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  #1  
Old 01-19-2004, 07:17 AM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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ZHP "shudders" - not an idle problem (long)

Hi,

I've been having a strange issue with my 03 ZHP since it was new. I'm taking it into the dealer again this afternoon, but wondered if anyone had any thoughts on what the cause might be. I'm don't expect any fault codes in the computer, which makes it hard for them to track down problems. I also have the "standard" idle problem where it dips low from time to time, but have been able to convince myself through various tests that this is unrelated to that...

The issue I have is an engine "pulsing" which causes the car to shudder. When at idle, the RPM's won't vary much or at all, but the engine will randomly "pulse" (kick, vibrate, it's hard to explain) causing the whole car to shudder. This seems independent of gas type (my SA had me try 89 to help with the idle problem, which, BTW, it did). Also, seems equally bad on hot / cold engines. It's pretty random. Sometimes it's so bad that passengers will notice then entire car shaking and will ask about it. Other times I'm the only one that notices as my hands and feet are on the control surfaces of the car. It only happens when unloaded (ie. idling) and doesn't go away if gas is applied so it seems independent of throttle position when it occurs. It doesn't always happen though, and can vary in intensity from one stop light to the next. Previously, the fuel delivery system was thoroughly tested so I don't think the problem lies there. Also, it's been checked 3 times and fault codes can be found in the computer in the past. This problem seems to be getting worse as time goes on (also weather is colder and colder, so that could be a factor).

Any one else with a similar experience in their BMW or other cars? Any engine gurus out there have any idea what could cause it?

Thanks!

Josh
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  #2  
Old 01-19-2004, 08:36 AM
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MMME30W MMME30W is offline
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Welcome to the 'Fest...

Maybe gasoline? I'd defer to the board guru's, and you can make of this what you will, but the most recent repair on my Mini (1967) was a result of a symptom like this (engine stutter.) New fuel pump solved it right away.

Now, mind you, there are some subtle differences between a 1967 Mini and a 2003 BMW 330 ZHP but maybe you want to try some different high test fuel? Or have you done that?

Sorry not to be more helpful...good luck...
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  #3  
Old 01-19-2004, 08:45 AM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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Hi WingSpan,

Thanks! I was using 93 octane only and had severe idle issues. My SA suggested that the idle issues were a software problem and there seemed to be some link to high octane. We decided I try the next best here in Texas (89) and see how it went... Much to my amazement, it solved 99% of my idling problems (every once in awhile it will dip 300 - 400 RPM). It didn't, however, address the shuddering problem at all.

As an experiment I went back to 93 octane for 2 tanks and had to keep my foot on the gas at lights to keep the engine running from time to time. It was pretty ugly. My SA has hinted that a software fix for idle (especially with ZHP) is in the works and to just hang out on that one for a bit. In the meantime I'm back to 89 gas to keep everything running.

WRT the fuel flow system, we (the SA and I) are keeping that in the back of our minds, but it has been throughly tested by the dealership (even had to wait 2 days for it to "re-pressurize" to be sure all was good). I'm hoping that any issues there would have been caught, but it's hard to say with no fault codes on the computer.

Thanks again,

Josh
  #4  
Old 01-20-2004, 09:11 PM
Sierra_Nevada Sierra_Nevada is offline
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I'm not sure if it works, but I ran across this. Let me know so I can do it.haha
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...ghlight=idling
  #5  
Old 01-21-2004, 06:04 PM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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Hi,

I got the car back from the dealer. SA and I sat in it and he confirmed that there is indeed a very odd "shaking" that occurs. There is also a random idle dip, but the two do not seem related. They weren't able to do anything at this time, but I thought the information on my reciept was worth sharing with everyone:

"BMW is aware of the problem. No fix available. BMW recommends to use 89 Octane until fix is determined. Read fault memory of DME. No faults stored."

My personal observations have been that the idle problem is greatly reduced, although not fixed, with 89 vs. 93. Going back to 93 from time to time causes my car to sputter like you wouldn't believe. I was also told in an email that resetting the DME "could" make things worse.

Vatkens, where are thou? I don't need a case number or assistence, just someone to go tell the boys in the lab to hurry it up!

Josh
  #6  
Old 01-21-2004, 06:07 PM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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Sierra Nevada,

I'd been reading that. As soon as my SA gets back from vacation I'm going to ask him about it... I'll keep you posted.

Does anyone know how to look up the details of "service campaign 61-11-03?"

Thanks,

Josh
  #7  
Old 01-21-2004, 06:22 PM
dusterbuster dusterbuster is offline
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hmm, i wonder if the reason why i haven't experienced the odd idling problem since ED last summer is because that was the last time i used high octane gas? here in california, the highest octane you can generally get is 91 at most places, so maybe that's kept the idling ghosts at bay.
  #8  
Old 01-22-2004, 07:39 AM
otacon otacon is offline
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Cold ur odd shaking be from the ignition coils? I had a problem about 2 weeks ago where the car would shake real bad when accelerating from idle to 2K, any gear. The ignition coils had to be replaced, I believe it was a bulletin.

As far as the erratic idle, I never really experienced that, and I've been using 93 Octane since I picked up the car back in June.

Good luck!


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteboy
Hi,

I got the car back from the dealer. SA and I sat in it and he confirmed that there is indeed a very odd "shaking" that occurs. There is also a random idle dip, but the two do not seem related. They weren't able to do anything at this time, but I thought the information on my reciept was worth sharing with everyone:

"BMW is aware of the problem. No fix available. BMW recommends to use 89 Octane until fix is determined. Read fault memory of DME. No faults stored."

My personal observations have been that the idle problem is greatly reduced, although not fixed, with 89 vs. 93. Going back to 93 from time to time causes my car to sputter like you wouldn't believe. I was also told in an email that resetting the DME "could" make things worse.

Vatkens, where are thou? I don't need a case number or assistence, just someone to go tell the boys in the lab to hurry it up!

Josh
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2004, 08:45 AM
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KU Ned KU Ned is offline
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I had the idle problem a few times and then this past weekend the car lost power and shuddered. It turns out that at least two coils went bad. I had the car towed to the dealer and they replaced all six under warranty. The car runs great now. Looking back, I think one or two coils started to go bad a while back but it was gradual and I did not notice the loss in power and loss of BMW inline 6 smoothness. Now it is like new again.

Maybe have your dealer check the coils.
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  #10  
Old 01-22-2004, 09:01 AM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input. The SA and I talked about that... He said that if the coils "failed" even once that a fault would be recorded and the SES light would come on. After sitting in the car his comment was that it felt as if on of the cylinders was having Sporadic firing problems, but it couldn't be a complete mis-fire as the computer would capture that.

Can coils fail "halfway?" I'd sort of thought they either worked or didn't, but will be the first to admit I know almost nothing about engines.

Last night under light gas pedal pressure in 3rd gear the car wouldn't accelerate. It was "lugging." More gas pressure induced more "lug" until it finally broke free and accelerated again. All this keeps pointing to spark or fuel delivery problems to me, but so far it's not bad enough to register any faults.

It is getting worse with time, so I keep hoping that whatever it is will go ahead and break and I can get it fixed.

Josh
  #11  
Old 01-22-2004, 09:16 AM
otacon otacon is offline
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Yeah, it sounds a lot like the issue I had. Mine issue was, it wasn't accelerating much and shook real bad when under 2k, but after 2k, it went smooth and all the power kicked in.

I had no fault codes or engine lights, but I was near my dealer and the tech went for a ride with me. He immediatly said that it is 99% a coil issue and replaced all 6 under warrenty. Now it's as good as new.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteboy
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input. The SA and I talked about that... He said that if the coils "failed" even once that a fault would be recorded and the SES light would come on. After sitting in the car his comment was that it felt as if on of the cylinders was having Sporadic firing problems, but it couldn't be a complete mis-fire as the computer would capture that.

Can coils fail "halfway?" I'd sort of thought they either worked or didn't, but will be the first to admit I know almost nothing about engines.

Last night under light gas pedal pressure in 3rd gear the car wouldn't accelerate. It was "lugging." More gas pressure induced more "lug" until it finally broke free and accelerated again. All this keeps pointing to spark or fuel delivery problems to me, but so far it's not bad enough to register any faults.

It is getting worse with time, so I keep hoping that whatever it is will go ahead and break and I can get it fixed.

Josh
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E46 M3:
S.Grey/Black|Xenon|Heated Seats|Moon Roof|HK|Power Seats|Lumbar|Rear Shade|PDC|Titan Shadow Trim|NAV|AUX|CSL Wheels|Alpine 6 disc MP3 changer|Euro Fire extinguisher|Euro medkit|DDE|OEM CSL Bootlid|UUC Evo3 SSK|Vorsteiner CSL Diffuser

E46 330i ZHP - Mods so far:
GruppeM CAI|DDE|Euro Clears|BMW Bluetooth kit||UUC StrutBarbarian|BMW TV module|ACS Roof Spoiler|BMW Euro Clubsport splitters|Illuminated Door Sills|Euro Med Kit|Euro Fire Extinguisher|SPP 9006(55W) Fogs
  #12  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:18 PM
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MMME30W MMME30W is offline
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Yikes, had this happen to me this afternoon. Temps in the mid 60s (Orlando), had switched A/C off. Idleing at stop light, went to 400-500 RPM (real rough) then recovered with no further incident.

I have an appointment at the end fo the month for the rattle in the clutch take up I'll see if they can look at this as well.

rj
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:35 PM
kiteboy kiteboy is offline
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My problems have continued and worsened...

The shuddering is still there (idle never really dips, whole car just shudders when at rest). Also, my MPG is very low (same as my 2003 M3) at 19-20 MPG. During mild acceleration the engine "sputters" at around 2k, 3k, and 4k, before it takes off and goes smoothly. "Sputter" might not be the right word, what happens is the car jerks as if I had it floored, let go of the gas, and then floored it again. It's very noticable to all in the car (they think I'm a bad driver). If the car sits for 2-3 days then when I start it the whole body shakes for about 60 seconds and the RPM shoots up to 1.2k or so. This is regardless of outside temperature. Lastly, my exhaust smells strongly like rotten eggs from time to time (especially after a lot of driving, but not always after so it's confusing).

I've been keeping my awesome service deparment and BMWNA well aware of the problem. I'm meeting and test driving with a BMWNA tech later in the month. Keep your fingers crossed!

Josh
  #14  
Old 03-09-2004, 07:40 PM
e46shift e46shift is offline
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good luck, keep us update
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  #15  
Old 03-10-2004, 05:44 AM
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Yes keep us updated, I have been experiencing the same problem with my car (01 325) for the last couple of weeks. The car will shudder and vibrate with no drop in rpms... very very strange.

Could this problem be is related to the switch in the Chicago area from winter to summer gas formulas?
  #16  
Old 03-10-2004, 12:58 PM
SWM3 SWM3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteboy
My problems have continued and worsened...

Lastly, my exhaust smells strongly like rotten eggs from time to time (especially after a lot of driving, but not always after so it's confusing).
Your catalytic converters may be clogged! I went through this with my (now sold) 03 Mustang Cobra. Caused all sorts of idle problems. Not to mention thinking that I ran over a skunk every other day. About half of all first run Cobras had to have them replaced.

After a drive and engine still running, look underneath car to see if the Converters are glowing. They can still be clogged if not glowing however. This was a major issue for the Cobras. Drove everyone nuts.

Check out this website and do a search for catalytic converters in 2002 and 2003: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...php?forumid=81
  #17  
Old 03-26-2004, 05:32 AM
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RChoudry RChoudry is offline
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Idle and emissions issue are usually fixed quickly because of EPA regulations. It's hard for a company to let emissions problems go unsolved. The NHTSA site is useful for complaining about idle, engine issues and their possible safety impact including idling/stalling problems.

Please post these problems there so BMWNA has some impetus to come up with a fix.
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  #18  
Old 04-01-2004, 09:21 AM
mathewquick mathewquick is offline
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Bs

This is ridiculous.

My car should not be:
- having idle problems
- having power loss issues
- or stalling on me whenever it sees fit

The first two are extremely annoying and affect the general operation and enjoyment of the automobile. The third how ever affects the drivablity and safety of my little death trap that I have been driving around.

I was rounding an easy, but blind, corner a while back and decided to coast the corner so I fully engaged the clutch and as I was coming around I noticed the guy in front of me had come to a dead stop. Needless to say the fact that my car stalled in this situation could have led to a rather nasty little accident had I not immediately realized what had happend with my car and performed what I have, in looking back, termed my "OH SH*T I'M GONNA DIE" maneuver.

I find it unacceptable that BMWNA has no fix for this right now and I find it doubly unacceptable that they have even considered suggesting that my SA tell me to just "deal" with it until June or July when the new software will be available.

The above "little" near miss is not something I want to repeat.
  #19  
Old 04-01-2004, 09:54 AM
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Matthewquick,

please contact BMW NA 1-800-831-1117 and file a complaint.

then, go to the www.nhtsa.com website and file a defect complaint or call them. Things like safety and emissions problems get priority in repair over radios and climate control.

I really think that enough pressure will help resolve this problem faster.

Please let us know what you do.
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The five Dís of dodgeball: dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

-2006 Z4 M Roadster (Sapphire Black/imola red)...12/9/2006
-2006 M3 ZCP Interlagos blue/black via PCD 11/29/2005
-2004 330i ZHP Imola red/black alcantara CPO 1/2008
-1999 Audi A4 1.8tQ (Jaspis Green/Black)
-1986 325es (Zinnoberot red/Pearl)
  #20  
Old 04-01-2004, 11:53 AM
mathewquick mathewquick is offline
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RChoudry:

If they give my car back to me this time without fixing the problem:

A) I will file an official complaint at that website. [Thanks for the info.]
B) I will be contacting someone here regarding the stipulations of Ohio's Lemon Law.

I worry less about myself getting into an accident the next time the car stalls while I am driving and more about my fiance when she is driving around with the kids in the car.

Quick
  #21  
Old 04-01-2004, 12:13 PM
mathewquick mathewquick is offline
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BMW NA Compliant

RChoudry:

I just got off the phone with BMWNA and filed a complaint. Although the guy I talked to is obviously one of many who take calls he said this was his first call regarding the issue.

EVERYONE who is experiencing this issue needs to call BMW NA 1-800-831-1117 and file a complaint. Don't bother calling that Brian guy from the another thread you may have read. The more reps that get calls about this problem the better.

The call took me 5 minutes at most to complete so I REALLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE to spend the 5 minutes and call them to file a complaint. It may not help your immediate situation but I feel it will help everyone as a whole in the long run.

Quick
  #22  
Old 08-23-2004, 10:11 PM
kurichan kurichan is offline
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I had my DME updated for the idle fluctuation. Today I noticed that the car now shudders like described in this thread. I'm almost certain it didn't before the DME was reprogrammed. You'd think that for $40K, BMW could build a car that could IDLE! It could be the same problem, with slightly different symptoms...
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  #23  
Old 08-24-2004, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathewquick
RChoudry:

I just got off the phone with BMWNA and filed a complaint. Although the guy I talked to is obviously one of many who take calls he said this was his first call regarding the issue.

EVERYONE who is experiencing this issue needs to call BMW NA 1-800-831-1117 and file a complaint. Don't bother calling that Brian guy from the another thread you may have read. The more reps that get calls about this problem the better.

The call took me 5 minutes at most to complete so I REALLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE to spend the 5 minutes and call them to file a complaint. It may not help your immediate situation but I feel it will help everyone as a whole in the long run.

Quick
Don`t be so naieve....do you *really* think the CS rep is gonna say "Oh yeah, you`re the eleven thousand-four hundred-and ninety-sixth customer with the same complaint"???? ALL their responses are pre-programmed and calculated to whatever the company dictates....unless you back it up with a formal complaint to NHTSA, you`re wasting your time....

Regards,
Bob
  #24  
Old 08-24-2004, 08:07 AM
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a formal complaint was received by NHTSA. I got an acknowledgement letter weeks ago. I even got a call from a guy at NHTSA who wanted to know more about the issue and since then I have not heard anymore about it.

It seems that the DME upgrade has helped most of the folks with the problem. I think Kurichan is the first to have an unsatisfactory result.

Any others??
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The five Dís of dodgeball: dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

-2006 Z4 M Roadster (Sapphire Black/imola red)...12/9/2006
-2006 M3 ZCP Interlagos blue/black via PCD 11/29/2005
-2004 330i ZHP Imola red/black alcantara CPO 1/2008
-1999 Audi A4 1.8tQ (Jaspis Green/Black)
-1986 325es (Zinnoberot red/Pearl)
  #25  
Old 08-24-2004, 09:57 AM
kurichan kurichan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RChoudry
It seems that the DME upgrade has helped most of the folks with the problem. I think Kurichan is the first to have an unsatisfactory result.

Any others??
RChoudry - just to be clear, either (1) the original problem was fixed (400-600 RPM fluctuation) and there is a new problem, or (2) what they did to fix the idle fluctuation CAUSED the rough shuddering idle. Now the tach fluctuates about 100 RPMs, more quickly, and the engine idles rough and the car shudders. Pathetic really.

Either way, my car still does not idle correctly.
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