.
It's not "electronic" steering. There is an electric motor that supplies the assist in lieu of a hydraulic pump. This is not a drive-by-wire system (which to me is implied with the term "electronic").
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  #39  
Old 10-20-2010, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Funny, every time I drive my car around town and in parking lots I say to myself, "Boy do I like this steering at low speeds". I also like the way it tightens up on the interstate as I do a fair amount of intercity driving.
+1

Quote:
BTW, you should know that your 550i xDrive does NOT have electric steering assist. All the xDrive cars have hydralic steering assist.
(I don't think he has an xDrive)
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  #40  
Old 10-20-2010, 09:20 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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+1



(I don't think he has an xDrive)
He wrote: "on my new 550ix Sport". But I just noticed that he lists his car as a 550i, not an ix, even though he did post "550ix".
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Last edited by richschneid; 10-20-2010 at 09:24 AM.
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  #41  
Old 10-20-2010, 10:01 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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On my way to work today in my E60 535xi loaner I thought about something that made me more pessimistic about the likelyhood of "fixing" the F10. The loaner has basic setup, i.e no ars or sports tuned suspension and rides on relatively narrow all season rubber, however it is fun to drive. It seems that the E60 has sports sedan carved into it's dna and you can't hide it even with lesser components. I find myself taking any opportunity to link "fast" turns (within the speed limit of course ) with a grin on my face. The F10 on the other hand seems to have cruiser in it's dna and not even "sports" components can hide it. Perhaps a full re-design is needed to bring the sports sedan funfer back. Hopefully though bmw will bring out it's magic wand and show me wrong otherwise i fear that the new M5 will be a Bill Gates version of an american muscle car...

Last edited by solstice; 10-20-2010 at 11:43 AM.
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  #42  
Old 10-20-2010, 10:42 AM
BravoMikeWiskey BravoMikeWiskey is offline
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The review seems to be right on the money. I test drove the 550i Sport during the Ultimate Drive in June and the car had a lot of motor but was very 'blah' drive-wise. I remember thinking to myself that the car was a very comfortable cruiser but not a very sporty one. A few months later, I had a chance to drive a 528i Sport from Munich to Monaco to Frankfurt and thought the same thing: plenty of motor, but not much in a way of sportiness. Seems like a new direction for BMW.
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  #43  
Old 10-20-2010, 11:37 AM
sambb sambb is offline
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The review seems to be right on the money. I test drove the 550i Sport during the Ultimate Drive in June and the car had a lot of motor but was very 'blah' drive-wise. I remember thinking to myself that the car was a very comfortable cruiser but not a very sporty one. A few months later, I had a chance to drive a 528i Sport from Munich to Monaco to Frankfurt and thought the same thing: plenty of motor, but not much in a way of sportiness. Seems like a new direction for BMW.
Yep, increasingly, this is the consensus...
But it will still sell in high numbers, but probably not to the BMW faithful.
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  #44  
Old 10-20-2010, 12:11 PM
jmr99vet jmr99vet is online now
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Have had my 535 for 2 months. After reading some of the posts above, I am not sure I would have liked the "old" version. I love the car. Just proves, everyone has an opion of what a car should feel like.
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  #45  
Old 10-20-2010, 02:04 PM
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Z06 to 2011 535I

I recently traded my 2009 Z06 3LZ for a 535I with Sport Package etc. I tracked my Z06 on many occasions including a dozen trips to VIR and other road courses, a few to Rockingham 1/4, Piedmont 1/8, and Charlotte Motor Speedway. I've also been to Spring Mountain (Corvette mecca) a couple of times and the BMW Advanced Driving School, These experiences don't make me an expert; however, they do relate to the fact that I've driven cars very fast and around a whole lot of corners.

I traded because I added to my family and the Z06 just wasn't practical anymore; however, I'm very pleased with the 535I and during a recent mountain trip I found that although it obviously wasn't a Z06, it can be driven with serious intensity and provide loads of fun. Of course, the added luxious interior, comfort and back seat are greatly appreciated.

So all you entusiasts, which I must assume have far more experience than me...just enjoy the car you have and learn to adjust for the lack of various handling inequities. I have.

Keep the rubber down...
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  #46  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:42 PM
jsf1993 jsf1993 is offline
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Folks: The new F10 is a great car. Is it as much fun to drive as my 2008 535xi? No. But, is my new 2011 535xi fun to drive? YES! I spent 6 days with it very recently thanks to European Delivery and LOVED the car. As I noted in other posts, my car has the sports package, sports transmission and dynamic handling package. Equipped with those packages, it handled extremely well and takes corners and curves better than my present 2008 535xi.

I know that everyone has his/her own tastes and preferences when it comes to styling. But, I think that the new model is hands-down better looking than the one it replaced. In my opinion, the new styling is gorgeous, inside and out.

Has the personality of the car changed? Yes. It is much more luxurious and feels bigger than the model it replaced. I've owned every 5 series BMW's iteration since 1986 and each succeeding iteration was more refined and luxurious (and probably bigger) than the one it replaced. As I moved from one iteration to the next and newer one, there were always some elements of the prior model that I liked more INITIALLY over similar elements in the newer model. But, with time, I came to appreciate the overall improvement in the newer model as compared to the one it replaced.

This model change reminds me of the change from the E28 to the E34. Those 2 models were vastly different and the E34 was MUCH more refined than the E28 (and, yes, less sporty than the E28). But, most BMW enthusiasts now agree that the E34 (like the E39 that followed it) was a classic and represented a major leap forward over the E28. Most of us know all too well that the E60 was not well received by many BMW E39 owners when it first came onto the scene. While much of the controversy over the E60 was over its "unique" styling and electronics, many thought that it too was less "sporty" than the E39. (Not only did the E60 feel "bigger" than the E39, but BMW also eliminated the driver's cockpit in the design and introduced the i-Drive.) Keep that in mind when you judge the new F10. Once again, it rides differently than the model it replaced. But, I think that the F10 is destined to be recognized as a classic 5 series in the future, a status that the E60 never achieved.

Last edited by jsf1993; 10-20-2010 at 03:49 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:14 PM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Folks: The new F10 is a great car. Is it as much fun to drive as my 2008 535xi? No. But, is my new 2011 535xi fun to drive? YES! I spent 6 days with it very recently thanks to European Delivery and LOVED the car. As I noted in other posts, my car has the sports package, sports transmission and dynamic handling package. Equipped with those packages, it handled extremely well and takes corners and curves better than my present 2008 535xi.

I know that everyone has his/her own tastes and preferences when it comes to styling. But, I think that the new model is hands-down better looking than the one it replaced. In my opinion, the new styling is gorgeous, inside and out.

Has the personality of the car changed? Yes. It is much more luxurious and feels bigger than the model it replaced. I've owned every 5 series BMW's iteration since 1986 and each succeeding iteration was more refined and luxurious (and probably bigger) than the one it replaced. As I moved from one iteration to the next and newer one, there were always some elements of the prior model that I liked more INITIALLY over similar elements in the newer model. But, with time, I came to appreciate the overall improvement in the newer model as compared to the one it replaced.

This model change reminds me of the change from the E28 to the E34. Those 2 models were vastly different and the E34 was MUCH more refined than the E28 (and, yes, less sporty than the E28). But, most BMW enthusiasts now agree that the E34 (like the E39 that followed it) was a classic and represented a major leap forward over the E28. Most of us know all too well that the E60 was not well received by many BMW E39 owners when it first came onto the scene. While much of the controversy over the E60 was over its "unique" styling and electronics, many thought that it too was less "sporty" than the E39. (Not only did the E60 feel "bigger" than the E39, but BMW also eliminated the driver's cockpit in the design and introduced the i-Drive.) Keep that in mind when you judge the new F10. Once again, it rides differently than the model it replaced. But, I think that the F10 is destined to be recognized as a classic 5 series in the future, a status that the E60 never achieved.
Well stated, IMO. Unfortunately, the nay-sayers here (and I'm not one of them) care nothing about whether the car actually performs better than previous models, they only care about the C&D statement regarding "numb steering". I'm approaching my 1200 mile break in and I've been driving a bit more aggressively -- my non-sport 535i is a blast. It's as nimble as my '08 335i, steering is spot on and the smooth power delivery of the 8-spd AT is phenomenal, IMO (coming from a 6MT).
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Prior: 2011 535i AT | Black Sapphire/Cinnamon | Premium | Heated Sts | Nav | Sirius | Anthracite Hdr & Trim
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Last edited by markl53; 10-20-2010 at 06:23 PM.
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  #48  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:41 PM
jsf1993 jsf1993 is offline
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Many of them would never have purchased an E60 if they read the magazine reviews of that model over the years. The toughest adjustment I ever experienced as a 5 series owner was moving from an E39 (which I LOVED) to the E60 (which I grew to love over time).
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  #49  
Old 10-20-2010, 07:11 PM
Detour28 Detour28 is offline
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It's all about the reveiwer!!

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...rst-drive.html
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  #50  
Old 10-21-2010, 06:07 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsf1993 View Post
Many of them would never have purchased an E60 if they read the magazine reviews of that model over the years. The toughest adjustment I ever experienced as a 5 series owner was moving from an E39 (which I LOVED) to the E60 (which I grew to love over time).
The E60 was a very innovative body style that was widely emulated. The car drove and handled fantastic. The E60 was one of those innovative rare cars that I would categorize as great. I believe that the F10, which was totally new from the ground up and cloaked in a very conservative design, will have steering and suspension "improvements" in the future. Hopefully BMW will do so on a rolling basis starting with software modifications to better dial in suspension and steering for enhanced sport performance and feel.
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