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X3 F25 (2011 - current)
The latest X3 brings some added style and some new features to the BMW SUV family. Talk about the new F25 now!

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  #26  
Old 12-05-2010, 10:34 AM
X3forlife X3forlife is offline
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Originally Posted by BMW FAN95 View Post
do they even have one as an option on the x3
I'm sure they will in the future. They just haven't committed to it. The one i have is the one i the headrests. I think starting in 07 they moved away from that to one that hangs over the seat backs. I want one that looks like it is fully integrated into the car and one that plays the same tings on both screens. I also want it that when you wan to play something there aren't a lot of tacky wires hanging around.

The seat back ones are fine. What I don't want is one that hangs from the roof or that pops out of the arm rest (like the X6). I like the duel screen models. We'll see.

What would be cool is if you could get TV, internet, play DVDs, ipod and possibly games. If they are truly offering a free mobile hot spot, the PS3 offers solutions to most of that...if they can find a discrete place to hide it. Now that would be something to boast about...lol

Too bad BMW is so conservative in the US. When I read on the BMW world website I see some countries have TV and internet for their rear passengers.
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2010, 05:45 PM
BMW FAN95 BMW FAN95 is offline
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i hate that we dnt get diesels in the U.S well we do but in the most random models
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  #28  
Old 12-05-2010, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BMW FAN95 View Post
i hate that we dnt get diesels in the U.S well we do but in the most random models
Given my poll, there just isn't a business case to be made for a diesel X3 model. Keep in mind that folks on Bimmerfest are already more likely to accept diesels, so the skew towards petrol models would likely be even more pronounced in the real world.

The models that BMW chose 3 years ago were not random. They chose a drivetrain that would have multiple applications and be most likely to appeal to buyers while maintaining the premium market brand that BMW NA strives to achieve. The cost of tweaking an existing diesel to meet California emissions standards is pretty high; it's not like they just plopped some US-spec headlights onto a X5 3.0sd, they had to design the whole Urea-injection and tweak the engine characteristics.

In regards to entertainment systems, BMW has had things like Internet and TV function for many years now. There are potential liability and legal problems installing it in the US.

Last edited by AzNMpower32; 12-05-2010 at 06:24 PM.
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2010, 06:34 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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iPad

Quote:
Originally Posted by X3forlife View Post

What would be cool is if you could get TV, internet, play DVDs, ipod and possibly games. If they are truly offering a free mobile hot spot, the PS3 offers solutions to most of that...if they can find a discrete place to hide it. Now that would be something to boast about...lol

Too bad BMW is so conservative in the US. When I read on the BMW world website I see some countries have TV and internet for their rear passengers.
I think I stated this multiple times before but again you dont listen. It can't be any easier for anyone than to use an iPad. The brackets are so simple my six year could install this.

Since the controls are all touch. It uses either a wifi or G4 connection you will have all the features you discuss and more. Plus buying two will still be cheaper than anything that offers the same features and you can take these with you in a click.

As far as syncing them to play the same thing. Anything is possible, but this way with two kids then can each watch something different if they want to as well.
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  #30  
Old 12-07-2010, 09:27 AM
X3forlife X3forlife is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
I think I stated this multiple times before but again you dont listen. It can't be any easier for anyone than to use an iPad. The brackets are so simple my six year could install this.

Since the controls are all touch. It uses either a wifi or G4 connection you will have all the features you discuss and more. Plus buying two will still be cheaper than anything that offers the same features and you can take these with you in a click.

As far as syncing them to play the same thing. Anything is possible, but this way with two kids then can each watch something different if they want to as well.
I've read your ipad suggestions before and actually the bracket was not news as I knew about it as soon as it came out. I am not impressed with the way it looks.
I asked you before about getting them to play the same thing and you stated that you thought it was possible but never explainend how. To me that is one of the coolest features and it wouldn't be the same without that. To each his own though. If you like that system, get it.

And I listen...maybe I'm not impressed with "all is possible" instead of a real solution. I thought you might know but if not, you don't have to keep telling me about the bracket that everybody knows about.

Last edited by X3forlife; 12-07-2010 at 09:29 AM.
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  #31  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:51 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Originally Posted by X3forlife View Post
I've read your ipad suggestions before and actually the bracket was not news as I knew about it as soon as it came out. I am not impressed with the way it looks.
I asked you before about getting them to play the same thing and you stated that you thought it was possible but never explainend how. To me that is one of the coolest features and it wouldn't be the same without that. To each his own though. If you like that system, get it.

And I listen...maybe I'm not impressed with "all is possible" instead of a real solution. I thought you might know but if not, you don't have to keep telling me about the bracket that everybody knows about.

With the way you carry on about having others do things for you, I figured it would be moot explaining how to sync two together since your mind is already made up.

It ok, but as my sig says I don't like paying others things I can do myself it is counter-productive and wasteful imo.

If you want to spend your money that way--its your money. Please let us know what you picked out and what you paid for it. I think we are all curious on that one.
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2010, 07:17 AM
X3forlife X3forlife is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
With the way you carry on about having others do things for you, I figured it would be moot explaining how to sync two together since your mind is already made up.

It ok, but as my sig says I don't like paying others things I can do myself it is counter-productive and wasteful imo.

If you want to spend your money that way--its your money. Please let us know what you picked out and what you paid for it. I think we are all curious on that one.
So do you know how to sync or not? I am interested.

I think you are generalizing. Just because I don't like to change my own tire doesn't mean I don't like meddling with technology. I'm not into mastering manual labor if you are having trouble differentiating the two.
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  #33  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:53 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Originally Posted by X3forlife View Post
So do you know how to sync or not? I am interested.

I think you are generalizing. Just because I don't like to change my own tire doesn't mean I don't like meddling with technology. I'm not into mastering manual labor if you are having trouble differentiating the two.
Yes according to all the mac forums and a simple tool called google you can sync ipads through 3G or wifi. Games, videos, you name it. As I don't have one yet I dont have the exact particulars.

As an example: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=886242

Your more than welcome to buy them for me and I guarantee I can get it done

I am not generalizing simply observing that you don't like to solve problems the way some of us do.

I take a proactive status and figure it out myself and not wait for others to do it for me.
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
Yes according to all the mac forums and a simple tool called google you can sync ipads through 3G or wifi. Games, videos, you name it. As I don't have one yet I dont have the exact particulars.

As an example: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=886242

Your more than welcome to buy them for me and I guarantee I can get it done

I am not generalizing simply observing that you don't like to solve problems the way some of us do.

I take a proactive status and figure it out myself and not wait for others to do it for me.
OK...If you think you know enough to make that assessment that is your analysis but I will say I am a great problem solver...I'm just not into manual labor that much. You seem to think you know me and "the rest of us" well enough to make that assessment. Fine. lol

Interestingly enough today I saw that new smaller "apple TV" device. That may be able to sync things. Thanks for the info.
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  #35  
Old 12-09-2010, 05:58 AM
SWMc SWMc is offline
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Originally Posted by BMW FAN95 View Post
so premium sound is not worth it,,,,, thanks for the info now i know the 875 dollar option is crap
The premium sound system in my E83 X3 is considerably better than the base system.

The only other alternative is to "frankenstein" your car which I'm not a fan of doing to a BMW.

I suggest you listen to both and decide for yourself. I know there are some that think the speakers are not big enough and I have just one word for those folks Bose.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ss_6/index.jsp
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  #36  
Old 12-09-2010, 07:10 AM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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The premium sound system in my E83 X3 is considerably better than the base system.

The only other alternative is to "frankenstein" your car which I'm not a fan of doing to a BMW.

I suggest you listen to both and decide for yourself. I know there are some that think the speakers are not big enough and I have just one word for those folks Bose.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ss_6/index.jsp
Frankenstein bemoans ugly and you cant tell except for the HU that I have made any changes except it sounds good.

You can however change the sound system and keep the HU if you like, which is probably what I will do should I get the new X3. The HU becomes a "dumb" unit and essentially just a control point when done.

And I agree Bose can do a good job in sound, pity BMW isn't smart enough to realize that and sub contract them. So until that happens I will continue to recommend changing out your sound and helping any that need some technical expertise and advice.
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  #37  
Old 12-09-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
Frankenstein bemoans ugly and you cant tell except for the HU that I have made any changes except it sounds good.

You can however change the sound system and keep the HU if you like, which is probably what I will do should I get the new X3. The HU becomes a "dumb" unit and essentially just a control point when done.

And I agree Bose can do a good job in sound, pity BMW isn't smart enough to realize that and sub contract them. So until that happens I will continue to recommend changing out your sound and helping any that need some technical expertise and advice.
Are you an acoustical engineer?
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  #38  
Old 12-09-2010, 09:26 AM
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All depends on your perspective I guess. I am used to higher fidelity and the fact that they use 4 inch speakers tells volumes in the audiophile world.

A speaker of that size cannot create a good range of sound no matter how many tricks you employ.
Virtually Invisible® cube speakers—each only 3" high—deliver high-fidelity sound for music and movies. Enjoy premium performance from speakers so small you can place them nearly anywhere and they seem to disappear into your décor.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ss_6/index.jsp


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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
And I agree Bose can do a good job in sound, pity BMW isn't smart enough to realize that and sub contract them. So until that happens I will continue to recommend changing out your sound and helping any that need some technical expertise and advice.
Please explain?
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  #39  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SWMc View Post
Virtually Invisible® cube speakers-each only 3" high-deliver high-fidelity sound for music and movies. Enjoy premium performance from speakers so small you can place them nearly anywhere and they seem to disappear into your décor.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ss_6/index.jsp




Please explain?

I have actually worked with engineers at Bose and they do a good job. However, BMW subcontracts our sound systems out to some outfit in Czechoslovakia, and I don't know any reputable electronics developed there (see attached pic). The speakers are made of paper and plastic (see attached as well -most are made of polypropylene, Kevlar and reinforced aluminum). To me it's down right embarrassing. While others (Hi End car mfg) tote brand names like BOSE, etc... we get some no name piece of electronics that I could have built better in sixth grade.

A lot of electronics after market company's have gotten smart and realized that people don't want to change their H/U or the cosmetic appeal they provide. So they build interface boxes that will intervene after the H/U before the speakers and allow additional amplifiers, processors, components, etc.... "behind the scenes".

So if you feel like I do that the sound systems are a joke or just want to improve or replace one. Let me know and I will be happy to help.
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  #40  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:56 PM
SWMc SWMc is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
I have actually worked with engineers at Bose and they do a good job. However, BMW subcontracts our sound systems out to some outfit in Czechoslovakia, and I don't know any reputable electronics developed there (see attached pic). The speakers are made of paper and plastic (see attached as well -most are made of polypropylene, Kevlar and reinforced aluminum). To me it's down right embarrassing. While others (Hi End car mfg) tote brand names like BOSE, etc... we get some no name piece of electronics that I could have built better in sixth grade.

A lot of electronics after market company's have gotten smart and realized that people don't want to change their H/U or the cosmetic appeal they provide. So they build interface boxes that will intervene after the H/U before the speakers and allow additional amplifiers, processors, components, etc.... "behind the scenes".

So if you feel like I do that the sound systems are a joke or just want to improve or replace one. Let me know and I will be happy to help.
First of all only the base speakers have paper cones (as do most base car stereo's). Second, the HU is made in the Czech Republic to the exact specifications that BMW dictates. All car companies contract various suppliers to manufacture various components. Where it's made has no bearing on it's quaulity as long as BMW's quality control is good. Third, the premium amp is made in Germany by Lear.

And back to my original question.... How is it that Bose makes good systems with 3" non waveguide speakers? When you say....
Quote:
I am used to higher fidelity and the fact that they use 4 inch speakers tells volumes in the audiophile world. A speaker of that size cannot create a good range of sound no matter how many tricks you employ.
I have the premium stereo in my X3 and I'm very pleased with it. As a matter of fact it's one of the best I've ever heard and I've had or ridden in vehicles with Clarion, Bose and JBL systems that didn't sound any better to me.

I honestly don't know what the deal is but I'm thinking that you had a "wow I could have had a V8" moment. In that you opted for the base stereo, were displeased, so you went to great expense and time to mod your sound system and ended up with a monster that's no better than the one you should have gotten. So now your game is to make outlandish statements like.....
Quote:
I think the hi end sound system in the X3 is one of the worst sound systems I have ever heard in my life let alone the "business" one. However, there are those that seem perfectly happy with overypaying for convenience over sound. and imo they are sadly misinformed.
To try to convice yourself, and everybody else that will listen, that you did the right thing, and anything less is crap. Well this old fart isn't buying it.
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  #41  
Old 12-09-2010, 02:05 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMc View Post
First of all only the base speakers have paper cones (as do most base car stereo's). Second, the HU is made in the Czech Republic to the exact specifications that BMW dictates. All car companies contract various suppliers to manufacture various components. Where it's made has no bearing on it's quaulity as long as BMW's quality control is good. Third, the premium amp is made in Germany by Lear.

And back to my original question.... How is it that Bose makes good systems with 3" non waveguide speakers? When you say....

I have the premium stereo in my X3 and I'm very pleased with it. As a matter of fact it's one of the best I've ever heard and I've had or ridden in vehicles with Clarion, Bose and JBL systems that didn't sound any better to me.

I honestly don't know what the deal is but I'm thinking that you had a "wow I could have had a V8" moment. In that you opted for the base stereo, were displeased, so you went to great expense and time to mod your sound system and ended up with a monster that's no better than the one you should have gotten. So now your game is to make outlandish statements like..... To try to convice yourself, and everybody else that will listen, that you did the right thing, and anything less is crap. Well this old fart isn't buying it.

I went with the base sound system after hearing the "Hi End" one, because I would have ripped that one out too. So it would have been an utter waste of money. And putting up Clarion as a good sound system is like adding a Scion in competition with BMW it shows your lack of expertise and definition of quality sound.

Most base sound systems DO NOT use paper cone speakers any more since that technology is obsolete. Off the shelf Best Buy $20 speakers are better built.

I was being kind about the Bose, but if you really want to know they aren't very well regarded in the audiophile world. This is because they over accentuate the lows and highs and completely disregard the midrange. The term that is used is "Coloring " the audio. However, they (BMW) would do better than what they have now in BMW's since imo there is no where to go but up. I kinda like them still but not in my car. The acoustic tricks they use don't lend them self well to a car environment.

And I can back up my statements with objective data galore as well as professional experience. I started working in the audio industry when I was 11 and have worked for Clear Channel, Disney, and even Boyz II Men over the years to name but a few. I am currently a design engineer for Sirius/XM.

And are these the same folks that gave the exact specs for the wonderful HPFP that has had a recall in the hundreds of thousands of vehicles or the ones that gave the exact specs for the GM6 AT that has now been replaced with the ZF based 8 speed?

After testing the H/U in a sound lab with a military spec Tecktronix scope as well as their other components. Their specs at a 1kHz tone at +4 db have a total harmonic distortion of 1% which is horrible with regards to most units at 0.5% or lower. So if they set their specs there. That is bad.


And I need not convince myself, even the BMW dealerships locally have ask(ed) my advice and agree what I have installed is 10 times better than what BMW offers.

When visiting Russel BMW even the owner (she was there) stopped to listen and was impressed.

So if you like your sound system good. No less than 100 people have contacted me and disagree with you. And yes there are thousands that like their sound system. Ignorance is bliss they say.

As you stated (by your own words) your an "Old Fart" so in my words would be a waste of time upgrading your audio system it to the level I like anyway.

Please before presuming I have buyers remorse or clipping in Bose sales jargon do some more research. Google is your friend.

I have done the research and helped countless people with making improvements, will continue to do so and can back up my comments with objective data. And I stand firm by my comments that the sound systems in the X3 are horrible when compared to an equal priced after market sound system.

If you are ever in Balt-DC area I'd be happy to demo it for you with any music of your choosing.
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Last edited by Evlengr; 12-09-2010 at 02:10 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:46 PM
SWMc SWMc is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
I went with the base sound system after hearing the "Hi End" one, because I would have ripped that one out too. So it would have been an utter waste of money. And putting up Clarion as a good sound system is like adding a Scion in competition with BMW it shows your lack of expertise and definition of quality sound.

Most base sound systems DO NOT use paper cone speakers any more since that technology is obsolete. Off the shelf Best Buy $20 speakers are better built.

I was being kind about the Bose, but if you really want to know they aren't very well regarded in the audiophile world. This is because they over accentuate the lows and highs and completely disregard the midrange. The term that is used is "Coloring " the audio. However, they (BMW) would do better than what they have now in BMW's since imo there is no where to go but up. I kinda like them still but not in my car. The acoustic tricks they use don't lend them self well to a car environment.

And I can back up my statements with objective data galore as well as professional experience. I started working in the audio industry when I was 11 and have worked for Clear Channel, Disney, and even Boyz II Men over the years to name but a few. I am currently a design engineer for Sirius/XM.

And are these the same folks that gave the exact specs for the wonderful HPFP that has had a recall in the hundreds of thousands of vehicles or the ones that gave the exact specs for the GM6 AT that has now been replaced with the ZF based 8 speed?

After testing the H/U in a sound lab with a military spec Tecktronix scope as well as their other components. Their specs at a 1kHz tone at +4 db have a total harmonic distortion of 1% which is horrible with regards to most units at 0.5% or lower. So if they set their specs there. That is bad.


And I need not convince myself, even the BMW dealerships locally have ask(ed) my advice and agree what I have installed is 10 times better than what BMW offers.

When visiting Russel BMW even the owner (she was there) stopped to listen and was impressed.

So if you like your sound system good. No less than 100 people have contacted me and disagree with you. And yes there are thousands that like their sound system. Ignorance is bliss they say.

As you stated (by your own words) your an "Old Fart" so in my words would be a waste of time upgrading your audio system it to the level I like anyway.

Please before presuming I have buyers remorse or clipping in Bose sales jargon do some more research. Google is your friend.

I have done the research and helped countless people with making improvements, will continue to do so and can back up my comments with objective data. And I stand firm by my comments that the sound systems in the X3 are horrible when compared to an equal priced after market sound system.

If you are ever in Balt-DC area I'd be happy to demo it for you with any music of your choosing.
I really do pity your cynical, disconsolate, attitude. You seem like the kind of guy that would rip his otherwise perfectly fine engine apart to find a minor tic. I really do hope you can find happiness with this imperfect world you live in.

I still think you're full of BS.

Last edited by SWMc; 12-09-2010 at 04:06 PM.
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  #43  
Old 12-09-2010, 04:43 PM
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umm Ev wht have you installed i am really curious ( and guys stop arguing bottom line is bmw needs to upgrade the sound systems) and Ev how much did it cost you to upgrade please reply and thanks for all the answers ( to everyone)
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  #44  
Old 12-09-2010, 05:03 PM
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While I had my 2007 X3, I thought the upgraded sound system was decent for what it was. Did it sound better than the base system? Yes. I'm sure it was not up to competing with aftermarket systems, but that's ok. It wasn't designed to do that I'm sure. Could it have been better? Sure. There was a few things that could have been better on that vehicle (transmission and suspension come to mind).

Anyhoo, since this is the F25 forum, I have zero experience with the new X3's sound system. But, I'm sure it's better than Evlengr's.......LOL!
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Last edited by MJS; 12-09-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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  #45  
Old 12-09-2010, 06:24 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMc View Post
I really do pity your cynical, disconsolate, attitude. You seem like the kind of guy that would rip his otherwise perfectly fine engine apart to find a minor tic. I really do hope you can find happiness with this imperfect world you live in.

I still think you're full of BS.

And I too pity your close minded uneducated ways concerning audio. You have no idea what your missing, and seems you'll never try to find out. So you might as well stop posting because I am not appealing to you, but those that want to improve their audio or electronics in their vehicles.

BTW comparing (BOSE) home systems with car audio is like comparing a car to a jet. They are two completely different applications due to acoustics and power.

As far as the intelligent question from BMW Fan95.

The 4 Alpine speakers cost all of $100
1 Boston Acoustic Sub with box $120
Alpine PDX 5.1 Amp $300
Alpine MRF-350 Amp $125
Alpine H/U $300

Labor nothing

So for about the same amount as they charge for the "Better" Sound system I have one that is sonically ten times better than the best BMW has to offer in the X3. And you don't have to believe me since you can't "BS"specs. And the new sound system looks no different from the old one, but hey they have great new cup holders. Now THAT is important.
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Last edited by Evlengr; 12-09-2010 at 06:27 PM.
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  #46  
Old 12-09-2010, 06:58 PM
BMW FAN95 BMW FAN95 is offline
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Thanks for the quick reply Ev and as far as the argument between both of you,,,,, Both of you are right because if you want a better than stock sound system ( by that i mean no hi -fi AKA premium sound) you should get it but if you want a better than what BMW offers you should keep the crappy one they have and upgrade it fot the same amount or less.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:25 PM
MJS MJS is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
And the new sound system looks no different from the old one, but hey they have great new cup holders. Now THAT is important.
Not to belabor the constant bickoring, but it looks a bit different from what I recall the old system being.

"16-speaker, multi-channel system that outputs reproduction of the surround information contained in the stereo signal in a nine-channel format (seven mid- and high- range channels and two central bass channels) as well as 5.1 surround sound from a DVD source. Includes a 600-watt digital amplifier with nine channels. The system compensates for driving noise in smooth steps with speed-dependent equalizing. All-speakers are fitted with very strong, yet compact neodymium drives."
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:16 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Originally Posted by MJS View Post
Not to belabor the constant bickoring, but it looks a bit different from what I recall the old system being.

"16-speaker, multi-channel system that outputs reproduction of the surround information contained in the stereo signal in a nine-channel format (seven mid- and high- range channels and two central bass channels) as well as 5.1 surround sound from a DVD source. Includes a 600-watt digital amplifier with nine channels. The system compensates for driving noise in smooth steps with speed-dependent equalizing. All-speakers are fitted with very strong, yet compact neodymium drives."
Sorry your right about the bickering. Sorry I sank to his level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMc View Post
Are you an acoustical engineer?
I am technically a radio engineer in answer to a previous question.

We are required to have a background in electrical, radio freq, computer science and sometimes more.

I hold degrees and certifications in all the above and more and can be verified with the Society of Broadcast Engineers, WVU , Villanova, and Micro-soft. How do you like them apples.

And you are right I should reserve judgement on the new sound system as I haven't heard it.

Hopefully their sound is improved as well as the AT.

Guess we will find out when someone here actually owns one.

I'll get back on this once I have test driven one in January.
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2013 S4 Loaded (and NO RFT's) Awesome is an understatement
2008 MT X3 RIP you were a faithful sidekick and will be missed.
2007 AT X3 RIPOS
2005 GC
2000 Jeep Cherokee
1997 Twin Turbo RX-7
1984 GTI Wolfsburg Edition Neuspeed and more

Last edited by Evlengr; 12-09-2010 at 09:26 PM.
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  #49  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:07 PM
X3forlife X3forlife is offline
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Like I said before. Sometimes the less you know and the less dreamworld you experience, the happier you are.
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  #50  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:25 PM
X3forlife X3forlife is offline
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One word about Bose (maybe I disagree with EE a little). lol I'm not familiar with all their products. The one Bose thing I own is the Bose Sounddock for the Ipod. I love it. When I was looking for a portable speaker system for the ipod some years back (and price was no issue at all...was just looking for the best 1 piece system), I tested many and almost all were junk. The Bose Sounddock showed its superiority so I got it. A good song to test with is Beyonce's "Naughty Girl". If you play this on different sound systems, you can hear differences right away.

Props to the Sound dock. I saw a commercial that they have made it battery rechargeable now...that's not the one I am referring to so I can't vouch for that. The plug in one is tight for a portable 1 piece system. It's the best I've found.
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